Paypal Screwed Me Over

[ultimatechance]

So this is a little bit of me bitching on something that just happened to me. I sent a copy of GTA4 to a seller on Ebay for $40 US. The seller paid me on the spot, and i sent the item shortly after. All's well.

Then paypal randomly opens up a security dispute, claiming that there is "suspicion" that there is fraud involved. I emailed the dude to make sure he got the item, and he said yeah. I replied to the dispute, saying that he got the item, so theres no need for a dispute. Paypal ends up reversing the funds back to him after a two weeks "review". I contacted the seller, telling him to manually return me the $40, but he has ignored it for almost a week. So now that I have called paypal, they have told me that the claim was made on reasonable suspicion. I told her that I can show her the proof that he had received it, but then she goes on with this BS that i didnt respond to the dispute in time, when i did. When i asked her the possible ways to resolve the dispute, she said only one way. That one way was to provide a tracking number.

Now heres the problem. What if i sold a MS points card, a book, or a bunch of diamonds for that matter. All of those things can fit within an envolope, and cannot be provided with a tracking number, and even if they could, does everyone really keep it after they ship? What if i had sold a WoW account, or a code for something over ebay? I cant prove shit that I sent it. And yet, paypal will reverse your funds if you dont have a tracking number. Thats the problem there.

Paypal needs to their own fucking job, and nothing else. Let me withdraw, deposit, and send money over the internet. Thats all there is to it, they dont need to be the fucking police, because that just ends up screwing people like me over. No one should be guilty until proven beyond reasonable doubt, and yet paypal does it over a hunch.

/bitching

UPDATE: I got my money back, but only because the guy was nice enough to return the money. However, the issue still stands that if he had not been a nice guy, this still would have happened.

 

[Stevato]

Sounds very unlucky dude, can't say i've had any problems with paypal before but i can understand your frustration at this.

I always imagined that if you could prove that the buyer recieved the item it would be resolved but apparently not, so thanks for the heads up

 

[thatstheguy]

Lesson learned. Sell your games at Gamespot (or other stores).

 

[Erana]

So, isn't that kinda just plain theft?

 

[Rednog]

Paypal is really bad and people really need to stop using it in general. Their policies of disputes really favor the buyers and screw over the seller's completely. I had sold an item for $500 and all was well and like 6 months later I got a dispute. I called them up and I was like, well I sent it to him and there was no complaint and all of a sudden 6 months later the person gets to complain? Don't you guys think there is something fishy about that? I really didn't keep many records 2 months after an item was sold, so I didn't have any proof that the person had received the item. I did some research and found that paypal can take money directly from your bank account in a dispute so I went to my bank and told them that I wouldn't allow any transactions from paypal. My bank called me up like a week later and said that there were repeated attempts by paypal to remove funds from my account so I told them to close it and open a new account. Paypal filed with a collection agency and I filed with a lawyer, they magically decided to overturn the case when they heard that.
Shady business practices that clearly overstep their boundaries...


Paypal has had a multitude of complaints from people setting up bs accounts buying alot of crap and then setting up multiple disputes and people run away with both money and items.

 

[ultimatechance]

Lesson learned. Sell your games at Gamespot (or other stores).

Heres how it is though. Ebay is run by trusted users, and sellers who dont receive the item until payment is made. Its a great system, and gets me 5-10x the amount if would get from gamestop (Eb games in canada). However, paypal is supposed to be like your online debit account, nothing more. How would you like it if you went to your bank one day, and see your money reversed just because they had suspsicion that the guy you bought from was a suspicious guy?

 

[ultimatechance]

Paypal is really bad and people really need to stop using it in general. Their policies of disputes really favor the buyers and screw over the seller's completely. I had sold an item for $500 and all was well and like 6 months later I got a dispute. I called them up and I was like, well I sent it to him and there was no complaint and all of a sudden 6 months later the person gets to complain? Don't you guys think there is something fishy about that? I really didn't keep many records 2 months after an item was sold, so I didn't have any proof that the person had received the item. I did some research and found that paypal can take money directly from your bank account in a dispute so I went to my bank and told them that I wouldn't allow any transactions from paypal. My bank called me up like a week later and said that there were repeated attempts by paypal to remove funds from my account so I told them to close it and open a new account. Paypal filed with a collection agency and I filed with a lawyer, they magically decided to overturn the case when they heard that.
Shady business practices that clearly overstep their boundaries...

im not willing to hire a lawyer over $40, but had it been much more, than i would. Thats very fishy what you just said. Glad you got what you deserved back.

 

[Rednog]

The main concern of mine was blocking the collection agency, they can tear a hole in your credit if you don't pay up. I was also lucky that I knew the guy (family friend) and all he really had to do was inform paypal that we were filing against them for fraudulent charges against me and general harassment. Paypal is like a bully that as soon as some one stands up to them then hightail it and look for some one else to pick on.

My advice for future exchanges you make through them, if you continue, is to block charges by paypal or find a bank that will protect your rights, sometimes the credit card company you deal with will take on a part of the battle, but for me I use my bank's card and they did help somewhat with advice.

