Pat Condell on Bin Laden

[Thaluikhain]

Oh ffs.

The death of Bin Laden is NOT the same as the death of Hitler. Okay, listen carefully:

Hitler died because he chose to kill himself after the Red Army rolled into Berlin, effectively ending the European war. People weren't celebrating the death of a single man, they were celebrating The end of a years-long war that had claimed millions of lives already.

The "War on Terror" is by no means over, not even close. I'll celebrate when all the troops are pulled out of battle and peace is declared.

Exactly. Osama was not vital to the continuance of terrorist actions.

 

[Kolby Jack]

First point: International law does indeed prohibit targeted assassination. That's why the UN is demanding the full details, even if the Secretary-General has personally praised the action. Obama claimed the deed, so he's a war criminal now. However great it may be that Osama is dead, fact is that ordering his death was against the law, because when it becomes a viable solution for dealing with Osama, who is next? Where is the line drawn? And no, you can't say "the order was to kill, but we obviously would have captured him if he surrendered." If that is the intention, that had better be how you phrase your orders, because they will be followed as-is.

Second point: Obama did not inform Pakistan of the mission. There are only two possible reasons for this. Either Pakistan is suspected of being complicit in hiding bin Laden, despite their appearance of support, in which case we could not trust them with the information, or Obama simply continued his pattern of taking military action without discussing it with the appropriate people. We need to know which it is, but this is not being addressed.

Third point: It's hilarious that people pick this topic to attack Bush out of freaking nowhere. Obama attacked Bush's policies and promised to end them, but then, as president, continued and even expanded them, and that led to a lot of valuable information, including that leading to the information that allowed the attack on bin Laden. Obama's even borrowing from Bush's SPEECHES lately. You can not attack Bush in this situation without going through Obama, however much the latter may hate to admit it.

First point: Osama was not just a criminal, he was an enemy combatant against the US, and as this was a military action against an enemy combatant, killing him was legal under international and American law. Call it a loophole if you want, it's still legal.

Second point: The US has long since suspected Pakistan aiding or at least ignoring Osama, so tipping them off would have compromised mission success, and according to international law it is legal for a country to perform an action against a problem on another country's soil if the host country is not willing or able to deal with the problem itself. Pakistan wasn't doing anything about it, so we did. Sounds legal to me.

Third point... I actually agree with this one.

 

[artanis_neravar]

First point: International law does indeed prohibit targeted assassination. That's why the UN is demanding the full details, even if the Secretary-General has personally praised the action. Obama claimed the deed, so he's a war criminal now. However great it may be that Osama is dead, fact is that ordering his death was against the law, because when it becomes a viable solution for dealing with Osama, who is next? Where is the line drawn? And no, you can't say "the order was to kill, but we obviously would have captured him if he surrendered." If that is the intention, that had better be how you phrase your orders, because they will be followed as-is.

Not rue "Targeted killing is the intentional killing?by a government or its agents?of a civilian or "unlawful combatant" targeted by the government, who is not in the government's custody. The target is a person taking part in an armed conflict or terrorism, whether by bearing arms or otherwise, who has thereby lost the immunity from being targeted that he would otherwise have under the Third Geneva Convention."

 

[artanis_neravar]

My take? It's a xenophobic rant by a bigot. Whoop de doo.

I agree that Bin Laden's body should have been returned to the US, but to stand trial and execution, like Saddam. Capital punishment exists in America, Pakistan and Afghanistan, so that shouldn't have been any problem.

Without giving him a trial, the Americans lowered themselves to his level, and there is a huge ideological problem with that. If you are prepared to sacrifice your own standards and ideals in the name of revenge, the future will go very wrong for you. I think it was Ghandi who claimed that "eye for an eye will surely make the world go blind". He was a criminal, so treat him as such. Oh yeah, I forgot, that's how criminals are treated in third world countries like Afghanistan and America

Wow way to lower yourself to petty insults. If you want to see why the SEALs had every reason to kill him see my earlier post (the second one)

How have I lowered myself? They weren't petty insults, they were valid observations. America has so many third world-esque politics, laws and attitudes it's incredible. No other western country is nearly as behind as they are in this respect. Being able to make money is the only thing that promotes America to the first world, and you are slowly falling behind other countries on that level too.

