Philosophy of Sexualization, The Anatomy of a Horse

kongajinken

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I?ll start out by saying there isn?t two sides to this issue, there exists only one side that a majority agree upon. There exist fringe minorities to the extreme right and left, but those are the exception, not the rule. Now you may be wondering, I?ve seen previous topics about this, you are delusional if you think there exists a majority, its two sides fighting. The eventual goal of this paper is to not only show that that assumption is wrong, but hopefully point out the discrepancies that people are having. In short, while the words may give an appearance of different viewpoints at first glance. What both sides are discussing is in fact the same issue.

I?ll start out by defining the goal of the majority. For there to be women such that they are treated as people. That?s it. Everyone not only agrees with this point, all other additional points directly refer back to this main point. In such any smaller goal you may have, is in fact this overbearing main idea. This is important because these smaller points is where the problems start to come out of. Which causes confusion because even though the main idea is the same, the smaller issues create a layer of complexity that gives the appearance of this being an issue dominated by two opposing sides. Or that this this issue isn?t fully agreed upon.

The problem, the core debate is too strongly focused on sexualization. While some think sexualization is intrinsically opposed to the goal of the main goal and itself evil, the majority think sexualization is not inherently bad. To break down why the majority think this way lets define a false dichotomy. You can have either a sexy women, or a women treated as a person. Obviously this is wrong, you can easily have a sexy women treated as a person, and you can have an ugly women not treated as a person. So a sex object requires two things, first that women are sexualized, and second, that they aren?t treated as a person. Sex object and sexy women are not the same thing! Just because someone is sexy doesn?t mean they are being regulated as a sex object.

The above gets trickier when you add in more layers of complexity. While it appears that some in the majority may at first glance appear to not recognize this fact, they in fact do. It is the over saturation of sexualization that makes some feel as if women are being regulated to sex object category, and not treated as a people. They want a larger variety of body types of women to better represent the diversity of body type?s women as people have. Restated this idea stems not from sexualization being inherently wrong, but the abundance of sexualization making some agitated that there is a lack of average looking women. In short, it?s the overabundance of sexualization that is the cause for frustration, not sexualization in general.

After a few rounds of debates, each side is confused about the other side?s point. Side one is claiming that while sexualization isn?t wrong, they would like more types besides sexy. Side two is arguing that being sexy isn?t wrong and that the character of the women should be defined by their merits of their identity as a person instead. But, and this is a heavy but, side one?s focus on oversaturation of sexy women as being a problem brings side two to incorrectly assume side one disagrees with them. Where side one thinks that since side two is arguing with them, they must disagree with their original idea argues back, this leads side two to further conclude side one thinks being sexy is bad, and they argue their point back instead of side one?s original point. Much like a game of phone that many of us played when we were younger, the original idea is misshapen and even though both are in agreement, it gives the appearance that the majority are in disagreement.

Now side one is angry that side two doesn?t see side one?s point of wanting more variety in body types. A minority falsely come to the conclusion that sexualization implies sex object directly without exception. Side two is confused that side one says they wanted to treat women as people, but at the same time don?t get why they can?t see sexy women as people. Which is than perpetuated by the new focus on sexualization, instead of the original focus being on treating women as people. Now the debate has devolved back to the original question that the majority has agreed upon. But now has additional content and extra ideas mixed in, where the complexity leads to both sides no longer being able to understand each other. At this point it is a flame war as the only thing correctly being conveyed is emotions. This right here is where the false assumption that there is a debate going on exists. Because emotions are riding high, everyone assumes the opposing faction is disagreeing with the, when in fact they are not.

I hope this paper was helpful. If you have any disagreements with my conclusions, or would like to add something you feel needs restated or that I didn?t cover well, feel free to add anything.

EDITS: Sorry forum didn't format post correctly from paper.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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Very noble attempt at distinguishing between sex, sexy, sexuality and sexualization, but no self-righteous/chauvinistic person is going to read all that and make some changes in his life. You're just preaching to the choir. Every thread like this always ends in petty bickering over semantics.
 

synobal

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I'm disappointed the word horse doesn't turn up in the original post once. I feel lied to.
 