 

[Maet]

I'm all of sudden apprehensive about using the paypal account I made last month. If they favour the buyers over the sellers, as Rednog says, I should be fine. I have no intention to sell things online.

 

[WilliamWhite1]

Fudge.
In a way, I'm now glad that I don't have an account.

 

[Hunde Des Krieg]

That's why I don't use online banking and payment transfer systems.
You'll get fucked over much quicker than you'll get robbed at gunpoint.

Me too. I don't trust the webz with my money.

 

[mattttherman3]

I never use online banking, that way, theres nothing on my computer worth stealing, plus I just hate the waiting for mailed items.

 

[ultimatechance]

That's why I don't use online banking and payment transfer systems.
You'll get fucked over much quicker than you'll get robbed at gunpoint.

i have had a good history with paypal, but this one is just clear random bullshit. I feel like its one of those "THIS COULD HAPPEN TO YOU" stories, that you never really believe till it actually does happen.

 

[cleverlymadeup]

Now heres the problem. What if i sold a MS points card, a book, or a bunch of diamonds for that matter. All of those things can fit within an envolope, and cannot be provided with a tracking number, and even if they could, does everyone really keep it after they ship? What if i had sold a WoW account, or a code for something over ebay? I cant prove shit that I sent it. And yet, paypal will reverse your funds if you dont have a tracking number. Thats the problem there.

wrong they can provide you with a tracking number, you various types of mail with tracking numbers, anything beyond regular postage, ie express post, first class mail and so forth, you just have to pay a bit of extra for it

as for ppl who keep their tracking numbers after they sell things, legally you're supposed to keep it for accounting purposes. also anyone that wants proof they sent something will keep it.

it's not paypal who was being dumb, you got screwed and hosed and you being dumb by not sending things properly didn't help out

 

[ultimatechance]

Now heres the problem. What if i sold a MS points card, a book, or a bunch of diamonds for that matter. All of those things can fit within an envolope, and cannot be provided with a tracking number, and even if they could, does everyone really keep it after they ship? What if i had sold a WoW account, or a code for something over ebay? I cant prove shit that I sent it. And yet, paypal will reverse your funds if you dont have a tracking number. Thats the problem there.

wrong they can provide you with a tracking number, you various types of mail with tracking numbers, anything beyond regular postage, ie express post, first class mail and so forth, you just have to pay a bit of extra for it

as for ppl who keep their tracking numbers after they sell things, legally you're supposed to keep it for accounting purposes. also anyone that wants proof they sent something will keep it.

it's not paypal who was being dumb, you got screwed and hosed and you being dumb by not sending things properly didn't help out

but this is their policy, meaning that this applies to everyone. Theres bound to be several other people who have been a victim to this, and have wrongfully lost money at the expense of maybe a few people getting caught. As a matter of fact theres another one of those people in this thread, and even though he kept his, he lost it by 6 months time. How is that his fault? He shouldnt have to worry about a transaction he made half a year ago. The fact is, not a single should have to deal with this, and there is most likely several other people than just us two. It could even be quite serious if done with thousands of dollars, and for what reason? Because paypal feels like they need to intervene? That is most certainly dumb. If there is fraud involved, leave that for the victim of the scam to dispute it, not for paypal to do it for you, being a third party that knows absolutely nothing about the issue.

Im not a dumb person in this case, because i did what i was supposed to do. I put the item for sale, i received payment, and i sold it. How does that make me dumb at all? I shouldnt have to fear a random dispute just because i failed to ask for a tracking number. In the future im going to keep one, but this never should have happened in the first place.

 

[cleverlymadeup]

but this is their policy, meaning that this applies to everyone. Theres bound to be several other people who have been a victim to this, and have wrongfully lost money at the expense of maybe a few people getting caught. As a matter of fact theres another one of those people in this thread, and even though he kept his, he lost it by 6 months time. How is that his fault? He shouldnt have to worry about a transaction he made half a year ago. The fact is, not a single should have to deal with this, and there is most likely several other people than just us two. It could even be quite serious if done with thousands of dollars, and for what reason? Because paypal feels like they need to intervene? That is most certainly dumb. If there is fraud involved, leave that for the victim of the scam to dispute it, not for paypal to do it for you, being a third party that knows absolutely nothing about the issue.

Im not a dumb person in this case, because i did what i was supposed to do. I put the item for sale, i received payment, and i sold it. How does that make me dumb at all? I shouldnt have to fear a random dispute just because i failed to ask for a tracking number. In the future im going to keep one, but this never should have happened in the first place.

well you did send an item without a verifiable tracking number, it really doesn't cost much more to send it via first class or express post and since the receiver, not the shipper, typically pays it's no money out of your pocket

as for keeping bills and such, most tax laws say you must keep things for at least 7 years and in some cases longer as proof, yes someone can dispute it over 2 years later, so if the tax ppl came to you and asked you for it, you'd be screwed as that's can be considered income

so yes you are dumb cause you didn't get a tracking number as PROOF you sent it, you have no proof you said it cept you saying "yes i sent it" however that's NOT proof, i can say i'm the king of england but until there's proof of it, i'm not the king of england. so you not having proof you shipped something means you didn't ship it in the eyes of the law, unless you have some other way to prove you owned that item before hand that is now in the possession of the other person.

