Physicists Tie Fluid Into a Knot

[martyrdrebel27]

I'm always a little disappointed when these articles don't mention the original theorist, who was scorned by and rejected from scientific circles, and how his grandson is the one who finally completed the work, only to be maimed in a horrible lab accident and end up swearing vengeance on the city/science/his friendly neighbourhood vigilante.

are you a fan of Leftover Crack?

Nope; until I googled them just now, I'd never heard of them. Why?

because the only other time i'd heard the exact phrase Thunderous Cacophony was in the intro to their album Fuck World Trade.

 

[Danny Ocean]

so... science is magic? that's what I always take away from these articles. I get so excited at the continuing accomplishments of humanity, but everytime i read one of these articles, the details are just waaaay over my head. leaving me with no other logical conclusion than "yup, magic."

I'm not so sure this is an accomplishment to be particularly proud of, not yet anyway. Far from being a productive world changing thing it's more studying of pointless minutiae, or a rich man buying a better car. The money could have been better spent.

The scientific community has made some amazing and worthwhile discoveries over the years- but that is not to say everything they do is productive and worthwhile.

Tbh im getting kinda bored with this science fanboyism.

 

[TheRussian]

More like "Physicists Tie Fluid Air Bubbles into a Knot", but I understand why this breakthrough is important nonetheless, it will lead to practical uses of non-dissipating vortex gases and liquids, such as plasma rifles! And I just realized that someone has said the exact same thing above. Ninjas.

 

[WanderingFool]

blah, blah science blah, blah
The researchers' findings in creating a knot are relevant to many fields, and could lead to advances blah plasma physics, blah and exotic superfluids blah
blah, blah more science blah, blah

So you're saying we're one step closer to plasma rifles? I think that's what you're trying to say.
Then I aprove.

Spoiler: Plasma weapons, you say?

Sign me up...

 

[Evil Smurf]

Is'n't science great?

 

[Mr.Squishy]

So with all this talk of plasma weapons...I'm feeling an urge to take a Trip To Vegas. Actually, screw that - I'll make my own vegas - a new vegas, if you will - with blackjack and hookers.

 

[Treblaine]

Technically speaking the plasma COULD be made out of a metal.

So you would have plasma based on metal fired out of a gun. Though my thought is that the plasma rifle can basically work on air. Because it really is nothing but superheated matter and you could pretty much suck in air and fire out plasma, so limitless ammo seems nice and of course the fact that it has special applications for space combat. You can take a bullet and patch up the hull, you can't really do much to a shot that liquefies whatever it touches..

Well I hate to be a sci-fi weapons party pooper, but a projectile's strength is far more important than it's temperature.

The thing about trying to heat up a projectile to a useful temperature is that it'll be radiating and conducting it's heat at an extremely high rate all the way to the target, likely losing a significant proportion of it's energy to warming up the environment. But with most of the energy of a projectile in Kinetic energy, it retains it a lot better (no velocity loss through a vacuum) and deposits it with much more effectiveness. And it's good to put as much energy as you can into the kinetic component as it improves its ballistic performance.

Defence against a projectile that depends on extreme heat (Plasma) is easy, a thin film of water. Water has one of the highest heat capacities in the universe and the vaporising water into steam would disrupt the plasma projectile. It is the objective of body armour to change kinetic energy into heat energy.

Trying to literally melt through armour is pretty inefficient, if you're only after making an "inconvenient hole".

Welders use heat as they are trying to have very controlled affect. Cutting through bulkheads is almost never EVER done with "welding" that is "melting" through the metal. It's pretty neat actually, they heat up a spot of the metal with a blow torch till yellow hot then they don't need the flame any more, they switch to pure oxygen, blasting it onto the iron it burns away at the metal which heats up the adjacent metal enough (from the burning) that it will burn when the pure oxygen is blasted over it. But this can't be applied to a projectile, which impacts in microseconds and this cutting process even with 100% pure oxygen and almost white hot temperatures takes about 1 second per few millimeters.