Zhukov

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That is one of the most coherent posts I have seen in a gender thread for quite some time.

However, I'm a little disappointed that there wasn't an analogy involving a horse in there.

As for the actual topic, y'know, I still have no idea what exactly constitutes "objectification." Yeah, it means to treat someone like an object, but I don't get what that actually entails.
 

nomotog_v1legacy

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the hidden eagle said:
Zhukov said:
That is one of the most coherent posts I have seen in a gender thread for quite some time.

However, I'm a little disappointed that there wasn't an analogy involving a horse in there.

As for the actual topic, y'know, I still have no idea what exactly constitutes "objectification." Yeah, it means to treat someone like an object, but I don't get what that actually entails.
Well usually objectification means someone is trotted out wearing nothing but a thong or being almost naked.
Yes and no. It can be hard to describe objectification and you are going to have reasonable people disagreeing as to what counts and what doesn't. One thing I don't recommend is trying to define it based around how much clothing someone is wearing. People in headscarves can be just as objectified as someone who is naked. The kind of nebulous yard stick I use is to ask why they are wearing,posing,doing what they are doing. If a character has a in character reason for something, then it likely means they have agency and aren't being objectified.
 

Zhukov

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A_suspicious_cabbage said:
And if people want these potentially untapped veins of story telling and character dimensions to be explored, surely they should lead by example?

The onus is on those who are passionate about the change to get stuck in and help make something, instead of just criticising others creations.
Why does this argument only ever see the light of day in relation to gender stuff?

When someone complains about the excess of drab modern military shooters, why are they not met with, "Well, if you're so passionate about it you should become a game developer and make some non-drab-modern-military-shooter games"?

When someone complains about day-one DLC, why are they not met with, "Well, if you're so passionate about it you should become a game developer and make games without day-one DLC"?

It can be applied to every single criticism of absolutely anything.
 

Vegosiux

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Zhukov said:
Why does this argument only ever see the light of day in relation to gender stuff?
On the internet, maybe. In real life, I see it every day, all over the place. From cooking, sports and Doom-it-yourself disasters, to work related stuff and politics.

But, as I said in a different thread, "invested enough to have a problem with it, and not invested enough to do more than sit in my comfy chair and write angry words on the internet" is a very unfortunate area of being invested in any particular issue. But that's a lot due to my aversion to internet (sl)ac(k)tivism. It's different in reality, people seem to know that in offline life, what you do is what matters, not how often you get on a soapbox...on the internet, everyone wants to be Jesus, though. The visionary, the inspiration, the "face" of whichever movement is hot currently.

@OP; a very good post. I don't really have much to add.
 

carnex

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Zhukov said:
A_suspicious_cabbage said:
And if people want these potentially untapped veins of story telling and character dimensions to be explored, surely they should lead by example?

The onus is on those who are passionate about the change to get stuck in and help make something, instead of just criticising others creations.
Why does this argument only ever see the light of day in relation to gender stuff?

When someone complains about the excess of drab modern military shooters, why are they not met with, "Well, if you're so passionate about it you should become a game developer and make some non-drab-modern-military-shooter games"?

When someone complains about day-one DLC, why are they not met with, "Well, if you're so passionate about it you should become a game developer and make games without day-one DLC"?

It can be applied to every single criticism of absolutely anything.
You see, there is a valid argument there. I argued time and time again that you should put either money or effort where your mouth is or shut up. Nobody is entitled to anything. You do not get what you want if you are willing to sacrifice something to make it true. And guess what, if people are willing to pay and create sexy amazon woman in chainmail bikini that spends more time flaunting their T'n'A to the screen than swinging the sword and not willing to pay or create same amazon in more sensible armor that spends most of her time chopping enemies guess what you will get.

On the topic, great post. Talking one past another really is a common problem.
 

Zhukov

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carnex said:
Zhukov said:
Why does this argument only ever see the light of day in relation to gender stuff?

