People should stop protecting guns

[Mr F.]

Well...

Fuck it.

I am going to make my point, once, in this thread and this thread only.

I am a Brit. I have never held a gun. Whilst I would love to go target shooting at some point there are not very many shooting ranges around. If I could legally own a gun... I wouldn't. Just escalates everything way way too far. If someone came into my home, armed, and wanted to steal my shit? Take it. Its insured. If someone came into my home to kill me? Well, I just do not think that it is likely, at all, nor are any of the other home invasion scenarios. The world, or Britain at least, is somewhat empty of psychotic home invading killer rapists. And if I ever came across a psychotic home invading killer rapist I am pretty certain I would be fucked.

Just getting all of that out of the way.

Can people shut the fuck up about America and guns?

Its an American issue, not a global issue. It is not as black and white as many people think. The USA is fucking huge. It has motherfucking colossal borders, both land and sea. The bad guys WILL get guns. Disarming the American populace would both be incredibly incredibly difficult and utterly pointless. Oh, and damaging. Hell, has anyone even considered the economic damage that would be caused by removing the domestic gun market?

Do I think that it is mad that Americans are armed? Yes. I look at myself, realise I would never want a gun, realise I hate weaponry and realise that my reasoning is rational.

Do I think that guns should be outlawed in the states? Nope. There are way too many in circulation, way too many jobs in making them, all of those arguments actually hold true. With the Mexican border as porous as it is it would be impossible to remove the guns from America. You outlaw guns only outlaws have guns.

Leave the guns alone. The situation is pretty much unique. Pointing at crime figures for disarmed nations (Or other armed nations) is pointless.

 

[Rednog]

Stopped reading after "EUHMERICAH"
Yea, sorry but people really need to grow up, this 'Murica and various other concoctions need to stop. People who use nonsense like this and try to waggle their finger at the US need to realize that they're being childish cretins. Best way to start a discussion? Insult the person, fucking genius.

 

[BrassButtons]

3 The general consensus everywhere but the United states of EUHMERICAH is that guns are bad and one should not be able to own, this does not however mean that Americans shouldn't be able to choose whether or not they're allowed to own guns.

I had to comment on this particular "fact".

General concensus everywhere but "Euhmericah"?

I believe much of the Middle East, North (and to a degree South) Africa, majority of South America, Mexico, and a slew of other regions and nations would like to disagree.

Just about every country, really. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics]

 

[Judas_Iscariot]

If you honestly believe banning weapons makes violent crime rates go down, you are deluding yourself. Guns do not turn people into killers, killers turn guns into weapons.

The legal right to possess a firearm is preserved to give American Citizens the ability to defend themselves against their government. Look what happened to Austria after it was annexed by Hitler's Third Reich. The first liberty taken away from the Austrians was gun ownership. After the guns were taken, then the Nazis began the genocide in Austria.

In addition, I just can't get over how poor your reasoning is in your initial argument. Guns aren't used for anything but malicious harm? Recreational target practice, hunting, self defense, and militia drilling are all uses.

 

[OneOfTheMichael's]

Well i guess I can agree with you to some point there. My opinion: Hypothetically speaking, what if all the guns in the world just disappeared. what do you guys think will happen?

 

[Ryotknife]

Well i guess I can agree with you to some point there. My opinion: Hypothetically speaking, what if all the guns in the world just disappeared. what do you guys think will happen?

They will be rebuilt.

If all guns (legal and illegal) disappeared from the US overnight as well as any company that makes them in the US, all that will happen is that illegal guns will flood across the borders from pretty much every direction. Considering our track record for stopping illegal drugs.......

 

[The_Healer]

Woooooo lets all get wound up into hysterics by our love of guns!

I mean, seriously, you can't be safe unless you are surrounded by at least 6 firearms.
And a collection of landmines.

And don't talk to me about tasers either.
Those things are dangerous man.

 

[LarenzoAOG]

I'm getting sick of ludicrous arguments I keep hearing about guns
Wether you're pro-guns or anti-guns I wish to put a few facts straight that everyone with a sane mind can understand.


1 Guns aren't "safe" guns are tools intended to harm, there is no other purpose for a gun than to wound or kill.

2 People may kill people but people with guns kill them a whole lot faster.

3 The general consensus everywhere but the United states of EUHMERICAH is that guns are bad and one should not be able to own, this does not however mean that Americans shouldn't be able to choose whether or not they're allowed to own guns.

4 The fact that when you ban guns there will still be guns on the street is not an argument to hide yourself behind, however making it more difficult for the average Joe to own a gun and limiting the influx of guns into the open world is a valid argument against it. (quote me on this and I will elaborate on the subject).

5 A shotgun in a secured gunsafe in your home is a defense weapon, semi-automatic/automatic weapons and pistols aren't.

6 A pistol securely fastened on your body is a defense weapon if you're out on the street, a shotgun or semi/automatic weaponry is not.