it's pretty basic knowledge to ship things you sell on ebay with a tracking number, heck they even tell you to do so and tell you it's recommended as you have proof incase of disputes.

so this is why you were dumb and you got nailed for it. guess you'll just have to know for the next time to always use a shipping method with a tracking number

http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/close-sale.html#ship <-- right there from ebay themselves

 

[ultimatechance]

snip

so please tell me oh wise one. Why do i need to prove anything. NO ONE had any problems other than paypal over nothing. You use that stupid king of england metaphor, but it doesnt apply. You arent guilty until proven beyond reasonable doubt, but yet the ONLY thing they have on me is the tracking number. You want a proper law analogy? Heres one.

Out of nowhere, the crown (prosecutors in Canada) decided to hold a case on the murder of my best friend. However, the only evidence they have is that he was missing for weeks, and i was the last one to talk to him. However, i dont have anyone to give me an alibi, so now im guilty, which isnt entirely so. Theres still reasonable doubt that I may not be the killer. And to make it even more interesting, the person who really killed him wishes to enter to courtroom to confess, but they simply wont let him because its too much trouble to let him in.

The fact is, that it is only one article of proof, and to say its the ONLY one is completely stupid. There are plenty of ways around it, one including the buyer admitting that he received it. Its not indefinite proof, its just the convenient one for them to use, and even so, NO ONE COMPLAINED. If i spent $40 on an item and the seller never sent, no fucking shit im going to file a complaint. If i was that stupid to let him get away, then I deserve to get scammed. No one should be doing that for me, it makes no sense. If you actually believe that paypal should be doing that for you, then youre dumber than you think.

 

[cleverlymadeup]

so please tell me oh wise one. Why do i need to prove anything. NO ONE had any problems other than paypal over nothing. You use that stupid king of england metaphor, but it doesnt apply. You arent guilty until proven beyond reasonable doubt, but yet the ONLY thing they have on me is the tracking number.

you have no proof you shipped it tho, so you are guilty of not shipping it by lack of evidence as you have no proof of your innocence.

see in credit card disputes, which this one is, you have to prove you sent the item. ie show them emails you received and so forth or DON'T THROW AWAY THE TRACKING NUMBER

You want a proper law analogy? Heres one.

Out of nowhere, the crown (prosecutors in Canada) decided to hold a case on the murder of my best friend. However, the only evidence they have is that he was missing for weeks, and i was the last one to talk to him. However, i dont have anyone to give me an alibi, so now im guilty, which isnt entirely so. Theres still reasonable doubt that I may not be the killer. And to make it even more interesting, the person who really killed him wishes to enter to courtroom to confess, but they simply wont let him because its too much trouble to let him in.

ahhh but this isn't criminal law, this is civil/consumer and those laws are very different, such as with OJ Simpson, he was found not guilty of murder HOWEVER he was charged and found guilty of wrongful death in civil court

nice try but your wrong in your analogy

oh and the crown isn't the prosecutors, that's what is they call the prosecution when it's the government, so you're wrong again

The fact is, that it is only one article of proof, and to say its the ONLY one is completely stupid. There are plenty of ways around it, one including the buyer admitting that he received it. Its not indefinite proof, its just the convenient one for them to use, and even so, NO ONE COMPLAINED. If i spent $40 on an item and the seller never sent, no fucking shit im going to file a complaint. If i was that stupid to let him get away, then I deserve to get scammed. No one should be doing that for me, it makes no sense. If you actually believe that paypal should be doing that for you, then youre dumber than you think.

actually to say the tracking number is the one thing that will clear your name is 100% correct cause in the tracking information there is a "DELIVERED" section of it or if you requested a signature there's a signature attached to it, which furthers your proof that you shipped it

 

[ultimatechance]

snip

you still have yet to acknowledge the fact that he did confess he received it, thus proving my innocence. They just dont want to take the 2 seconds to look at it.

This is also not necessarily civil law in this case. If the seller filed the complaint, that would be civil law. However, Paypal on its own is taking the law into its own hands, getting involved in a problem that never existed in the first place. So in this case, Paypal is the prosecution. Keep in mind that the "real" law isnt in play here, and that the only law existing here is paypal's policy. Thats why its a metaphor of criminal law.

You also have yet to acknowledge how stupid it is for them to intervene in the first place. Im just going to copy and paste what i just said : If i spent $40 on an item and the seller never sent it, no fucking shit im going to file a complaint. If i was that stupid to let him get away, then I deserve to get scammed. No one should be doing that for me, it makes no sense. If you actually believe that paypal should be disputing for you, then youre dumber than you think.

If it was completely user based, then the disputes in the disputes would mostly consists of real claims. The system where Paypal intervenes only results in wrongful judgement, or at least bugging people for no reason.

 

[Shugaazer]

I've used Ebay and Paypal a ton, and have yet to have a problem. This sounds like one of those really bad situations that happens once in a blue moon. Plus, I save all my tracking numbers, but that's because I run a small business so it was natural.

That's a real shame though.