The images you see of damage caused by the warheads of anti-tank rocket ... it may leave the impression the chemical explosive warhead "melted" through the target due to the shape of the metal being similar to after welding. But that's obviously not what's been going on as if you study a weld immediately after they remove the torch, the weld point is so hot it's glowing orange or yellow. But study a piece of tank armour immediately after penetrated by an explosive penetrator, there isn't any molten steel. It penetrates almost entirely from the extreme focused pressure of the explosives. Under such pressure the solid appears to "flow"

Considering bulkheads and armour in general have to be large, it's simple economy that they can't be made of as exotic materials as small projectiles. So small bullets can be very hard, dense and fired at high velocity that's a good way to make holes.

And the advantage of using plasma air, well assuming the plasma is somehow held together that doesn't give you unlimited ammo as you have a huge energy demand, that ammo would be used up ultra fast... Chemical energy from smokeless-powder is much more efficient, compact and applicable plus you have guaranteed "ammo" supply, you don't have to worry about being unable to use the air because it's raining and you'd suck in too much water to your plasma rifle.

 

[1337mokro]

Technically speaking the plasma COULD be made out of a metal.

So you would have plasma based on metal fired out of a gun. Though my thought is that the plasma rifle can basically work on air. Because it really is nothing but superheated matter and you could pretty much suck in air and fire out plasma, so limitless ammo seems nice and of course the fact that it has special applications for space combat. You can take a bullet and patch up the hull, you can't really do much to a shot that liquefies whatever it touches..

Well I hate to be a sci-fi weapons party pooper, but a projectile's strength is far more important than it's temperature.

The thing about trying to heat up a projectile to a useful temperature is that it'll be radiating and conducting it's heat at an extremely high rate all the way to the target, likely losing a significant proportion of it's energy to warming up the environment. But with most of the energy of a projectile in Kinetic energy, it retains it a lot better (no velocity loss through a vacuum) and deposits it with much more effectiveness. And it's good to put as much energy as you can into the kinetic component as it improves its ballistic performance.

Defence against a projectile that depends on extreme heat (Plasma) is easy, a thin film of water. Water has one of the highest heat capacities in the universe and the vaporising water into steam would disrupt the plasma projectile. It is the objective of body armour to change kinetic energy into heat energy.

Trying to literally melt through armour is pretty inefficient, if you're only after making an "inconvenient hole".

Welders use heat as they are trying to have very controlled affect. Cutting through bulkheads is almost never EVER done with "welding" that is "melting" through the metal. It's pretty neat actually, they heat up a spot of the metal with a blow torch till yellow hot then they don't need the flame any more, they switch to pure oxygen, blasting it onto the iron it burns away at the metal which heats up the adjacent metal enough (from the burning) that it will burn when the pure oxygen is blasted over it. But this can't be applied to a projectile, which impacts in microseconds and this cutting process even with 100% pure oxygen and almost white hot temperatures takes about 1 second per few millimeters.

The images you see of damage caused by the warheads of anti-tank rocket ... it may leave the impression the chemical explosive warhead "melted" through the target due to the shape of the metal being similar to after welding. But that's obviously not what's been going on as if you study a weld immediately after they remove the torch, the weld point is so hot it's glowing orange or yellow. But study a piece of tank armour immediately after penetrated by an explosive penetrator, there isn't any molten steel. It penetrates almost entirely from the extreme focused pressure of the explosives. Under such pressure the solid appears to "flow"

Considering bulkheads and armour in general have to be large, it's simple economy that they can't be made of as exotic materials as small projectiles. So small bullets can be very hard, dense and fired at high velocity that's a good way to make holes.

And the advantage of using plasma air, well assuming the plasma is somehow held together that doesn't give you unlimited ammo as you have a huge energy demand, that ammo would be used up ultra fast... Chemical energy from smokeless-powder is much more efficient, compact and applicable plus you have guaranteed "ammo" supply, you don't have to worry about being unable to use the air because it's raining and you'd suck in too much water to your plasma rifle.

That would be problem if not for space (and air being a very shitty conductor)

You know the almost perfect vacuum where there are no particles to absorb heat energy, allowing it to basically be 99.99 conserved and transferred to the target. Now yes a bulk head would not be effectively harmed. But again Space. You are flying a pressurized tin can through a vacuum.

The point is not destruction, but irreparable damage to the point of non-function or destabilization.

