Philosophy in gaming

[Hey Joe]

It seems to me, that philisophy is an underused areaof discourse in games.Sure, we have a few snippets here and there *cough* Bioshock *cough*, but for a medium that has players interacting in an intangible play area, it seems the concept hasn't been fully developed yet.

I want to see games with sneaky Cartesian undertones (Hello The Sims), the ideas of Nietsczhe being followed OUTSIDE the usual post-apocalyptic/orwellian shanty town setting.

So, your challenge members of the Escapist Forums, is to find philisophical discourse in gaming that isn't completely ham-fisted. If there is a dearth of such examples, explore why this is. My theory, that gaming is a relatively young medium when compared to other mediums (Film, Music etc). Is our medium determined to be mere entertainment, or can games ever hope to contribute to philisophical discourse and debate?

Discuss

 

[CodeChrono]

I found Shin Megami Tensai Persona 3 and Persona 3 FES to be a hotbed of several philosophical tones (about 1 mighty gigantic one and about 19 small ones to be specific). I usually like games like that, but at other times I just want to enjoy a game and not really think. It's a double sided blade. Philosophy can be a very powerful aspect of a game, but it can also denograte the very thing games are supposed to do (entertain us).

I love a good Bioshock or Shin Megami Tensai Persona 3 now and again, but I also love me some SSBB and Peggle. ^_^

 

[L.B. Jeffries]

People have done this, though it's more a teaching exercise than backstory for a plot. If you're going to talk about philosophy, generally the gamer may need to put down the shotgun for five minutes. Look, here's an example:

http://www.bunnygame.org/

It's a pretty apt way to teach someone the Tragedy of the Commons. For those not inclined to click on the link, it's an Aristotlean principle that explains why everything in the world can't be free.

The analogy in the game is rabbits. You and 3 other rabbit hunter go out into the woods. Whoever collects the most rabbits wins. The game plays over 2 rounds of collecting rabbits, and in the second round, for every rabbit left on the screen there will be 2 added. The problem, which the game quickly demonstrates, is that rather than do the reasonable thing by developing an equilibrium with the rabbit population so that everyone makes cash, you and the other rabbit hunters just kill all the rabbits in the first round. Then it goes into a different version where you have farms you're not allowed to steal, etc. to show that more rabbits get produced and thus society overall gets more rabbits AND you make more money.

Boom, you now understand a basic philosophical foundation of society and you learned it in a 5 minute flash game.

 

[drummond13]

I think, similar to film, a lot of games focus more on looking flashy. With rare exceptions like Bioware, writing and voice acting often get flushed to the side. You get games like Farcry which look great and are fun but have hammy (and not in a good way) one liners and a cliche plot with no depth whatsoever.

I feel that philosophy is another level beyond gameplay story. Most games have a linear story to tell to get you to do what you need to do in the game, be it kill all these people and/or get from point A to point B. If they add depth to this basic framework, it's often in the form of character development. It's rare to find a game that allows the plot to be complex enough to make any sort of philosophical point or discussion relevant in the game.

What I find more frustrating is when a game seems to try to make some minor philosophical ideal and then totally fails. Jade Empire intrigued me at first saying that your character could persue the path of Open Palm and Closed Fist and that the two were very different from simply being Good or Evil. However that didn't stop the fact that for the rest of the game doing Good things led to Open Palm points and and Evil actions went the other way. The complexity of the path of the Closed Fist also wasn't helped much by having your shadow become a Lovecraftian monster looking thing when you stood still for too long....

 

[Lvl 64 Klutz]

Having recently completed a philosophy minor, let me be the first to say that in the right light, every game out there has philosophical ideas at play... yeah, even Pac Man.

 

[drummond13]

Having recently completed a philosophy minor, let me be the first to say that in the right light, every game out there has philosophical ideas at play... yeah, even Pac Man.

True. But if I have to stretch my brain to figure out the philosophy of a game, and in some cases basically invent my own philosophy as it relates to the game, then I can't really credit the game for "discussing philosophy".

 

[stompy]

I remember seeing an interview with the dev leader of Bioshock, who said that most gamers don't want philosophy, and just wanna shoot stuff. I can see where he comes from, what with the average FPS player being foamy at the mouth, and approaches rigour-mortis when not killing things. I say give gaming time, and eventually, games with philosophy will come along. Just be patient.

 

[Joeshie]

Having recently completed a philosophy minor, let me be the first to say that in the right light, every game out there has philosophical ideas at play... yeah, even Pac Man.