I did read your post, and it is kind of irrelevant. America broke international law, because it thinks that it runs the world. It doesn't, terrorism hasn't been defeated, and you've pissed of a nuclear equipped country. Great job guys!

Had he been arrested, a shit load of problems could have been resolved. Not all of them granted, but better than the shitty job it took America ten damn years to do.

Considering a third world country is anything that is not capitalism or communism yes you did.
The quality of life in America is better than almost any other country, people flock here from all around the world to get a better life, most medical and scientific advances stem from America. Also my argument is completely relevant as it explains why he wasn't arrested. Also America broke no international laws

 

[Verlander]

My take? It's a xenophobic rant by a bigot. Whoop de doo.

I agree that Bin Laden's body should have been returned to the US, but to stand trial and execution, like Saddam. Capital punishment exists in America, Pakistan and Afghanistan, so that shouldn't have been any problem.

Without giving him a trial, the Americans lowered themselves to his level, and there is a huge ideological problem with that. If you are prepared to sacrifice your own standards and ideals in the name of revenge, the future will go very wrong for you. I think it was Ghandi who claimed that "eye for an eye will surely make the world go blind". He was a criminal, so treat him as such. Oh yeah, I forgot, that's how criminals are treated in third world countries like Afghanistan and America

Wow way to lower yourself to petty insults. If you want to see why the SEALs had every reason to kill him see my earlier post (the second one)

How have I lowered myself? They weren't petty insults, they were valid observations. America has so many third world-esque politics, laws and attitudes it's incredible. No other western country is nearly as behind as they are in this respect. Being able to make money is the only thing that promotes America to the first world, and you are slowly falling behind other countries on that level too.

I did read your post, and it is kind of irrelevant. America broke international law, because it thinks that it runs the world. It doesn't, terrorism hasn't been defeated, and you've pissed of a nuclear equipped country. Great job guys!

Had he been arrested, a shit load of problems could have been resolved. Not all of them granted, but better than the shitty job it took America ten damn years to do.

Considering a third world country is anything that is not capitalism or communism yes you did.
The quality of life in America is better than almost any other country, people flock here from all around the world to get a better life, most medical and scientific advances stem from America. Also my argument is completely relevant as it explains why he wasn't arrested. Also America broke no international laws

a) the definition of third world began that way in the cold war, but isn't a literal guide anymore. Many countries that have a form of capitalist or communist government are still referred to as "third world".

b)The quality of life in America is better than your definition of third world countries, but it's among the poorest in quality of the 1st world countries.

c) People can't flock to America, the immigrations rules are too tight. If you honestly think the meagre dripping of people into America country is "flocking", you're in for a shock

d) Most medical advances occur in the Space station, an international collaboration, and most technological advances happen distributed between Japan, Europe AND America. Also, historically, advances happen in richer areas, which America has been for the last 70 years.

e) America did break international law, which is why the UN is pissed off. I'm not making shit up to be contrary, it's the way it is.

Anyway, our opinion differs. I respect yours even though I don't agree with it.

 

[artanis_neravar]

My take? It's a xenophobic rant by a bigot. Whoop de doo.

I agree that Bin Laden's body should have been returned to the US, but to stand trial and execution, like Saddam. Capital punishment exists in America, Pakistan and Afghanistan, so that shouldn't have been any problem.

Without giving him a trial, the Americans lowered themselves to his level, and there is a huge ideological problem with that. If you are prepared to sacrifice your own standards and ideals in the name of revenge, the future will go very wrong for you. I think it was Ghandi who claimed that "eye for an eye will surely make the world go blind". He was a criminal, so treat him as such. Oh yeah, I forgot, that's how criminals are treated in third world countries like Afghanistan and America

Wow way to lower yourself to petty insults. If you want to see why the SEALs had every reason to kill him see my earlier post (the second one)

How have I lowered myself? They weren't petty insults, they were valid observations. America has so many third world-esque politics, laws and attitudes it's incredible. No other western country is nearly as behind as they are in this respect. Being able to make money is the only thing that promotes America to the first world, and you are slowly falling behind other countries on that level too.

I did read your post, and it is kind of irrelevant. America broke international law, because it thinks that it runs the world. It doesn't, terrorism hasn't been defeated, and you've pissed of a nuclear equipped country. Great job guys!

Had he been arrested, a shit load of problems could have been resolved. Not all of them granted, but better than the shitty job it took America ten damn years to do.

