Penny Arcade on The Witcher 2

[Jandau]

I don't mind a challenge, but the game would have benefited from a more gradual introduction of gameplay mechanics. The fact that the controls aren't very responsive doesn't help. Also, Geralt seems to do whatever he wants at times and ignores input. For instance, I block an attack and then hit Forward + Attack to do that Jump-to-the-dude-and-stab-him move, but Geralt just does the regular attack, swings through empty air and gets hit by the counterattack.

And then there's the dragon. After figuring out the basics of combat, getting a handle on how to stay alive (roll around until people stop swinging at you for a second, then Aard + attack), I get to the dragon section...

THERE'S A DRAGON!

RUN!

GET TO COVER!

SHIT! THERE ARE MORE ENEMY SOLDIERS! (who don't seem overly concerned about the dragon)

YOU'RE ON FIRE!

RUN!

YOU'RE STILL ON FIRE!

YOU ARE DEAD, MORON!

And I'm sitting there wondering what the hell just happened? Am I supposed to hide? Fight the soldiers? Run like hell?

The poorly optimized graphics engine doesn't help matters. My machine isn't rubbish, I run Crysis 2 on Med-High, but this game I've turned almost everything down to a minimum and I still can't get a decent framerate. I'll have to drop everything, but the game doesn't look nice enough to justify this level of hardware hunger...

P.S. Don't get me wrong, I like the game. It's just a bit frustrating.

 

[mad825]

I died more through QTEs that I did through dying in battle >__>

seriously though, I did not find the QTEs fun at all.

 

[Delusibeta]

Also, is anyone else getting a horrible frame-rate? i am on a pretty decent rig and despite playing on a low-setting i still cannot turn around or even move without everything grinding to a halt.

It's either a driver problem (uninstall any 3D drivers if you're using a Nvidia card, turn off any multi-card settings you're running) or a DRM problem (wait for the next patch). Or just turn off Ubersampling (it's CD Projekt using trollphysics to make your PC go slow).

 

[Alma Mare]

There are pop-up tips. There's a detailed command explanations in the Journal. There's a manual. What else is it needed? Classes on the subject?

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

If you watch Lewis from the Yogscast on his playthrough of the game, he makes a few sloppy moves here and there which account for some of his deaths, but other times you clearly see him parrying and getting hit regardless, because the game fails to explain that parrying is tied to mana. Or he runs into a fight, takes a bit of damage and attempts to use a potion - only to find he cannot, and then much later have it explained that potions have to be used BEFORE battle.

The Witcher 2's problem is not that it's too difficult at the start, but rather that it handles some RPG conventions in a unique way and doesn't bother to explain it in-game. I know that at this point the old school gamers start to whine about how consoles have ruined games by making them hold your hand with everything, but I literally cannot think of a single good reason why it is better to learn of a game mechanic through the manual than by having the game itself introduce you to it. Either way you will still need basic comprehension skills, and the in-game method is far more streamlined and efficient than either reading the entire manual in advance and attempting to recall it, or hitting pause and hunting for a particular key command. There really is no way that modern tutorials have contributed to games being 'dumbed down' by integrating the player's education with the actual gameplay.

Contrary to defences of this oversight that revolve around the theory that The Witcher 2 is unapologetically difficult, most reviews I have seen have expressed the sentiment that the game starts out challenging but doesn't effectively scale in difficulty. In the end, who cares. As soon as I can beg, steal or commandeer someone's PC I will be playing this game.

 

[abija]

It's not about tutorials or manuals or w/e. It's about some people getting used to beat the game whatever they chose to do, so they keep trying same dumb thing over and over again and when it fails they blame the designers.
Also for some reason the message "you died, load last save" is seen as a personal affront.

 

[Gibboniser]

I'm playing on hard atm, fighting these wraiths, I'm not that far into the game, however, enough to finally get the hang of it. I just advise liberal use of Quen, potions, and the space bar.

 

[Jandau]

I'd like to revise my earlier statement and say that Witcher 2 has some atrociously TERRIBLE design. I'm talking about one specific sequence, the second dragon attack. For those of you who haven't played it, it's a quicktime event section where you're supposed to run in a straight line and press the right mouse button when prompted. Sounds easy, right?

