PC Game Development: Gamepad Issue.

[Lovely Mixture]

I've been thinking about game design recently. While my idea for a game is complex enough, I realized that I had been ignoring a core issue, controls.

Not "what would my controls be?" but my idea is a 2nd Person PC game that is based around using the controls of a gamepad which would definitely conflict with those who prefer keyboard

Dark Souls was ported to PC and even on the Steam page it was recommended that the user purchase a gamepad. Along with the poor graphics optimization (which was thankfully fixed by mods), the game's keyboard interface (which lacked instruction) was frustrating for many at first (though apparently it's gotten fixed enough that even amputee gamers have been able to play it with ease).

Super Meat Boy had both keyboard and gamepad support, and you could probably beat the game with either, but it's easy to tell that the game was very much designed with a gamepad in mind with
all the precise movements involved.

In short, I am asking: is building a PC Game that centers around use of the gamepad a bad thing to do? It's definitely exclusionary for those who don't have a gamepad or prefer using a keyboard.


(for the record,if I ever get my game off the ground I would put in keyboard support.)

 

[Corven]

Of course not, it's a simple fact that some games play better on certain peripherals, flight sims get joy sticks, fighting games get arcade sticks, and a lot of games use the game pad such as precision platformers and racing games.

 

[shrekfan246]

I don't really feel like there's any reasonable excuse to not have a gamepad as a PC gamer. One of the benefits is the huge amount of flexibility in how you choose to control a game. There are games that just play better with a pad, be it because it's an analog and/or precision platformer or just a terrible port, so artificially limiting your options just because you think gamepads are inferior or something comes across as plain silly to me.

That being said, if you're going to build a game with the gamepad specifically in mind, you should hold realistic expectations for how much exposure it's going to get. Well, you should hold realistic expectations for sales or whatever else regardless, but especially if you're going to come right out and state that you should be playing the game with a pad. There's nothing wrong with building a PC game for a pad, just know that you're going to get people angrily stating they're not going to buy your game (and of course, don't be surprised if they angrily state the same for a multitude of other, most likely equally petty, reasons).

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Of course not, it's a simple fact that some games play better on certain peripherals, flight sims get joy sticks, fighting games get arcade sticks, and a lot of games use the game pad such as precision platformers and racing games.

This, except racing games have racing wheels -- you /can/ play them with a gamepad, but it's kind of like playing a flightsim with one. Doable, but sub-optimal.

You probably should include some base level of mouse and keyboard controls, but don't shy away from building the game around the controller if you really think it's necessary. I have tons of games I just don't play if I don't have access to either my 360 controller or my flightstick. I even have a few that I don't play if I don't have access to my wireless keyboard, because the one built into my laptop lacks a numpad. That's the beauty of PC gaming, though. It's totally expandable.

Besides, pretty much everyone whose serious about gaming on the PC has a 360 controller at this point, it's the standard PC controller for that sort of game.

Kind of like how it was a safe assumption that your audience would have at least a basic 2 button flightstick back in the 90's. In fact, a lot of early FPS games assumed you had one of those but didn't assume you had a mouse, which makes the controls look /really/ weird today.

 

[BrotherRool]

Are you going to mandate controller? If you advertise it well I can't see it being ultimately bad, but if both are options you'd have to put up with a lot of people complaining about how your control scheme sucks, because despite some of the comments in this thread there are still a large amount of people without gamepads for their PCs or who wouldn't think of using one and would probably complain about how well the keyboard works. Us on the Escapist forums are still very much on the elitest side of the spectrum.

I think Total Biscuit chooses to complain about poor keyboard, mouse support even when the game can use a gamepad that works well (but he will point out 'it's much better for the gamepad and it was clearly designed for that')

The whole thing probably works best if you're not aiming to have absolutely massive scope. It's not a bad decision but it just reduces the number of people who can/will want to play the game but it can still provide awesome experiences for the people still left in the category

 

[Lovely Mixture]

That being said, if you're going to build a game with the gamepad specifically in mind, you should hold realistic expectations for how much exposure it's going to get. Well, you should hold realistic expectations for sales or whatever else regardless, but especially if you're going to come right out and state that you should be playing the game with a pad. There's nothing wrong with building a PC game for a pad, just know that you're going to get people angrily stating they're not going to buy your game (and of course, don't be surprised if they angrily state the same for a multitude of other, most likely equally petty, reasons).

Are you going to mandate controller? If you advertise it well I can't see it being ultimately bad, but if both are options you'd have to put up with a lot of people complaining about how your control scheme sucks, because despite some of the comments in this thread there are still a large amount of people without gamepads for their PCs or who wouldn't think of using one and would probably complain about how well the keyboard works. Us on the Escapist forums are still very much on the elitest side of the spectrum.

Precisely the reason I'm asking about this. Games can receive criticism for many aspects, but controls is the one thing I believe very actively listen to.

I have some good ideas for keyboard and mouse controls (or without mouse for laptop users who only have a mousepad). It's just a matter of how natural it comes off.