Considering a third world country is anything that is not capitalism or communism yes you did.
The quality of life in America is better than almost any other country, people flock here from all around the world to get a better life, most medical and scientific advances stem from America. Also my argument is completely relevant as it explains why he wasn't arrested. Also America broke no international laws

a) the definition of third world began that way in the cold war, but isn't a literal guide anymore. Many countries that have a form of capitalist or communist government are still referred to as "third world".

b)The quality of life in America is better than your definition of third world countries, but it's among the poorest in quality of the 1st world countries.

c) People can't flock to America, the immigrations rules are too tight. If you honestly think the meagre dripping of people into America country is "flocking", you're in for a shock

d) Most medical advances occur in the Space station, an international collaboration, and most technological advances happen distributed between Japan, Europe AND America. Also, historically, advances happen in richer areas, which America has been for the last 70 years.

e) America did break international law, which is why the UN is pissed off. I'm not making shit up to be contrary, it's the way it is.

Anyway, our opinion differs. I respect yours even though I don't agree with it.

I also respect your opinion, I would like to point out that the targeted killing of a armed combatant or terrorist is not against the Geneva Convention

 

[LordFisheh]

I was all for this guy for the first half of the video. Then he started not only mocking the concept of being sensitive to the nation you're occupying so as not to hand the enemy recruits on a plate but piling on the durr-Islam-is-evil subtext. Cowboy tactics don't win modern wars, and no amount of wishing that we can indiscriminately kick ass (dead + Vietnamese = VC, after all) for a while, automatically win and be back in time for apple pie will change that.

 

[Verlander]

My take? It's a xenophobic rant by a bigot. Whoop de doo.

I agree that Bin Laden's body should have been returned to the US, but to stand trial and execution, like Saddam. Capital punishment exists in America, Pakistan and Afghanistan, so that shouldn't have been any problem.

Without giving him a trial, the Americans lowered themselves to his level, and there is a huge ideological problem with that. If you are prepared to sacrifice your own standards and ideals in the name of revenge, the future will go very wrong for you. I think it was Ghandi who claimed that "eye for an eye will surely make the world go blind". He was a criminal, so treat him as such. Oh yeah, I forgot, that's how criminals are treated in third world countries like Afghanistan and America

Wow way to lower yourself to petty insults. If you want to see why the SEALs had every reason to kill him see my earlier post (the second one)

How have I lowered myself? They weren't petty insults, they were valid observations. America has so many third world-esque politics, laws and attitudes it's incredible. No other western country is nearly as behind as they are in this respect. Being able to make money is the only thing that promotes America to the first world, and you are slowly falling behind other countries on that level too.

I did read your post, and it is kind of irrelevant. America broke international law, because it thinks that it runs the world. It doesn't, terrorism hasn't been defeated, and you've pissed of a nuclear equipped country. Great job guys!

Had he been arrested, a shit load of problems could have been resolved. Not all of them granted, but better than the shitty job it took America ten damn years to do.

Considering a third world country is anything that is not capitalism or communism yes you did.
The quality of life in America is better than almost any other country, people flock here from all around the world to get a better life, most medical and scientific advances stem from America. Also my argument is completely relevant as it explains why he wasn't arrested. Also America broke no international laws

a) the definition of third world began that way in the cold war, but isn't a literal guide anymore. Many countries that have a form of capitalist or communist government are still referred to as "third world".

b)The quality of life in America is better than your definition of third world countries, but it's among the poorest in quality of the 1st world countries.

c) People can't flock to America, the immigrations rules are too tight. If you honestly think the meagre dripping of people into America country is "flocking", you're in for a shock

d) Most medical advances occur in the Space station, an international collaboration, and most technological advances happen distributed between Japan, Europe AND America. Also, historically, advances happen in richer areas, which America has been for the last 70 years.

e) America did break international law, which is why the UN is pissed off. I'm not making shit up to be contrary, it's the way it is.

Anyway, our opinion differs. I respect yours even though I don't agree with it.

I also respect your opinion, I would like to point out that the targeted killing of a armed combatant or terrorist is not against the Geneva Convention

I guess that's the controversy. The thing is, the Un runs on the assumption that people are innocent until proven guilty (hence the need for trial), and so until America released any sort of footage (which the UN have requested they do) people are always going to be split.