The science end of it all is just speculation for now, the weapon itself is highly inefficient, requiring basically a small scale matter accelerator to even fire it. But the dream is sometimes more fun than the actual science. So let's dream of proton beams and plasma rifles shall we?

 

[Treblaine]

That would be problem if not for space (and air being a very shitty conductor)

You know the almost perfect vacuum where there are no particles to absorb heat energy, allowing it to basically be 99.99 conserved and transferred to the target. Now yes a bulk head would not be effectively harmed. But again Space. You are flying a pressurized tin can through a vacuum.

The point is not destruction, but irreparable damage to the point of non-function or destabilization.

The science end of it all is just speculation for now, the weapon itself is highly inefficient, requiring basically a small scale matter accelerator to even fire it. But the dream is sometimes more fun than the actual science. So let's dream of proton beams and plasma rifles shall we?

Well you may not have conduction in space but in terms of radiation, what are you radiating to? The inky blackness of space, the background temperature of space is of course 3 degrees Kelvin, radiative heat will be extremely high. Apollo spacecraft needed very thick insulation to stop the crew freezing in a very short time.

And while we are in space, rifle projectiles are extremely effective as there is no air resistance and (usually) no influence of gravity due to the orbit characteristic. So bullets can be fired up to insane velocities that would never be considered in atmosphere and the go exactly where you point them. And again spaceships are pretty good at dealing with extreme temperatures, the side facing the sun gets extremely hot, any side facing away gets extremely cold and of course many parts are heat-durable for re-entry which is not only extreme temperature but also extreme air-flow.

A melted hole would be probably easier to repair than a hole ripped open. High speed impacts create cracks and rip riveted plates open. A melted hole the work is already half done for a welder to come in and patch it up again.

But the dream is sometimes more fun than the actual science.

Well I love the actual science.

If you're going to have magic, have magic, don't apply Clarke's law backwards. That law being: suitably advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

I am of the stance that doesn't like the justification of magical things with "oh, it's science, somehow". Kojima overused that way too much with nanomachines, when we were all content with accepting it as magic.

My science dream is following the real principals to a speculative result... not working backwards from things to a selective "sciencey" explanation.

You can have your proton beams and plasma rifles, but it's not accurate to call it science. It's science chic it's taking the superficial aspects of science, but not the real depth, not the real fun of it.

 

[Zen Toombs]

It's days like this that I remember why I got into Science.

 

[Thunderous Cacophony]

are you a fan of Leftover Crack?

Nope; until I googled them just now, I'd never heard of them. Why?

because the only other time i'd heard the exact phrase Thunderous Cacophony was in the intro to their album Fuck World Trade.

Hmm. I can't remember if I'd heard the phrase before, or if I just combined two words that I think sound wonderful to say out loud.

 

[1337mokro]

That would be problem if not for space (and air being a very shitty conductor)

You know the almost perfect vacuum where there are no particles to absorb heat energy, allowing it to basically be 99.99 conserved and transferred to the target. Now yes a bulk head would not be effectively harmed. But again Space. You are flying a pressurized tin can through a vacuum.

The point is not destruction, but irreparable damage to the point of non-function or destabilization.

The science end of it all is just speculation for now, the weapon itself is highly inefficient, requiring basically a small scale matter accelerator to even fire it. But the dream is sometimes more fun than the actual science. So let's dream of proton beams and plasma rifles shall we?

Well you may not have conduction in space but in terms of radiation, what are you radiating to? The inky blackness of space, the background temperature of space is of course 3 degrees Kelvin, radiative heat will be extremely high. Apollo spacecraft needed very thick insulation to stop the crew freezing in a very short time.

And while we are in space, rifle projectiles are extremely effective as there is no air resistance and (usually) no influence of gravity due to the orbit characteristic. So bullets can be fired up to insane velocities that would never be considered in atmosphere and the go exactly where you point them. And again spaceships are pretty good at dealing with extreme temperatures, the side facing the sun gets extremely hot, any side facing away gets extremely cold and of course many parts are heat-durable for re-entry which is not only extreme temperature but also extreme air-flow.