 

[BrotherRool]

Precisely the reason I'm asking about this. Games can receive criticism for many aspects, but controls is the one thing I believe very actively listen to.

I have some good ideas for keyboard and mouse controls (or without mouse for laptop users who only have a mousepad). It's just a matter of how natural it comes off.

I think if you have mouse and keyboard controls that don't completely suck, but you actually mention somewhere that it's best with a gamepad, that will probably remove a lot of the criticism. When I read reviews and they say 'this is a bit weak but because it was obviously designed for use with such and such control scheme' I think that neuters a lot of the weight of the argument. I might be a little put off if I didn't have a gamepad myself but I wouldn't think it's a bad game from the review. So the trick is to make sure if gamepad is best that the people who play the games and talk about them to other people didn't just play with mouse and keyboard and not realise that the alternatives would have been better.

 

[Windcaler]

Of course not. Having a controller is pretty much a requirement for PC gamers because some games just work much better with them. This doesnt excuse developers from making games that dont have keyboard and mouse controls but certainly some games work better with one then the other. For example in FPS games I prefer keyboard and mouse because it feels more accurate to me but for Dark souls I like the controller because it just feels right.

 

[Doom972]

Some PC gamers don't want to use a controller and will be put off by a game that can't be properly controlled by a mouse/keyboard.

Personally, all my PCs had a controller because I know that this is how many games are meant to be played.

If you plan to make money from this game, you may want to consider having good mouse/keyboard support. It doesn't have to be as good as the controller, but it has to be good enough for the average played to beat the game.

 

[TrevHead]

I think you should build your game around the controller the best suits the game and your game will be more fun for the bulk of your audience. But ofc by all means try to accommodate other controllers.

There is a big reason why most serious players of VS Fighting games play on an Arcade Stick and Car Racing Simulation nuts use a steering wheel since they want the best gaming experience on the controller the game was meant to be played for. Those games can be played reasonably well with a pad, but are naff to play with a keyboard for most ppl due to Special Move inputs and the lack of analogue buttons.

Those players would hate it if you watered down the game to shoehorn in m&k, just like PC rpg players didn't like it when multiplat games like Diablo 3 limit the amount of hot key slots to shoehorn in pad players.

Imo there is a large chunk of PC gamers who almost elitist in their M&K or GTFO mentality who aren't doing PC gaming any favours. It's such a shame when I look at all those unique controllers on consoles like the WiiPad and think they would probably do better on PC if the userbase was as open to different controller types like PC was 10+ years ago. Hopefully Valve will change things up abit if they bring out their upgrade to M&K.

That said Aquria is one game that works very well with M&k or pad.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Well as long as you make it absolutely clear that the default input they use is not functional that practice is simply lazy, imagine a console game that tells players their controllers won't work...
I understand the extra input is extra work but you really should consider the platform you release on or you will alienate people, if this is something you prefer doing over adding basic features that is your call but don't be surprised when users also call you out on that bullshit.

 

[Nielas]

Imo there is a large chunk of PC gamers who almost elitist in their M&K or GTFO mentality who aren't doing PC gaming any favours. It's such a shame when I look at all those unique controllers on consoles like the WiiPad and think they would probably do better on PC if the userbase was as open to different controller types like PC was 10+ years ago. Hopefully Valve will change things up abit if they bring out their upgrade to M&K.

That said Aquria is one game that works very well with M&k or pad.

It really depends on what genre of games the players are playing. I am fairly exclusive to RTS, FPS and RPG games so there is no need for me to get a controller. I would probably first get a joystick to play flight simulators before even thinking of a controller. I was strictly a joystick player in my childhood and I am now an exclusive mouse & keyboard player so the muscle memory is all different. Game controllers frankly feel strange and unnatural to me.

What game genres on the PC benefit from using a controller?

 

[sethisjimmy]

I think it's fine, as long as you allow for the use of keyboards like you mentioned. It doesn't have to work well with the keyboard, but the option is always appreciated, and I think less people will complain that way. You could put some kind of notice that the game is best played with a gamepad at the start up screen just so people are aware.

Allowing mod support might also be a plus if you've got a good community. They might be able to find tune keyboard controls better than you could.

I only suggest these options because there are always going to be those people that use keyboard and mouse regardless of the game, genre, or control layout, and those people get annoyed when it seems like developers are restricting them or being obtuse for some reason (even if that isn't the case).

You just need to be transparent about it, let people know why you decided to develop with that control scheme in mind, let them have the option to attempt other controls for themselves, and be open to new ideas.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

As a primarily keyboard+mouse gamer, it's not inherently a bad thing. But I recommend at least decent keyboard+mouse support. With the keyboard you just need to give us the ability to rebind keys and you're all set, the mouse is more difficult, but as long as it's playable it'll do.

 

[Jadak]

What the heck is 2nd person in terms of gameplay? Wouldn't that just be that you're playing a second character watching who's with the main character of the narrative? In other words, still first person, but not the main character?