I'm glad he's dead, but nothing anyone says, least of all Pat Condell, is going to remove that feeling of unease and uncertainty about the situation that many people have.

 

[artanis_neravar]

My take? It's a xenophobic rant by a bigot. Whoop de doo.

I agree that Bin Laden's body should have been returned to the US, but to stand trial and execution, like Saddam. Capital punishment exists in America, Pakistan and Afghanistan, so that shouldn't have been any problem.

Without giving him a trial, the Americans lowered themselves to his level, and there is a huge ideological problem with that. If you are prepared to sacrifice your own standards and ideals in the name of revenge, the future will go very wrong for you. I think it was Ghandi who claimed that "eye for an eye will surely make the world go blind". He was a criminal, so treat him as such. Oh yeah, I forgot, that's how criminals are treated in third world countries like Afghanistan and America

Wow way to lower yourself to petty insults. If you want to see why the SEALs had every reason to kill him see my earlier post (the second one)

How have I lowered myself? They weren't petty insults, they were valid observations. America has so many third world-esque politics, laws and attitudes it's incredible. No other western country is nearly as behind as they are in this respect. Being able to make money is the only thing that promotes America to the first world, and you are slowly falling behind other countries on that level too.

I did read your post, and it is kind of irrelevant. America broke international law, because it thinks that it runs the world. It doesn't, terrorism hasn't been defeated, and you've pissed of a nuclear equipped country. Great job guys!

Had he been arrested, a shit load of problems could have been resolved. Not all of them granted, but better than the shitty job it took America ten damn years to do.

Considering a third world country is anything that is not capitalism or communism yes you did.
The quality of life in America is better than almost any other country, people flock here from all around the world to get a better life, most medical and scientific advances stem from America. Also my argument is completely relevant as it explains why he wasn't arrested. Also America broke no international laws

a) the definition of third world began that way in the cold war, but isn't a literal guide anymore. Many countries that have a form of capitalist or communist government are still referred to as "third world".

b)The quality of life in America is better than your definition of third world countries, but it's among the poorest in quality of the 1st world countries.

c) People can't flock to America, the immigrations rules are too tight. If you honestly think the meagre dripping of people into America country is "flocking", you're in for a shock

d) Most medical advances occur in the Space station, an international collaboration, and most technological advances happen distributed between Japan, Europe AND America. Also, historically, advances happen in richer areas, which America has been for the last 70 years.

e) America did break international law, which is why the UN is pissed off. I'm not making shit up to be contrary, it's the way it is.

Anyway, our opinion differs. I respect yours even though I don't agree with it.

I also respect your opinion, I would like to point out that the targeted killing of a armed combatant or terrorist is not against the Geneva Convention

I guess that's the controversy. The thing is, the Un runs on the assumption that people are innocent until proven guilty (hence the need for trial), and so until America released any sort of footage (which the UN have requested they do) people are always going to be split.

I'm glad he's dead, but nothing anyone says, least of all Pat Condell, is going to remove that feeling of unease and uncertainty about the situation that many people have.

He did create the video claiming responsibility for 9-11, but I do see your point, and I also agree about who ever this guy in the video is, I actually came here to request that people stop making the Bin Laden threads because all they are going to do is result in arguments

 

[LordFisheh]

The US did not break international law. Bin Laden was not a government official, or a civilian, or innocent in any way. He had renounced his innocence by declaring war on the United States, and thus, he was an enemy combatant. Guess what. In war, combatants die. Get over it.

The people who are bitching at America for the killing of Osama... they will stop at nothing to find some way to cut down my country for better or for worse. Even some of the people who live in our supposed European allied countries, who act as though America is their emergency response vehicle and nothing more, who have been bombed repeatedly by Al Qaeda over the years, are up in arms in opposition of Osama's death. It's unprecedented.

This is not about what's right or wrong. It's what the anti-american armchair ranters want to believe. The truth, and what's real, does not matter. Just believe what makes you feel better. Though my spider sense is telling me that half of those against Osama's death are pure trolls, and nothing more. People who feel that they must elevate themselves by attempting to belittle and enflame other people, even if it means offering their support and lamentation at the death of the worst terrorist in recent history.

Yes, you can make a reasonable argument that the tactical value of killing Osama is highly marginal. However, he certainly did not deserve the dignity of a team of lawyers.