WELL IT ISN'T, because the person making it was functionally retarded. The quicktime prompts? Randomly decide not to work. You are dead. Running in a straight line? Well, Geralt is aimed slightly off center and regularly gets stuck on terrain. If this happens, you are dead. If you try to center him, you fall slightly behind and you are dead. Sometimes, you are dead for no apparent reason. No prompt on the screen, you are running and not getting stuck and the dragon just kills you.

This is easily one of the worst sections of a game I've seen in a long time. My skill at the game isn't being tested. My reflexes aren't being tested. It's not even a trial-and-error memorization. It's a 50% chance of dropping dead every 2 seconds even if you do everything right. This part can't be skipped, can't be avoided and I can only wait for my nerves to cool down before I go do it over and over and over and over again until I luck out and make it through.

And then the game will probably crash and I'll have to do it all over again.

 

[Gildan Bladeborn]

This is a recount of that spot and how a console gamer reacts towards it, personally I found it hilarious to behold:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PG1kBrrvPpA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCjzA-C647o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9-j148iT8g

I would like to thank you for directing my attention towards the unbridled hilarity contained within those videos - they make me feel smarter by proxy!

I figured for sure when he decided to use Quen that he surely must have figured out how signs work, but no dice! Bwah ha ha ha ha!!

...whew, oh man is that funny. I think the self-righteous ranting about developers squandering potential as we watch him try the same stupid tactics over and over and over without realizing why they're stupid is the best part really.

 

[Gildan Bladeborn]

It's not about tutorials or manuals or w/e. It's about some people getting used to beat the game whatever they chose to do, so they keep trying same dumb thing over and over again and when it fails they blame the designers.
Also for some reason the message "you died, load last save" is seen as a personal affront.

The video playthrough I'm watching now certainly attests to that mindset! Seriously, it's like he's incapable of pattern recognition or something.

Edit: Annnd now he can't even figure out how to equip armor because he's evidently never even encountered the inventory screen. At all. This is priceless, it's like he can't READ.

 

[Katana314]

In the old days of PC gaming, manuals worked simply because people were willing to invest time in it, but they're not necessary now that our tutorials are smart enough to work with the player through a particularly easy learning part of the game. You know; the standard "crouch under the low barrier to learn the Crouch button" and stuff.

Be honest though - have those "particularly easy" sections of the game wherein the (usually mandatory) tutorial insults your intelligence by making you do painfully obvious things in contrived scenarios, have they ever actually been fun?

I get it, modern game design is geared around ensuring that just about everyone who picks a game up will be able to see it through to the inevitable conclusion, but I hail from an era where finishing games was rare because they were bloody hard, so making me sit through the usual tutorial rigamarole for anything less complicated than a bloody flight simulator is only going to make me resent you for it. I know how to bloody well play video games - the only thing I ever need to learn are the controls and the specifics of any unique mechanics a game might have.

Looking at what the designers of The Witcher 2 gave us, namely trial by fire in a bloody skirmish on a castle's walls, that is just way the hell more fun than a series of contrived scenarios wherein all the individual gameplay elements surface one by one would have been (it was certainly a lot more fun than the corresponding tutorial from the original game was). Yes it was hard (there are difficulty settings for a reason, and it's not like there's some stupid achievement for never turning things down to easy until you get the hang of it), but it was hard in the sense that if you fail you really have no one to blame but yourself. It was genuinely refreshing to play a "tutorial" that would provide me with the information I needed but otherwise expected me to get shit done on my own.

To answer your question, "have they been fun"?

First scenario is that the game is completely new. It's not a rehash of any FPS from previous, it has a completely inventive combat system, and takes some getting used to. In that scenario, you cannot say "I know how to play this", and everyone will be on equal footing when they first start playing. So in this case it's fine to treat the player as stupid initially, and the tutorial can be fun as you start to grasp interesting new gameplay mechanics.

