Philosophy versus Science, the ultimate experiment.

[P00dle]

I don't know if this experiment has been done, most likely not since there is an infinite amount sources of error to take in consideration, but if it's possible what answers wouldn't it give us?

So here is the experiment:
First you have to state a fact, (unless you count skynet from the terminator franchise) no company or scientists has ever made an AI with ability to create it's own patterns or change them by themself and therefore:

If a robot is given a task it will solve the problem the same way everytime assuming it "forgets" it has done it before. Another identical robot will also do it the exact same way.

But people and animals solves problem differently! Why? Genes and Surroundings is what forms us, so if you eliminate does differences would we act like robots?

Here is the experiment, you breed two rats with the exact(!!) same DNA. You put them in two seperate identical boxes in the exact same way. The boxes should have identical pressure, temperature etc...
You should feed them the same food at the same time, interfere with them at the same time and... well you get the point.

Now science would say that the rats would act exactly the same. The exact same movement pattern at the exact same time. But perhaps there are other forces controlling us that would prevent this from working.

I know the experiment is almost impossible to make but what's your opinions? Could this answer our questions about higher forces controlling us?

 

[Labyrinth]

Actually, I'm debating (effectively) that topic soon in Philosophy. The actual topic is "that free will does not exist" so my team, affirmative, are using the argument that, although hugely complex, we cannot defy what makes us "us". As we don't have complete control over what we are, we cannot have complete control over what we do. Ergo, free will is an illusion.

The problem with that hypothetical is that not only would you need to breed them the same way, but you would need, from birth, to give them exactly the same stimuli. That's not possible unfortunately.

 

[Bellvedere]

I think there was some quote about the human mind that if it were simple enough for us to understand than we would be too simple to understand that. I think that also applies to animals even something as basic as a rat seeing as we haven't figured them out either.

And you're right the experiment would be impossible seeing as you would need two identical rats (cloning) and you'd have to interact with them the exact same way. It would be very difficult to control.

I doubt there would be higher powers concerned with controlling the way rats respond to the same stimuli.

 

[crudus]

I think you are forgetting about mutations which will affect the experiment. The only way to do this is to do it thousands and thousands of times which I think will only figure out where error is coming from.

 

[UltimatheChosen]

Here is the experiment, you breed two rats with the exact(!!) same DNA.

Impossible, as far as I know. Even clones and identical twins have slightly different DNA. Making two clones of the same rat wouldn't work, either, as there would be variation between them.

 

[Gezza03]

I dont know the answer, but its probably Quantum.

 

[hypothetical fact]

Actually, I'm debating (effectively) that topic soon in Philosophy. The actual topic is "that free will does not exist" so my team, affirmative, are using the argument that, although hugely complex, we cannot defy what makes us "us". As we don't have complete control over what we are, we cannot have complete control over what we do. Ergo, free will is an illusion.

The problem with that hypothetical is that not only would you need to breed them the same way, but you would need, from birth, to give them exactly the same stimuli. That's not possible unfortunately.

You could get pretty reliable results by birthing identical twins in seperate empty white rooms with no distinguishing features, then you leave them there for years before taking a gander at the results.

For some reason Scientists call it the forbidden experiment.

 

[Labyrinth]

You could get pretty reliable results by birthing identical twins in seperate empty white rooms with no distinguishing features, then you leave them there for years before taking a gander at the results.

For some reason Scientists call it the forbidden experiment.

I think it's something along the lines of this weird concept of "ethics". God knows why people are hamstrung by their morality so often. Such a disadvantage in the field.

 

[Xvito]

I don't know if this experiment has been done, most likely not since there is an infinite amount sources of error to take in consideration, but if it's possible what answers wouldn't it give us?

So here is the experiment:
First you have to state a fact, (unless you count skynet from the terminator franchise) no company or scientists has ever made an AI with ability to create it's own patterns or change them by themself and therefore:

If a robot is given a task it will solve the problem the same way everytime assuming it "forgets" it has done it before. Another identical robot will also do it the exact same way.

But people and animals solves problem differently! Why? Genes and Surroundings is what forms us, so if you eliminate does differences would we act like robots?

Here is the experiment, you breed two rats with the exact(!!) same DNA. You put them in two seperate identical boxes in the exact same way. The boxes should have identical pressure, temperature etc...
You should feed them the same food at the same time, interfere with them at the same time and... well you get the point.

