Overtaught?(did I spell that wrong?)

[stormcaller]

Ok, I've been meaning to talk about this one for a while so having just finished the Demon Soul I think I can tear myself away before starting The Sundering(Warcraft books, got a collection of the trilogy for my bday)

Anyhow:

So the last "school teaching" thread didn't go down too well, fair enough. But I've picked up one valid point that I'd really like to talk about and that is- Are we being overtaught at school?

Now, hear me out I agree the teacher should have a little more control, not quite the cane but just able to fully handle his/her class.

But I think the main problem children especially my age (14 and up) have with school is that what we are learning is in no way practical or useful. In fact I believe it fair to say you stop needing the majority of what you learn by year 7.

If the pointless bull was cut out of the curriculum then teachers would have more time to focus on the neccessaries and the basics.

Again I understand, for this to exist then someone,somewhere must have need of it. But for example, I think that if you want to get a job that requires you have knowledge of graphing lines or how to separate colours in a pen then fine, choose it as a part of what you want to learn when you get to school.

With the work cut, the students will learn better, the teachers are able to easily come back to stuff for revision and overall school days can be shorter and holidays longer.

(In my little pseudo-rant I'm generally attacking Maths but a lot of the other stuff is filled with loads of crap too)

So do you have any ideas or opinions on the matter?, or want to flame me because back in your day the teacher taught and the students listened?

 

[zacaron]

I agree kids are becoming harder to handle and teachers need a better way to control them, In my school the grade 9s are becoming a bad influence on the higher grades because a large percentage of the grade 9s are drinking, smoking, getting high and some even do It at school.
so there was a rash of suspensions but now the problem childs are back so things have returned to normal... IE suck.

 

[Kogarian]

No. I believed the same thing when I was your age. But having physics and chemistry improved my math skills. Geography improved my knowledge of biology. It all works together and broadens your mind. You should learn as much as possible, because it gives you an advantage over your peers. Because competition is one thing we'll never be able to escape.

Besides, school is basically a large program to keep kid's asses off the street while their parents work. I won't forget the day I had a teacher tell me that.

 

[Zetona]

No. I believed the same thing when I was your age. But having physics and chemistry improved my math skills. Geography improved my knowledge of biology. It all works together and broadens your mind. You should learn as much as possible, because it gives you an advantage over your peers. Because competition is one thing we'll never be able to escape.

Besides, school is basically a large program to keep kid's asses off the street while their parents work. I won't forget the day I had a teacher tell me that.

Agreed. Plus, the advanced stuff can be fun to learn.

I think the biggest challenge these days is getting kids to have fun in school again. Hire better teachers, put mood lighting throughout the building, I don't know. But if kids want to learn, they will learn better and they will contribute more to society.

 

[Handofpwn]

No. I believed the same thing when I was your age. But having physics and chemistry improved my math skills. Geography improved my knowledge of biology. It all works together and broadens your mind. You should learn as much as possible, because it gives you an advantage over your peers. Because competition is one thing we'll never be able to escape.

Besides, school is basically a large program to keep kid's asses off the street while their parents work. I won't forget the day I had a teacher tell me that.

My government teacher told me the exact same thing. It was rather enlightening.

 

[Splyth]

how do you know what is and is not a valid thing to teach? I'll admit that while in high school I had the same thoughts as you. but how are you supposed to know what you want to take if you've never had any experience with it before?

so make it useful to you. do you want to know how to make water catch on fire? how to not blow yourself up when mixing chemicals? that all requires algebra. it's like learning phonics. you absolutely hate it when you learn it but give it a little bit of time and you realize just why you had to slog through it all. The next time you're having trouble see if you can't get your teacher to explain what you can do with it. in real life examples. also I learned in a psych class that if you do this, understand how this knowledge can benefit you then you'll learn it faster and retain it longer. seek to understand why you need this knowledge as well as learning it and you'll do better.

 

[HonorableChairman]

The problem is if kids only had to learn what they wanted they could never be introduced to other things.

Example: I had no interest in history until this year. But now I have a fun and comprehensive class and I enjoy it.

 

[roblikestoskate]

If we postulate that the purpose of school is to teach us how to learn, the actual subject matter used in that process is irrelevant.

fortunately, there's more to it than that. the world is an awfully big place. school is an opportunity for exposure to a few subjects of knowledge before you start making decisions about your life. with a diverse subject matter you will, at best, be well-rounded, have the opportunity to see how subjects connect and overlap, learn what you're good at, learn what your weaknesses are, and maybe have enough information to start planning your future. i realize this is an ideal scenario, so maybe you get half that benefit. that's still something.

still not convinced? well, then, just get good grades if only to better your odds about the future.