A melted hole would be probably easier to repair than a hole ripped open. High speed impacts create cracks and rip riveted plates open. A melted hole the work is already half done for a welder to come in and patch it up again.

But the dream is sometimes more fun than the actual science.

Well I love the actual science.

If you're going to have magic, have magic, don't apply Clarke's law backwards. That law being: suitably advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

I am of the stance that doesn't like the justification of magical things with "oh, it's science, somehow". Kojima overused that way too much with nanomachines, when we were all content with accepting it as magic.

My science dream is following the real principals to a speculative result... not working backwards from things to a selective "sciencey" explanation.

You can have your proton beams and plasma rifles, but it's not accurate to call it science. It's science chic it's taking the superficial aspects of science, but not the real depth, not the real fun of it.

I get the feeling your getting a bit arrogant and obtuse here (I AM A SCIENTIST! field of specialty classified). I may not be a physicist but radiation has no fucking thing to do with the heat I am talking about. Heat diminishes because it "radiates" out to the environment. Heat, as in the energy we call heat is actually only transferable between matter. Heat does not "radiate" away, it is passed on to other particles, there is electromagnetic radiation generated by a source of heat sure but that heat is basically the green glow you get from the blast from the made up plasma rifles and that warm fuzzy feeling you get from it. So out of the three main ways of heat transferal the only one that remains is electromagnetic radiation which is a fairly low amount of energy lost in comparison to how it would behave on earth.

The Apollo craft needed insulation because of heat maintenance. To protect them from space radiation and the heat during re-entry. The stuff that basically kills any living thing because well... nothing to stop or absorb radiation in space and well 1650 degrees is not a comfortable temperature. In fact the heat from running the electronics was more than enough to heat the entire thing on a regular mission. No heating system needed (tough it of course was present just in case and to continually heat vital system that you did not want to leave up to chance).

The problem was COOLING the damned thing. Because the only way to get rid of it is... radiation. In fact they have a sprayer cooling system to deal with overheating issues. They have fucking radiators in the cargo bay doors that can be sprayed with water so the water gets heated and EVAPORATES into space. They even have a COOLING system running through the entire cabin to ensure that it does not overheat. There is an entire system on the ship dedicated to getting RID of excess heat because in space it has almost no where to go. (notice that the most effective cooling mechanics are apparently conduction, absent in space)

Your Kinetic energy argument utterly fails because it is so effective in space. The kinetic energy itself has shit all to do with the damage inflicted. The design of the bullet has all to do with it. If I launch a regular bullet in space it will pass straight through you inflicting minimal damage because it is moving at such a high speed without friction slowing it down. Now would you fire a specialized bullet intent on shredding the hull. Fine. Or you could shoot a super-heated ball of plasma at it that melts the hull plating, overheats their systems, burns circuitry, wastes their oxygen, is guaranteed to create fire hazards and of course just looks awesome.

Though I would challenge you to put your hypothesis of Melt vs Tear to the test. Get a sheet of metal and Tear it. Now repair it. Get a sheet of metal and Melt a hole in it. Now repair it. You are a SCIENTIST after all. You should be well acquainted with testing your claims.

I would have thought a SCIENTIST would have been able to separate hypothetical discussions and speculation from magic. Despite me never once attempting to even explain the way my imaginary plasma gun would work, merely stating that as plasma acts like a liquid a vortex could be used to channel it into a direction and the effects of the gun on matter, you equate this somehow to me pulling a "It's magic" explanation out of my ass?

Bad form. Especially for a SCIENTIST.

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

Science! Interesting at times!

Now make me a plasma rifle. There are fiends I need to vaporize... <.<

 

[Treblaine]

I get the feeling your getting a bit arrogant and obtuse here (I AM A SCIENTIST! field of specialty classified). I may not be a physicist but radiation has no fucking thing to do with the heat I am talking about.

Sorry. I'm not saying you have to be scientific.

Heat diminishes because it "radiates" out to the environment. Heat, as in the energy we call heat is actually only transferable between matter. Heat does not "radiate" away, it is passed on to other particles, there is electromagnetic radiation generated by a source of heat sure but that heat is basically the green glow you get from the blast from the made up plasma rifles and that warm fuzzy feeling you get from it. So out of the three main ways of heat transferal the only one that remains is electromagnetic radiation which is a fairly low amount of energy lost in comparison to how it would behave on earth.