7 Hunting rifles in woodland areas are a yes, hunting rifles in the suburbs or the city are a No-No.


Any arguments to add, anything you wish to discuss ?
Be polite,calm and respectful about it.


[sub]the poster of this thread neither condemns nor accepts guns[/sub]

1: EDIT: Checked my stats, Baseball bats are not in fact the most dangerous weapon in the U.S., so I exclude that point, however my point stands that many things are dangerous and some are more dangerous than guns.

2: So what you're saying is even if not everyone has guns they'll still die? Most people that are murdered by guns are either killed by crimes of passion or a premeditated crime, either way those people will probably end up dead.

3: By your use of the word "EUHMERICAH" smacks of some kind of cultural bias, further evidence to this bias is that later down in the thread you refer to "civilized countries" not allowing gun ownership, the implication that America isn't civilized because people can own guns, and many country allow their citizens to own guns.

4: Gun laws don't affect criminals, so that's a perfectly valid argument, if you remove a means of self defense you remove the right to defend yourself, if people can't defend themselves the criminals are more free to commit crimes.

5: If I defend myself with a shotgun it's self defense, if I defend myself with a semiautomatic rifle it's still self defense, if I defend myself with an orange traffic cone it's self defense.

6: Not many people carry rifles or shotguns out in public, since it's sort of illegal, if you do that you are a criminal, so we agree on that point.

7: If I live in the city and like to hunt in nearby woods what's the problem?

Do guns kill people? Yes. Are they dangerous? Yes. Should Joe Blow own an AK-47 with armor piercing rounds, a high-capacity drum magazine, and a scope? Probably not.

Do they kill more people than water? Cars? Cigarettes? Drugs? Alcohol? Medical errors? Accidental poisonings? Household accident? Or people killing each other the old fashion way? No on all accounts. Do guns provide the ability to defend yourself, your family, and your property? Yes. Do they provide people the ability to hunt and shoot for sport? Yes. Can people be trained to respect guns and handle them safety? Yes.

Guns account for roughly 30,000 deaths a year in the U.S., less than 5,000 of which are intentional gun homicides, in a single week cigarettes kill roughly 14,000 people in the U.S..

Also this belongs in Religion & Polotics

 

[OneOfTheMichael's]

Well i guess I can agree with you to some point there. My opinion: Hypothetically speaking, what if all the guns in the world just disappeared. what do you guys think will happen?

They will be rebuilt.

If all guns (legal and illegal) disappeared from the US overnight as well as any company that makes them in the US, all that will happen is that illegal guns will flood across the borders from pretty much every direction. Considering our track record for stopping illegal drugs.......

I meant all guns in the world. forever. like the even concept of them disappeared as well. Eh i guess this hypothetical question was put down badly.
Honestly I would have thought we'd just find another way to kill/defend ourselves.

 

[Xman490]

People should stop protecting guns

People should stop making these threads.

This argument is completely pointless, since pro-guns people will continue to use slippery-slope fallacies, and anti-guns people will continue to use false equivalence fallacies.

"False equivalence fallacies?" What objects are being unjustly compared? Assault weapons and other guns or melee weapons? No, that would be a pro-gun argument that could be used for the "You'll ban everything!" slippery slope (though it's not too slippery of a slope).

Assault weapons kill dozens in a minute as in the highly-reported-on shootings. Other weapons kill much fewer in a minute, right?

 

[burningdragoon]

"guns are only meant to kill"

First point right out of the gate is false. Good start. Guns have a certain level of capability to kill that other tools may lack, but to say their only purpose is to kill is just wrong. Or at the very least you don't understand what "only" means.

 

[Ryotknife]

Well i guess I can agree with you to some point there. My opinion: Hypothetically speaking, what if all the guns in the world just disappeared. what do you guys think will happen?

They will be rebuilt.

If all guns (legal and illegal) disappeared from the US overnight as well as any company that makes them in the US, all that will happen is that illegal guns will flood across the borders from pretty much every direction. Considering our track record for stopping illegal drugs.......

I meant all guns in the world. forever. like the even concept of them disappeared as well. Eh i guess this hypothetical question was put down badly.
Honestly I would have thought we'd just find another way to kill/defend ourselves.

i would imagine that eventually they would be rediscovered. Might take decades. If Einstien was never born, do you think that nuclear bombs (or the technology derived from this knowledge) would never exist?

Course, I cant really prove any of this, just a matter of opinion.

 

[corvuscorrax]

This forum has an unusually high population of timid, idealist, peaceniks who don't seem to understand that we don't live in some perfect world with no violence or problems.

WE F**KING DON'T

The world is full of people who've seen stuff that would make most of us westernized pasty faced mommas boys wet our pants and start crying.

With gun control all that is done is you ensure the law abiding citizens are unarmed, while the criminals still have them.

 

[BrassButtons]

With gun control all that is done is you ensure the law abiding citizens are unarmed, while the criminals still have them.

You know, this kind of misinformation isn't much better than what the OP is presenting. "Gun control" is not synonymous with "gun ban". If you want to keep guns away from violent criminals you support gun control. The issue isn't gun control itself, but the specific type of gun control.