When someone complains about the excess of drab modern military shooters, why are they not met with, "Well, if you're so passionate about it you should become a game developer and make some non-drab-modern-military-shooter games"?

When someone complains about day-one DLC, why are they not met with, "Well, if you're so passionate about it you should become a game developer and make games without day-one DLC"?

It can be applied to every single criticism of absolutely anything.
You see, there is a valid argument there. I argued time and time again that you should put either money or effort where your mouth is or shut up. Nobody is entitled to anything. You do not get what you want if you are willing to sacrifice something to make it true. And guess what, if people are willing to pay and create sexy amazon woman in chainmail bikini that spends more time flaunting their T'n'A to the screen than swinging the sword and not willing to pay or create same amazon in more sensible armor that spends most of her time chopping enemies guess what you will get.
So should I assume that either (a) you have never complained about or criticised any aspect of any video game ever since you knew you should either put your money/effort where you mouth is or shut up or (b) you are a busily employed game developer who is making great sacrifices in order to produce the perfect game according to your own standards?

Because that is the standard that the "do it yourself or shut up" argument demands of everyone it is used against, as well as those who use it, unless they wish to be hypocritical. It is not a realistic standard.

In the case of media and entertainment it makes even less sense since people generally aren't going to play a game that they themselves made for purposes of enjoyment.
 

nuttshell

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TheRiddler said:
What does "The Anatomy of a Horse" mean? I'm unfamiliar with this phrase.
I think it has to do with flogging a dead horse [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flogging_a_dead_horse].
 

carnex

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Zhukov said:
carnex said:
So should I assume that either (a) you have never complained about or criticised any aspect of any video game ever since you knew you should either put your money/effort where you mouth is or shut up or (b) you are a busily employed game developer who is making great sacrifices in order to produce the perfect game according to your own standards?

Because that is the standard that the "do it yourself or shut up" argument demands of everyone it is used against, as well as those who use it, unless they wish to be hypocritical. It is not a realistic standard.

In the case of media and entertainment it makes even less sense since people generally aren't going to play a game that they themselves made for purposes of enjoyment.
It's not realistic standard to expect doing nothing but complaining until it turns into whining to change anything. I hear that it's not fair argument again and again when in fact it's not fair to expect people to sacrifice for you and you to do nothing and reap the benefits.

I actually did sacrifice time and money to further goals I wanted. I have put my money and effort. In past and I will do it in the future. It's the only way one should be able to gain anything.
 

Zhukov

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carnex said:
Zhukov said:
carnex said:
So should I assume that either (a) you have never complained about or criticised any aspect of any video game ever since you knew you should either put your money/effort where you mouth is or shut up or (b) you are a busily employed game developer who is making great sacrifices in order to produce the perfect game according to your own standards?

Because that is the standard that the "do it yourself or shut up" argument demands of everyone it is used against, as well as those who use it, unless they wish to be hypocritical. It is not a realistic standard.

In the case of media and entertainment it makes even less sense since people generally aren't going to play a game that they themselves made for purposes of enjoyment.
It's not realistic standard to expect doing nothing but complaining until it turns into whining to change anything. I hear that it's not fair argument again and again when in fact it's not fair to expect people to sacrifice for you and you to do nothing and reap the benefits.

I actually did sacrifice time and money to further goals I wanted. I have put my money and effort. In past and I will do it in the future. It's the only way one should be able to gain anything.
You dodged the question.

Do you ever complain about or criticise things that you are not personally tirelessly working to correct? If so, then it would be hypocritical of you to use the "Make it yourself or shut up" argument.

Also, I don't think people who criticise video games on an internet forum expect things to change because they wrote a post. I certainly don't. Complaining and criticising is generally what we do when we cannot actively change things ourselves.
 

wulf3n

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Zhukov said:
So should I assume that either (a) you have never complained about or criticised any aspect of any video game ever since you knew you should either put your money/effort where you mouth is or shut up or (b) you are a busily employed game developer who is making great sacrifices in order to produce the perfect game according to your own standards?