Second scenario is that the mechanics are common. It takes cues from Super Mario, or Halo, or anything like that, and brings them to a new game. It's still fine for this game to have a tutorial new and old players will have fun with. It's a more difficult game design challenge, but here's the facts: A tutorial CAN cater to new players, allow veteran players to get through it quickly, possibly without them even realizing it's a tutorial, and still be fun for both.

Here's what I don't get though. If The Witcher IS introducing new gameplay mechanics for combat and such, then people; ALL people; need to learn them and get used to them from a starting standpoint of "I have no idea how this works". If it's not, then why the heck did they bother making it?

 

[Keava]

I'd like to revise my earlier statement and say that Witcher 2 has some atrociously TERRIBLE design. I'm talking about one specific sequence, the second dragon attack. For those of you who haven't played it, it's a quicktime event section where you're supposed to run in a straight line and press the right mouse button when prompted. Sounds easy, right?

WELL IT ISN'T, because the person making it was functionally retarded. The quicktime prompts? Randomly decide not to work. You are dead. Running in a straight line? Well, Geralt is aimed slightly off center and regularly gets stuck on terrain. If this happens, you are dead. If you try to center him, you fall slightly behind and you are dead. Sometimes, you are dead for no apparent reason. No prompt on the screen, you are running and not getting stuck and the dragon just kills you.

This is easily one of the worst sections of a game I've seen in a long time. My skill at the game isn't being tested. My reflexes aren't being tested. It's not even a trial-and-error memorization. It's a 50% chance of dropping dead every 2 seconds even if you do everything right. This part can't be skipped, can't be avoided and I can only wait for my nerves to cool down before I go do it over and over and over and over again until I luck out and make it through.

And then the game will probably crash and I'll have to do it all over again.

I did that sequence about 5 times, on various difficulties, never ever had a problem with it. Not once did the right click not work. Not once i died on it. The only sequences i have issues with in terms of balancing is the first time with the dragon when you have to run between the covered areas to avoid fire - 1 second delay can mean you will get burned at the last step, the other was the chapter 2 fog sequence with stupidly placed save points and enemies pushing you into the fire if you don't instantly run around them.

As Tycho wrote however, i don't think the game is for everyone, it's aimed towards people that used to play games where 1 mistake would force you re load and re think your strategy. You don't pay attention - you get smacked. You try to brute force - you get smacked. You don't make use of tools available - you get smacked. You can even die very early into the game on being an ass during dialogue sequence.
So far, after two play through, one as full alchemy, one as sword/magic builds i can say that the trees are fairly well balanced, each skill tree makes it possible to complete the game without turning it into impossible challenge, hell there is a guy who finished the game using nothing but a pick axe and one a guy who finished it on insane mode.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Or just turn off Ubersampling (it's CD Projekt using trollphysics to make your PC go slow).

Ubersampling gave Geralt a gimpy leg when I used it. Every 5th or 6th step he'd just kind of misstep.

 

[Waaghpowa]

This is a recount of that spot and how a console gamer reacts towards it, personally I found it hilarious to behold:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PG1kBrrvPpA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCjzA-C647o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9-j148iT8g

He is so painfully bad at the game....

Also Youtube is filled with ignorant tossers, but I think we all know that.

 

[Jandau]

I'd like to revise my earlier statement and say that Witcher 2 has some atrociously TERRIBLE design. I'm talking about one specific sequence, the second dragon attack. For those of you who haven't played it, it's a quicktime event section where you're supposed to run in a straight line and press the right mouse button when prompted. Sounds easy, right?

WELL IT ISN'T, because the person making it was functionally retarded. The quicktime prompts? Randomly decide not to work. You are dead. Running in a straight line? Well, Geralt is aimed slightly off center and regularly gets stuck on terrain. If this happens, you are dead. If you try to center him, you fall slightly behind and you are dead. Sometimes, you are dead for no apparent reason. No prompt on the screen, you are running and not getting stuck and the dragon just kills you.