I fail to see what makes 'anti-american' a bad attribute. America has done a lot of things, many good, many despicable. The rest of the world does not owe you a debt of unquestioning support. Many times, America has gone against Europe in its own self interest. In the Cold War, it happily worked against European peace to keep people hugging close to NATO and US authority. Recently, the CIA was caught advising European leaders on how to convince their people to support the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan - I believe the advice to France went along the lines of 'exaggerate and emphasise the treatment of women'. Hardly the actions of a friend to the European people. It's also worth mentioning that NATO also followed America into the Middle East in revenge for an attack on your soil - Europe definitely didn't come pleading to its 'emergency response', begging for protection.

For the record, I'm totally for the killing. Nothing wrong with targeting enemy command staff.

 

[ralfy]

Osama bin Laden and other mujahedeen were recruited by Saudi Arabia, trained by Pakistan, and financed by the U.S. After 9-11, I think Osama was wanted not for that crime but for the '93 incident. Meanwhile, authorities know of his co-conspirators' whereabouts but hardly anyone has been arrested or questioned about the crime.

Also, Pakistani training and support for the Al Qaeda has been known for years, and now various anomalies are appearing about the present event.

 

[Verlander]

My take? It's a xenophobic rant by a bigot. Whoop de doo.

I agree that Bin Laden's body should have been returned to the US, but to stand trial and execution, like Saddam. Capital punishment exists in America, Pakistan and Afghanistan, so that shouldn't have been any problem.

Without giving him a trial, the Americans lowered themselves to his level, and there is a huge ideological problem with that. If you are prepared to sacrifice your own standards and ideals in the name of revenge, the future will go very wrong for you. I think it was Ghandi who claimed that "eye for an eye will surely make the world go blind". He was a criminal, so treat him as such. Oh yeah, I forgot, that's how criminals are treated in third world countries like Afghanistan and America

Wow way to lower yourself to petty insults. If you want to see why the SEALs had every reason to kill him see my earlier post (the second one)

How have I lowered myself? They weren't petty insults, they were valid observations. America has so many third world-esque politics, laws and attitudes it's incredible. No other western country is nearly as behind as they are in this respect. Being able to make money is the only thing that promotes America to the first world, and you are slowly falling behind other countries on that level too.

I did read your post, and it is kind of irrelevant. America broke international law, because it thinks that it runs the world. It doesn't, terrorism hasn't been defeated, and you've pissed of a nuclear equipped country. Great job guys!

Had he been arrested, a shit load of problems could have been resolved. Not all of them granted, but better than the shitty job it took America ten damn years to do.

Considering a third world country is anything that is not capitalism or communism yes you did.
The quality of life in America is better than almost any other country, people flock here from all around the world to get a better life, most medical and scientific advances stem from America. Also my argument is completely relevant as it explains why he wasn't arrested. Also America broke no international laws

a) the definition of third world began that way in the cold war, but isn't a literal guide anymore. Many countries that have a form of capitalist or communist government are still referred to as "third world".

b)The quality of life in America is better than your definition of third world countries, but it's among the poorest in quality of the 1st world countries.

c) People can't flock to America, the immigrations rules are too tight. If you honestly think the meagre dripping of people into America country is "flocking", you're in for a shock

d) Most medical advances occur in the Space station, an international collaboration, and most technological advances happen distributed between Japan, Europe AND America. Also, historically, advances happen in richer areas, which America has been for the last 70 years.

e) America did break international law, which is why the UN is pissed off. I'm not making shit up to be contrary, it's the way it is.

Anyway, our opinion differs. I respect yours even though I don't agree with it.

I also respect your opinion, I would like to point out that the targeted killing of a armed combatant or terrorist is not against the Geneva Convention

I guess that's the controversy. The thing is, the Un runs on the assumption that people are innocent until proven guilty (hence the need for trial), and so until America released any sort of footage (which the UN have requested they do) people are always going to be split.

I'm glad he's dead, but nothing anyone says, least of all Pat Condell, is going to remove that feeling of unease and uncertainty about the situation that many people have.

He did create the video claiming responsibility for 9-11, but I do see your point, and I also agree about who ever this guy in the video is, I actually came here to request that people stop making the Bin Laden threads because all they are going to do is result in arguments

Ah. Oops. Sorry about that!