Hmm, I can't continue this discussion in any scientific terms as that is just wrong.

Your Kinetic energy argument utterly fails because it is so effective in space. The kinetic energy itself has shit all to do with the damage inflicted. The design of the bullet has all to do with it. If I launch a regular bullet in space it will pass straight through you inflicting minimal damage because it is moving at such a high speed without friction slowing it down. Now would you fire a specialized bullet intent on shredding the hull. Fine. Or you could shoot a super-heated ball of plasma at it that melts the hull plating, overheats their systems, burns circuitry and of course just looks awesome.

That kind of attitude is against forum rules and is also not true.

And I'll add that nothing stops the projectile being a projectile of thermite, so it penetrates very well AND creates heat damage if heat damage is so needed.

burns circuitry

I thought we were talking about shooting through the vacuum of space? Where is the oxygen to burn?

If oxygen is around to burn, then I raise you incendiary bullets. Really nasty stuff.

Though best of all, 20mm auto-cannon shells. Now THOSE will FUBAR [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_slang_terms#FUBAR] and there are even shotgun sized versions for hand portable explosive destruction. Oh and of course, 40mm grenades. They'll work great in space if you are firing from within an orbit there won't be any influence of gravity in your frame of reference.

And most of this is 20th century technology, there is so much more room for improvement.

Firearms rule!

Though I would challenge you to put your hypothesis of Melt vs Tear to the test. Get a sheet of metal and Tear it. Now repair it. Get a sheet of metal and Melt a hole in it. Now repair it. You are a SCIENTIST after all. You should be well aware with testing your claims.

I would have thought a SCIENTIST would have been able to separate hypothetical discussions and speculation from magic. Despite me never once attempting to even explain the way my imaginary plasma gun would work, merely stating that as plasma acts like a liquid a vortex could be used to channel it into a direction and the effects of the gun on matter, you equate this somehow to me pulling a "It's magic" explanation out of my ass?

Bad form. Especially for a SCIENTIST.

A hole is easily fixed. Spot weld a plate over it or if narrow enough just get your welding torch, melt a bead and drop it in the hole. Molten steel has a very high surface tension, it'll stick around it.

A split rivet or weld seam. You need to cut out the split and then re-do it from scratch.


"Despite me never once attempting to even explain"

But

" merely stating that as plasma acts like a liquid a vortex could be used to channel it into a direction and the effects of the gun"

Is kind of an explanation.

you equate this somehow to me pulling a "It's magic" explanation

Did I say that about what you said? I don't remember that. I certainly didn't intend that.

Anyway, I think we are getting off on the wrong foot, perhaps it's best we drop it here? I never meant to imply anything about you nor I.

 

[Treblaine]

DOUBLE POST

 

[1337mokro]

I get the feeling your getting a bit arrogant and obtuse here (I AM A SCIENTIST! field of specialty classified). I may not be a physicist but radiation has no fucking thing to do with the heat I am talking about.

Sorry. I'm not saying you have to be scientific.

Heat diminishes because it "radiates" out to the environment. Heat, as in the energy we call heat is actually only transferable between matter. Heat does not "radiate" away, it is passed on to other particles, there is electromagnetic radiation generated by a source of heat sure but that heat is basically the green glow you get from the blast from the made up plasma rifles and that warm fuzzy feeling you get from it. So out of the three main ways of heat transferal the only one that remains is electromagnetic radiation which is a fairly low amount of energy lost in comparison to how it would behave on earth.

Hmm, I can't continue this discussion in any scientific terms as that is just wrong.

Your Kinetic energy argument utterly fails because it is so effective in space. The kinetic energy itself has shit all to do with the damage inflicted. The design of the bullet has all to do with it. If I launch a regular bullet in space it will pass straight through you inflicting minimal damage because it is moving at such a high speed without friction slowing it down. Now would you fire a specialized bullet intent on shredding the hull. Fine. Or you could shoot a super-heated ball of plasma at it that melts the hull plating, overheats their systems, burns circuitry and of course just looks awesome.

That kind of attitude is against forum rules and is also not true.