Because that is the standard that the "do it yourself or shut up" argument demands of everyone it is used against, as well as those who use it, unless they wish to be hypocritical. It is not a realistic standard.
Common misconceptions.

1) Not all criticisms stem from, or imply a desire for change. A one off complaint or "criticism" is likely just an expression of disappointment nothing more. However the persistence of the gender debate implies a strong desire for the industry to change, which is fine, but the humble criticism is not up to the task. As Great mind once said.
[quote = "Albert Einstein"]Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.[/quote]

2) "Doing something about it"/"Lead by Example"/"Make it yourself" while arguably poor choices of words, all stem from the same place "Take a proactive approach", not necessarily expecting said person to drop everything in their life to start making games. It could be as simple as a Petition or Facebook page asking for better female characters, or perhaps a fan run marketing campaign to raise awareness for games that have good female characters.

Just look at how effective the Retake Mass-Effect efforts were. It wasn't all just bitching in threads [not that their wasn't an annoying amount of that].

kongajinken said:
...snip...
An interesting outlook. While I don't disagree that side one's main problem is the trend, all too often their words belie that intent. Criticizing a trend is different to criticizing a specific game. When every game with a sexualized female character is criticized it's understandable that side two would assume that sexualisation is the complaint not the trend.
 

carnex

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I did not dodge the question. You asked the question that was designed to promote your position no matter what the answer is, not further the discussion. I didn't say "make better one yourself" but "do something about it". There is wolds of difference there.

Yes I do complain about things that I can't influence to any degree. But that's that I can't influence. Even then I still look for a way. Problem is people CAN influence if they are customers. They can but they are unwilling since it will diminish their personal pleasure and enjoyment.

I my seem hostile, but I'm just tired of people who think never do anything and demand everything. That expect everyone to take every risk for them and then suck it up when they don't appreciate that one bit.
 

Eve Charm

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Eh the thing with retake mass effect is they only really changed the ending of a game or added a downloadable scene to be exact, Something that for the amount of complaining that went on, really didn't cost anywhere near as much as making a game.

When it comes to the millions of dollars in making games, Market data is the most influential piece of the pie. As much as people scream " we want more X in game" when a dev try's to answer that call a lot of the time people tend to scowl at it and whine " This isn't the exact X I wanted" or hell "I wanted it made, I'm not gonna buy it though"

Perfect example, Dark Stalkers, Capcom on stage announce on stage at a gaming convention "How many people want Dark Stalkers!" Crowd goes wild, I think they even asked a price and people in the crowd were holding up 20's. How many people bought Dark Stalkers, Almost no one.

On the flip side lets look at all the JRPG's and other Japanese games that have been localized since February, Bravely Default on the 3ds, a ton of vita titles like Tokiden, Dangonroppa, deception 4, conception 2, demon gaze, and PS3 got deception 4 also another atelier game, witch and the hundred knights, Raganok. People are just eating these games up left and right. Even with them basically falling out one on top another one they are still going " Hey guys are you gonna go crazy and buy if we announce this?, Crowd goes crazy and actually buys it. Danganroppa 2 got greenlite and announced 3 weeks after the first one came out, coming out 5 6 months later and those people that buy the games went crazy. Sony themselves just announced 3 more titles that were iffy in coming to the west.

If a dedicated market exists for something, companies will do what they can to make money off and for that market. For that market to exist people have to actually buy the games that come out for it, no whine louder.
 

carnex

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Retake the Mass Effect was the single stupidest thing that gained momentum in gamin culture i can remember off.

As for the rest I agree 100%
 

ForumSafari

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Zhukov said:
Why does this argument only ever see the light of day in relation to gender stuff?
I think partially it's due to the perception that the people complaining are doing so purely for the sake of complaining and don't actually give a damn about gaming as a medium, instead ordering companies to take what might be a significant risk on making a game that, if we're honest, they'd probably not buy anyway.

At least with military shooters and DLC it's obvious that the people complaining have a familiarity with the issues in game retail and would almost certainly buy the product they're asking for.