 

[Scott Rothman]

What the heck is 2nd person in terms of gameplay? Wouldn't that just be that you're playing a second character watching who's with the main character of the narrative? In other words, still first person, but not the main character?

Second person would be watching the protagonist from another persons perspective....

Maybe if like you were a General and you issued commands to other people from his first person perspective?

 

[porous_shield]

As a primarily keyboard+mouse gamer, it's not inherently a bad thing. But I recommend at least decent keyboard+mouse support. With the keyboard you just need to give us the ability to rebind keys and you're all set, the mouse is more difficult, but as long as it's playable it'll do.

I second this. Just give us the ability to rebind the keys and we're all set. I've seen so many games where certain keys aren't bindable or they don't recognize every button on a mouse that has more than just the standard set.

Honestly I rather use a keyboard and mouse to play just about any game rather than a gamepad so if the keyboard and mouse controls are competent, than I won't be playing it.

 

[Angelous Wang]

My advice (which is probably already given, but I can't be asked to read the other posts) build it for the gamepad/controller first as you want to.

Then create a playable (doesn't need to be perfect) default set-up for mouse and keyboard.
Then (like a most games these days) build in a function to manually re-bind controls to whatever mouse and keyboard set-up people want to use.

I would also recommend allowing mapping at least 5 mouse buttons for people with razors and such.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

I think if you have mouse and keyboard controls that don't completely suck, but you actually mention somewhere that it's best with a gamepad, that will probably remove a lot of the criticism. When I read reviews and they say 'this is a bit weak but because it was obviously designed for use with such and such control scheme' I think that neuters a lot of the weight of the argument. I might be a little put off if I didn't have a gamepad myself but I wouldn't think it's a bad game from the review. So the trick is to make sure if gamepad is best that the people who play the games and talk about them to other people didn't just play with mouse and keyboard and not realise that the alternatives would have been better.

I've been thinking a lot after making this thread, I actually have enough ideas to make it work on controller, keyboard and mouse, and just keyboard (for those who only have laptop mousepads).

I'll definitely be saying that it was originally designed with a gamepad in mind.

What game genres on the PC benefit from using a controller?

Not specifically genres but off the top of my head.

Top Down Games (either work well though)
Bullet Hell Games (either work well though)
Games that have static cameras.
Games that have independently controlled cameras that are not directly related to gameplay (Dark Souls is a good example)
Platformers
Ports of console games (for those who are transitioning)
Side-Scrollers (Platformers, 2D Castlevania, 2D Metroid, Contra)

What the heck is 2nd person in terms of gameplay? Wouldn't that just be that you're playing a second character watching who's with the main character of the narrative? In other words, still first person, but not the main character?

I meant to say 2D side-scroller. Thank you for pointing that out.

Then create a playable (doesn't need to be perfect) default set-up for mouse and keyboard.
Then (like a most games these days) build in a function to manually re-bind controls to whatever mouse and keyboard set-up people want to use.

dont give them pre defined key configuration options like ride to hell retribution. that just sucks ass.

As a primarily keyboard+mouse gamer, it's not inherently a bad thing. But I recommend at least decent keyboard+mouse support. With the keyboard you just need to give us the ability to rebind keys and you're all set, the mouse is more difficult, but as long as it's playable it'll do.

I second this. Just give us the ability to rebind the keys and we're all set. I've seen so many games where certain keys aren't bindable or they don't recognize every button on a mouse that has more than just the standard set.

Honestly I rather use a keyboard and mouse to play just about any game rather than a gamepad so if the keyboard and mouse controls are competent, than I won't be playing it.

It amazes me that developers think that's acceptable, especially if the game is a port.
That should go on the list of "things not to do in games" along with: bad checkpoints, unskippable cutscenes, and unnecessary moral choice systems.

and dont exaggerate on the "press the shoulder buttons at the same time to hack into x" thing. that is a bad thing to do with keyboard and mouse. see 007:legends.

What about "hold X and press Y to ___" ?

i recommend you to play those two as to learn how not to design a game.

That's a good idea.

when they are on sale, of course...

I laughed, very good sir.

I think it's fine, as long as you allow for the use of keyboards like you mentioned. It doesn't have to work well with the keyboard, but the option is always appreciated, and I think less people will complain that way. You could put some kind of notice that the game is best played with a gamepad at the start up screen just so people are aware.

Allowing mod support might also be a plus if you've got a good community. They might be able to find tune keyboard controls better than you could.

I only suggest these options because there are always going to be those people that use keyboard and mouse regardless of the game, genre, or control layout, and those people get annoyed when it seems like developers are restricting them or being obtuse for some reason (even if that isn't the case).

You just need to be transparent about it, let people know why you decided to develop with that control scheme in mind, let them have the option to attempt other controls for themselves, and be open to new ideas.

Yes. In my mind, mod support is necessary.

I would also recommend allowing mapping at least 5 mouse buttons for people with razors and such.

Definitely.