And I'll add that nothing stops the projectile being a projectile of thermite, so it penetrates very well AND creates heat damage if heat damage is so needed.

burns circuitry

I thought we were talking about shooting through the vacuum of space? Where is the oxygen to burn?

If oxygen is around to burn, then I raise you incendiary bullets. Really nasty stuff.

Though best of all, 20mm auto-cannon shells. Now THOSE will FUBAR [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_slang_terms#FUBAR] and there are even shotgun sized versions for hand portable explosive destruction. Oh and of course, 40mm grenades. They'll work great in space if you are firing from within an orbit there won't be any influence of gravity in your frame of reference.

And most of this is 20th century technology, there is so much more room for improvement.

Firearms rule!

Though I would challenge you to put your hypothesis of Melt vs Tear to the test. Get a sheet of metal and Tear it. Now repair it. Get a sheet of metal and Melt a hole in it. Now repair it. You are a SCIENTIST after all. You should be well aware with testing your claims.

I would have thought a SCIENTIST would have been able to separate hypothetical discussions and speculation from magic. Despite me never once attempting to even explain the way my imaginary plasma gun would work, merely stating that as plasma acts like a liquid a vortex could be used to channel it into a direction and the effects of the gun on matter, you equate this somehow to me pulling a "It's magic" explanation out of my ass?

Bad form. Especially for a SCIENTIST.

A hole is easily fixed. Spot weld a plate over it or if narrow enough just get your welding torch, melt a bead and drop it in the hole. Molten steel has a very high surface tension, it'll stick around it.

A split rivet or weld seam. You need to cut out the split and then re-do it from scratch.


"Despite me never once attempting to even explain"

But

" merely stating that as plasma acts like a liquid a vortex could be used to channel it into a direction and the effects of the gun"

Is kind of an explanation.

you equate this somehow to me pulling a "It's magic" explanation

Did I say that about what you said? I don't remember that. I certainly didn't intend that.

Anyway, I think we are getting off on the wrong foot, perhaps it's best we drop it here? I never meant to imply anything about you nor I.

Sure if you want to drop it fine. I am still going to write a quick response however.

Yes heat doesn't just Radiate off. It is always transferred. It has to go Somewhere and to Go somewhere it has to take some kind of form, the method of transference might be called radiation but that really is nothing else but a wave of energy moving through particles in this instance photons.

Oxygen is on the ship. Though I do admit that is a rather big assumption on my part as it might be aliens who don't breathe oxygen. If you are just going to fire thermite why fire it in bullets. Use missiles. Unable to miss that way with targeting systems and a thermite bullet is basically an unguided missile at that point (also thermite is not a guaranteed hit because it has to mix properly and has no actual direction). Who says a plasma ball STOPS at the hull? You think a ball of plasma splashes on the hull? It keeps moving. I think you are working off the size of a regular bullet, you did see the vortex in the movie right? It will leave a bigger hole than a bead.

That explanation in no way even attempts to explain the function of a plasma rifle. I could literally copy paste "Super Soaker" in there and the explanation would not change because all I am talking about is the way of delivering a liquid over a distance.

 

[Olas]

so... science is magic? that's what I always take away from these articles. I get so excited at the continuing accomplishments of humanity, but everytime i read one of these articles, the details are just waaaay over my head. leaving me with no other logical conclusion than "yup, magic."

Now now, what is this Arthur C. Clarke rule? Any form of technology that is sufficiently advanced will be indistinguishable from magic. This kind of feat is incredible NOW, whereas as little as 10 or 20 years ago anybody making the claim would be laughed off the stage. Fifty years ago, anyone who is NOT a hippy (Because they'd just go "Far out!".) would be looking for aliens or communists. A hundred years or more? Burned at the stake for witchcraft.

Science is fucking amazing at times.

Actually it says in the article that the concept for this has been around for 50 - 100 years so possibly not.

I just want to know how much longer it'll be until we can create this.

 

[FalloutJack]

SNIP

Clarke rule still stands. And...once somebody kills Kratos.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

Damn, for a moment I thought they had finally figured out how to break physics.
As it turns out, this was not as awesome as I imagined, though it was still very awesome indeed.