I find that if you stretch philosophy out that far out it starts to completely lose it's meaning and relevance.

You start to look for meaning in every nook and cranny and you can easily lose sight of the big picture.

 

[Lvl 64 Klutz]

Having recently completed a philosophy minor, let me be the first to say that in the right light, every game out there has philosophical ideas at play... yeah, even Pac Man.

I find that if you stretch philosophy out that far out it starts to completely lose it's meaning and relevance.

True, but there are plenty of games that contain rather obvious philosophical ideas. I mean, Think of all the theology angles and metaphysics addressed in Final Fantasy X, or SotC's interesting take on narcissism and ethics.

Panzer Dragoon: Orta and identity...
Xenosaga and EXTREME Theology...
Shadow Hearts series and Ontology...

just a few that come right to mind.

 

[Fire Daemon]

The philosophy in Bioshock is something that could be implememnted in any game. Bioshock could be about killer robots and the general philosophy could still be there. So I think that Philosophy could be implemented in any sort of game, even a racing game if the DEVS worked hard.

I don't think this would be a good thing though. It will remove the relaxed nature of video games, make games up themselves if you will. I don't want to play a game to be taught a lesson in philosophy, everynow and again it might be good, but chances are if all games become Philsosphy-fests then games will ruined.

 

[tino1498]

what bioshock did well was putting philosophy in a game and making it worth something. he fact that you are the one being controlled by Fontaine and that you are the one who is stuck in rapture make it meaningful. rather than having a cutscene every now and then telling you what you're doing and giving you these little snippets of ohilosophy. in Bioshock, everything oyu did was philosophical

 

[drummond13]

if all games become Philsosphy-fests then games will ruined.

I really don't think this is something to worry about.....

 

[blaze96]

_Civilization_ I guess you could say has the Whig philosophy of history behind it, as society being an evolution from despotism to enlightenment.

That and how all of history has been a struggle between lead of one and lead of many.

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

_Civilization_ I guess you could say has the Whig philosophy of history behind it, as society being an evolution from despotism to enlightenment.

That and how all of history has been a struggle between lead of one and lead of many.

That statement is such a broad assessment of history it fills me with hate.

 

[Anton P. Nym]

The dialog in the Marathon series has a lot of philosophy behind it, from Leela's stoicism to Durandal's existentialism to Tycho's weird blend of nihilism and... well, dunno what to call it really, his strange reasoning behind his actions to avenge those lost in the first game. (Philosophy isn't really my forté)

Bioshock explores objectivism, of course, though I think the plot really revolves around the rift between extreme dogmatism (Ryan) and extreme pragmatism (Fontaine).

I know there are others, but it's Monday and the coffee isn't working its usual magic yet.

-- Steve

 

[AntiAntagonist]

To date my favorite philosophical discussion in a game was with my Seaman. After a few discussions it asks if you believe that it exists. If not then it wonders why since you are sitting there interacting with it.

-Short story:
If you can believe in the existence of John F Kennedy (a person you've never met, but everyone accepts his existence), but not Seaman then that simply does not make sense.

IIRC Seaman tries to turn the table around on you using the 'brain in a box' argument.


Don't get me started on DesCartes' ridiculous logic jump.


As with many types of content, philosophy is something admissable only in certain genres. Even if Rez or BioShock can get away with philosophical undertones, having lengthy discourse is impossible in say Geometry Wars or WarioWare (if you don't include cutscenes).

 

[sammyfreak]

The most interesting and most overlooked part of philosophy in Bioshock would be that regarding genetical enhancement and body altering drugs.

Most games contain rudementary philosophy, but very few seem to present their own ideas, most just repeat anecdotes of literature at best.

 

[Weaver]

I want to make a game where you are Socrates and you have to out-argue the other person.

 

[Nugoo]

Seconding Xenosaga.

 

[Papaya Melancholy]

I think the philosophical theories expounded here are bullocks. Bullocks! I have a general dissatisfaction with Western thought. I don't feel I can fully articulate it - but I remember hearing one quote "Philosphy is taking the blatantly obvious and coming up with the absolutely ridiculous." I don't know where I heard it and that's really just the gist of it. But hasn't Philosophy lost something, among all the isms and absolutes? Isn't Philosophy just the way we approach our lives, the questioning without the expectaion of an answer? Am I asking too much of Western Philosophy? Am I approaching this wrong? I have become very disheartened with this tone in Philosophy. I apologize if I am saying things that make people feel diminished or threatened.