This is easily one of the worst sections of a game I've seen in a long time. My skill at the game isn't being tested. My reflexes aren't being tested. It's not even a trial-and-error memorization. It's a 50% chance of dropping dead every 2 seconds even if you do everything right. This part can't be skipped, can't be avoided and I can only wait for my nerves to cool down before I go do it over and over and over and over again until I luck out and make it through.

And then the game will probably crash and I'll have to do it all over again.

I did that sequence about 5 times, on various difficulties, never ever had a problem with it. Not once did the right click not work. Not once i died on it. The only sequences i have issues with in terms of balancing is the first time with the dragon when you have to run between the covered areas to avoid fire - 1 second delay can mean you will get burned at the last step, the other was the chapter 2 fog sequence with stupidly placed save points and enemies pushing you into the fire if you don't instantly run around them.

As Tycho wrote however, i don't think the game is for everyone, it's aimed towards people that used to play games where 1 mistake would force you re load and re think your strategy. You don't pay attention - you get smacked. You try to brute force - you get smacked. You don't make use of tools available - you get smacked. You can even die very early into the game on being an ass during dialogue sequence.
So far, after two play through, one as full alchemy, one as sword/magic builds i can say that the trees are fairly well balanced, each skill tree makes it possible to complete the game without turning it into impossible challenge, hell there is a guy who finished the game using nothing but a pick axe and one a guy who finished it on insane mode.

But that's the thing, I AM one of the people the game is aimed at. I like a challenge. I got my arse kicked the first few times I got into combat, but I adapted, learned to parry properly, when to dodge and when to attack, how to position myself, when to use Aard to open up an enemy, etc. I like trying new things until something sticks.

But that's precisely the reason why I hate the dragon sequence I mentioned - it doesn't allow for a new approach or experimentation. Either you get through it or you don't. I've had the prompt for the second dodge (while you're carrying Foltest) fail on me at least 3 times. I've had Geralt get stuck on scenery 10+ times. And I had a few times where I was running normally, but the dragon magically cought up to me for no reason and killed me. I got through it, but I have no idea how. I didn't do anything differently than before, I just lucked out.

Oh, and the first dragon encounter, you need to run to cover to the right (your allies go left), kill the guards, wait for the dialogue to play out and for your allies to move to the second cover. Then activate Quen to absorb the fire damage and run across. If you try running earlier, you get killed off by default. If you wait, you can get across but suffer damage, that's where Quen comes in.

 

[Asehujiko]

Or are we just waiting for the XBox release somewhat around November?

Probably that. I smelled favoritism too. They've been ignoring the game to death completely except for the possibility that it might go to consoles too eventually.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Given how On the Rain Slicked Precipice of Darkness(sp?) treats you, I think Gabe/Tycho have no high ground over the Witcher.

 

[bluepotatosack]

Oh, and the first dragon encounter, you need to run to cover to the right (your allies go left), kill the guards, wait for the dialogue to play out and for your allies to move to the second cover. Then activate Quen to absorb the fire damage and run across. If you try running earlier, you get killed off by default. If you wait, you can get across but suffer damage, that's where Quen comes in.

I had no problem taking the route to the left. I just ran ahead of my allies, killed the enemies, ran ahead to the next shelter, killed the guys in there, and that was that.

 

[RA92]

Or are we just waiting for the XBox release somewhat around November?

Probably that. I smelled favoritism too. They've been ignoring the game to death completely except for the possibility that it might go to consoles too eventually.

Well, they have been posting news about TW2 regularly - CDProject being forced to raise TW's price in the outback, them stopping IP-tracking and giving the retail outlets the middle finger, the FAT32 incompatibility business, etc. But the review is still not there, especially considering other sites (got mine from RPS and Eurogamer) already had their's for about a week now. This ain't exactly a minor release, considering it probably outsold LA Noire.

But yeah, kinda annoying how every game review has to be on the XBox360. I mean, c'mon Steve Butts! You're a PC gamer! How did ya review Brink?

Probably stuck a K&M to the XBox.

 

[Hashime]

I have to agree about the first fight, it is brutal. I died about 10 times. It took a bit, but the trial by fire combat tutorial did teach me how to fight. That is roll the hell away until you are able to parry from all directions.