Now science would say that the rats would act exactly the same. The exact same movement pattern at the exact same time. But perhaps there are other forces controlling us that would prevent this from working.

I know the experiment is almost impossible to make but what's your opinions? Could this answer our questions about higher forces controlling us?

The rats would act differently because of random chance, quantum physics and chaos theory... Stuff like that.

Actually, I'm debating (effectively) that topic soon in Philosophy. The actual topic is "that free will does not exist" so my team, affirmative, are using the argument that, although hugely complex, we cannot defy what makes us "us". As we don't have complete control over what we are, we cannot have complete control over what we do. Ergo, free will is an illusion.

The problem with that hypothetical is that not only would you need to breed them the same way, but you would need, from birth, to give them exactly the same stimuli. That's not possible unfortunately.

That's not really proving that free will doesn't exist. We aren't ourselves, we are what we've become. Some things are obviously not like this, some things we are born with. But my point is that there is no you. Because of this, your actions aren't necessarily your actions but you still chose to make them...

 

[Ushario]

Quantum physics is the way science deals with this sort of thing I believe.

Simpler organisms than rats may, under the exact same stimuli in the exact same environment from conception, start behaving as mirrors of each other. The problem is that some things are just too small for us to control.

At the end of the day the movement of a single atom may effect something that changes the outcome of the experiment.

 

[Labyrinth]

That's not really proving that free will doesn't exist. We aren't ourselves, we are what we've become. Some things are obviously not like this, some things we are born with. But my point is that there is no you. Because of this, your actions aren't necessarily your actions but you still chose to make them...

Do we now? How can we tell? On that note, if we are content with our delusion of free will, does it matter anyway?

 

[Xvito]

That's not really proving that free will doesn't exist. We aren't ourselves, we are what we've become. Some things are obviously not like this, some things we are born with. But my point is that there is no you. Because of this, your actions aren't necessarily your actions but you still chose to make them...

Do we now? How can we tell? On that note, if we are content with our delusion of free will, does it matter anyway?

You can be as certain of having free will as you can be certain of existing. When you choose something it's fairly obvious that you have chosen it... At least you as in, what you have become.

 

[P00dle]

Ok thank you so we're done explaining why it wouldn't work!
What i wanted to discuss in this thread was more like would free will make the mice act differently? Because free will is only as far as we know electropulses in the brain wouldn't the mices have the same free will?

The rats would act differently because of random chance, quantum physics and chaos theory... Stuff like that.

I don't want to say you're wrong but i strongly believe there are no such thing as a random chance. Everything can be explained. And that's why you would need to remove every type of source of error

 

[crudus]

o, ok. Then yes, free will will make the mice act differently since the chemical reactions will happen differently.

 

[dtocs]

Actually, I'm debating (effectively) that topic soon in Philosophy. The actual topic is "that free will does not exist" so my team, affirmative, are using the argument that, although hugely complex, we cannot defy what makes us "us". As we don't have complete control over what we are, we cannot have complete control over what we do. Ergo, free will is an illusion.

The problem with that hypothetical is that not only would you need to breed them the same way, but you would need, from birth, to give them exactly the same stimuli. That's not possible unfortunately.

Hey you got your exam on friday too?

 

[Labyrinth]

You can be as certain of having free will as you can be certain of existing. When you choose something it's fairly obvious that you have chosen it... At least you as in, what you have become.

But how can you prove that that decision is anything other than the direct product of everything that makes us up, and hence not a 'choice' per se, but a pre-programmed result?

Hey you got your exam on friday too?

Sorry? No...

 

[7moreDead_v1legacy]

Saying they would be exact mirrors of each other is a pretty basic way of looking at it.

Robots are programmed, they have a set routine in which to play out - or have perimeters they can't break.

Where as living things have numerous amounts of things directing their actions.

Robots do not get hungry, horny, thirsty, bored, agitated and so on, basically they do not 'feel'. Whereas the rats even if the were identical down to the last strand of D.N.A would have theses needs and urges at different times/levels of intensity. One of the rats could stub its paw on something, whilst the other stops to itch its ear due to a tickling hair.

Free will is hampered by the laws of man (and physics I guess) shift eleven.