 

[Mycroft Holmes]

with a sane mind can understand.

...Any arguments to add, anything you wish to discuss ?
Be polite,calm and respectful about it.

Immediately start by saying anyone who disagrees with your 'points' is a lunatic, then ask for people to be respectful and polite... what? Give the respect you expect in return.

1 Guns aren't "safe" guns are tools intended to harm, there is no other purpose for a gun than to wound or kill.

Sports shooting. You are wrong.

2 People may kill people but people with guns kill them a whole lot faster.

People may kill people but people with letter openers kill them a whole lot faster. You can say this for almost anything.

3 The general consensus everywhere but the United states of EUHMERICAH is that guns are bad and one should not be able to own

General consensus is and always will be irrelevant. Or did I miss the meeting where we now get to vote on reality. People in the middle ages voted that prayer could cure sickness. Did that mean it was true?

Also you do realize that 'everywhere else' includes countries that literally have AK-47s on their flags as well as countries that are in the middle of armed rebellions against dictators(which they believe is only possible with guns.) I'm going to go ahead and call a big fat bullshit on that statement. Europe/Canada/Australia/Japan aren't 'everywhere else.' Also even then, Switzerland waaaay disagrees. Heavy government control of guns does not mean people thing guns are bad, it just means the government want's to ensure that they are the only ones with guns.

5 A shotgun in a secured gunsafe in your home is a defense weapon, semi-automatic/automatic weapons and pistols aren't.

6 A pistol securely fastened on your body is a defense weapon if you're out on the street, a shotgun or semi/automatic weaponry is not.

This makes absolutely no sense on multiple levels. Are you the king of the universe who gets to decide what type of lethal force is acceptable. Oh it's totally self defense if you kill someone with 12 gauge buckshot, but if it's 9mm bullets then you're a murderer?

If someone breaks into my house and I happen to have an assault rifle, they start shooting at me and I gun them down, was that weapon used in self defense or am I the evil aggressor? And if it was used in defense, does that not make it a defense weapon?

7 Hunting rifles in woodland areas are a yes, hunting rifles in the suburbs or the city are a No-No.

So no one in the suburbs is allowed to ever go hunting on the weekends? Or they have to leave their rifle out in the woods when they leave, maybe buried in a hole where they can dig it out later? Or do they have to rent a gun every time they go? Or are they just supposed to be one dimensional caricatures of people, who aren't allowed to have interests outside of the group norm for their societal/cultural background?

 

[viranimus]

Thank you kind OP. All this time, living in the city proper with my Mossberg 835 not locked in anything other than a closet is wrong and all this time I have been wrong for owning something that I can always have handy to put out on pawn/loan if something unexpected occurs. I had no idea that I had no rational justifiable reason to do this, but I will be sure to report to the local police precinct to relinquish control of my shotgun that I had no right to posess, dispite legally purchasing it and submitting to background checks to reclaim it each time I put it out on pawn/loan.

Any ideas for something else I can invest in to replace this as my default "any pawn shop will take this on loan" item considering I live in a hunting culture where children are exposed to guns essentially every single day they have existed on this rock? Too many guitars, None will touch car stereo equipment, power Tools are out simply for the assumption they are stolen, The offerings on electronics are abysmal considering how pervasive things like HDTVs, digital cameras, GPS and Xbox 360s are. Oh yeah thats right, That was the reason I bought the thing in the first place. (that and I was going to be staying in my home state for about half a year and both gun and truck ownership are required by law.

Edit: Good thing I didnt mention that despite living within the city limits, I have actually used it within those city limits, Even shooting in the direction of a church less than 25 feet away no less. /gasp, heads would roll if if I mentio..DAMNIT!

 

[OneOfTheMichael's]

Well i guess I can agree with you to some point there. My opinion: Hypothetically speaking, what if all the guns in the world just disappeared. what do you guys think will happen?

They will be rebuilt.

If all guns (legal and illegal) disappeared from the US overnight as well as any company that makes them in the US, all that will happen is that illegal guns will flood across the borders from pretty much every direction. Considering our track record for stopping illegal drugs.......

I meant all guns in the world. forever. like the even concept of them disappeared as well. Eh i guess this hypothetical question was put down badly.
Honestly I would have thought we'd just find another way to kill/defend ourselves.

i would imagine that eventually they would be rediscovered. Might take decades. If Einstien was never born, do you think that nuclear bombs (or the technology derived from this knowledge) would never exist?

Course, I cant really prove any of this, just a matter of opinion.

Well guns would most likely be re invented but if einstein never existed we wouldnt ever have anything of his work considering he was a one of a kind who made a lot of discoveries for humanity.

 

[jovack22]

Military/law-enforcement-grade weapons/accessories do not need to be accessible by the public.
There are no arguments that can be made.

There are 2 states that do not let people pump their own gas (because it is flammable), yet still uphold the second amendment.

Read up the definition of "amendment".. there is no reason why it can't be amended again.