 

[Lavi]

I need it to get a CAREER. You think the most useful things were taught before Grade 8? HA, I still don't know syllables. I knew what I was being taught in Grade 8 back in Kindergarden! Those years are the most wasteful! So cut em out. Too dumb to handle? GTFO.

 

[Dele]

thats a wise move letting children choose what they want to be taught, hope you have your entire career plan laid out at 14 and dont aim to deviate from it.

simple fact is you might be dreading some part of a class you havent taken before, you might not have a clue about it but you could do it and it fascinates you.

I have noticed kids are needing instant and constant stimulation to keep their attention but having that focus for an extended period on a specific topic is difficult to achieve.

By 14 they have already had a taste of all subjects and should not be forced to learn things they absolutely detest. Chances are that they wont end up working in such business and let's not even mention the sheer amount of havoc few unmotivated pupils can cause.

 

[pantsoffdanceoff]

I agree, I want to do medicine, now can I go to school and take AP Medical Studies? No.. because of the giant discrepancy between my SAT scores and my GPA, I have to take AVID. I don't know if any one else needs to take this but you would agree that it is the most giant sack of bullshit that's ever been dumped on the American Child. Second, I need to be "well rounded" and thus I have to take two art classes this year. So where the fuck I am supposed to learn anything important when I only have room for three classes which I need to spend on a Math (don't get me started on AP Calculus) history, and LA (don't get me started on that either.) Thus I spend most of my time reading JAMA during these classes and get yelled at for not having my priorities straight.

let's not even mention the sheer amount of havoc few unmotivated pupils can cause.

Heh, I agree, the shit I've done to keep my brain from atrophy.....

 

[Seldon2639]

The question is what we regard as the purpose of education. Speaking as someone who's in a liberal arts program (political science & public policy, in case you're wondering), I can see definite value in teaching more than a technical education. If the purpose of education is to allow us to move down a fairly rigid track of learning only that which will be "useful", then you're completely right.

But, that's not the point of education. We're not just making doctors and lawyers and managers and janitors, we're making citizens. Civic responsibility also includes having some knowledge of the arts, and subjects you "detest". Maybe it's because my father didn't get to go to college, but I was raised with an appreciation for all knowledge, because it's all useful.

I forget who wrote it but there was an essay from a professor written about his response to a student who didn't want to study Hamlet because it wasn't going to be useful. The professor basically said "you're going to spend eight hours a day working, and eight sleeping, and during neither of those activities will being well-read, well-informed, and well-rounded help you at all. But what about the other eight? Will you live a penny-ante life in front of the television, or are you going to have discussions about important things, real things?"

I agree, I want to do medicine, now can I go to school and take AP Medical Studies? No.. because of the giant discrepancy between my SAT scores and my GPA, I have to take AVID. I don't know if any one else needs to take this but you would agree that it is the most giant sack of bullshit that's ever been dumped on the American Child. Second, I need to be "well rounded" and thus I have to take two art classes this year. So where the fuck I am supposed to learn anything important when I only have room for three classes which I need to spend on a Math (don't get me started on AP Calculus) history, and LA (don't get me started on that either.) Thus I spend most of my time reading JAMA during these classes and get yelled at for not having my priorities straight.

let's not even mention the sheer amount of havoc few unmotivated pupils can cause.

Heh, I agree, the shit I've done to keep my brain from atrophy.....

To the first, you're going to be sorely disappointed in medical school. You'll have to learn even the parts of medicine which don't particularly interest you, and you don't just get to read the JAMA. Even if you're really into endocrinology, you'll also learn some dermatology, some nephrology, some immunology, neurology, and gastrointerology. The "discrepancy" you mention is that your GPA sucked, even if your SAT was good. Guess what? Part of being a good doctor is buckling down and doing the work, even when you don't like it. Ask a General Practitioner how much work goes into being knowledgeable, then buckle down, and do the work you're supposed to do, rather than just the work you want to do.

Don't try to defend being an inattentive and disruptive student by claiming it prevents "atrophy". You didn't care about the class, and made the experience worse for others, that's just irresponsible. If you were so knowledgeable about the subjects you're taking that you knew it all, I might find it defensible, but for you it's just that you don't give a damn. Thus, you get bad grades, and you get stuck in AVID. That's getting your just desserts. And, not for nothing, but a school's going to look at how well you were able to buckle down and do the work, not just at the SAT scores.

If you do manage to avoid doing anything in your job, or life, that you find unpleasant or boring, congratulations. But, more likely, you'll eventually have to do work that you don't like. It might be a good skill to learn how to suck it up, be a man (or woman), and deal with it.

 

[Internet Kraken]

No. I believed the same thing when I was your age. But having physics and chemistry improved my math skills. Geography improved my knowledge of biology. It all works together and broadens your mind. You should learn as much as possible, because it gives you an advantage over your peers. Because competition is one thing we'll never be able to escape.

Besides, school is basically a large program to keep kid's asses off the street while their parents work. I won't forget the day I had a teacher tell me that.

This

Even if what they teach you in school may not be relevant at the moment it will come in handy later.

 

[pantsoffdanceoff]

Cut

A) I agree with most of what you said, that I will have to learn a giant load of stuff I don't want to learn and not interested in, in medicine.
B) The point I was trying to make is that I'm forced to take non-academic classes in a school which has always seemed to me to be a place of academics. I take classes seriously even if I don't like them, including AVID, LA, History (I like history actually) and Math, but these are academics. I may have gotten read your post wrong but I was protesting how people are forced to take non-academic classes (P.E. ,ceramics, art.. etc) when they would rather just try and learn something.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

A quick quote that one of my favorite college professors laid on me: "College teaches you how to learn."

Sure, some of the stuff that you learn in high school, college, etc. is stuff that you'll never, ever, think about again after the test. BUT! The mere act of learning is extremely valuable. In general, people who have had to deal with the academic rigor of a university level education have learned how to quickly absorb vast amounts of information and process it, and they've learned how to find that information quickly.

Now here's a bit of personal advice. While in school, I too often felt that a class was worthless. For example, I really did not care for English classes in my freshman and sophomore year of high school. Really did not. Hated the books we read (for the most part) and didn't care for literary criticism or analysis. Today, I am so glad I took those classes because I can apply what I learned then to books I read now. Sure, you can read and understand some mainstream Dan Brown or John Grisham novel without much preparation. Wade through Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian without the proper training, and you will be fucking lost. Which is too bad, because it is a fantastic book.

 

[Juniorjeanpaul]

this is for everyone its not about your biology chemistry or phsics i mean its good to know your knowledge it extends your knowledge base but teachors learn so much that some times its what they want to teach and theres your ups and downs you take certain things out of the things you do learn and some you dont which makes a diffrence because they teach you it all as a full lession and kids do stupid things and its not about were your from society is not to blame the community is there to lift you up not bring you down they smoke to be high they drink to be drunk they have sex to have sex and even tho theres guns violence and all this other nonsence around you go to school for the coze and im sure you know the out side world isnt as the inside the inside could be messy you can clean it up as well as the out side but the outside can only be cleaned up to a certent sercomstance

 

[Dele]

The question is what we regard as the purpose of education. Speaking as someone who's in a liberal arts program (political science & public policy, in case you're wondering), I can see definite value in teaching more than a technical education. If the purpose of education is to allow us to move down a fairly rigid track of learning only that which will be "useful", then you're completely right.

But, that's not the point of education. We're not just making doctors and lawyers and managers and janitors, we're making citizens. Civic responsibility also includes having some knowledge of the arts, and subjects you "detest". Maybe it's because my father didn't get to go to college, but I was raised with an appreciation for all knowledge, because it's all useful.

Up high from the ivory tower comes a command: "No citizen shall freely choose their education as they might end up doing the wrong subjects and not be educated as I see fit."
You have absolutely no responsibility to learn anything whatsoever and your value as a citizen is not tied to your learning process.

I forget who wrote it but there was an essay from a professor written about his response to a student who didn't want to study Hamlet because it wasn't going to be useful. The professor basically said "you're going to spend eight hours a day working, and eight sleeping, and during neither of those activities will being well-read, well-informed, and well-rounded help you at all. But what about the other eight? Will you live a penny-ante life in front of the television, or are you going to have discussions about important things, real things?"

Ah, typical elitism coming from professors. There is absolutely nothing wrong with spending all that time watching television or doing something else that is generally seen as "a waste of time".

*snip*
Don't try to defend being an inattentive and disruptive student by claiming it prevents "atrophy". You didn't care about the class, and made the experience worse for others, that's just irresponsible. If you were so knowledgeable about the subjects you're taking that you knew it all, I might find it defensible, but for you it's just that you don't give a damn.

It's a natural reaction for being forced to do something extremely uninteresting that you give little value to. When 'education' stops being about learning and starts being about unneeded chores you have to do just to reach university, there is something seriously wrong.

Even if what they teach you in school may not be relevant at the moment it will come in handy later.

This can be used to argue for teaching anything from peeling potatoes to teaching Hungarian.