Piracy is harmless?

[Dommyboy]

I'm sick of these piracy threads. Face it, you can't justify breaching copyright law.

 

[Nincompoop]

The reason I don't feel bad when I pirate movies is this; I would eventually see it on the television without ever buying the movie, so I haven't damaged anything, as I wouldn't buy it anyways.
I buy some movies though, but only those who I have seen and just want to own.

Games or other software though, is something I am concerned about. I have pirated some softwares (e.g. Word or Alcohol 120%) but the games I have pirated are only because I want to test if I can run the game (or if I would actually like the game). However, I might consider pirating a game, for playing purposes, but I would not do that to a small company. Even though I do not have a lot of money I try my best to support indie developers (mainly Zero Point Software and Wolfire) because I am so impressed by their work.
Yay! According to my personal morals I am not a monster :>!

Anyways, as long as it is mainstream products and you are sure that no one is really losing money besides the large corporations, I can't see anything particularly disgusting about it, although I think you should buy them legally.

 

[rabidmidget]

It may not have a HUGE effect, but it would be ignorant to say the effect is entirely non-existant. A lot of the justifications for piracy really go down to "because I can", especially when you looks at the huge piracy rates for cheap indie games. Admittedly it is annoying that so much money made by a game goes to the publishers, but pirating a game due to this is a pointless gesture as a publisher would be much more likely to sack a developer, then they would lower their own payrolls.

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

I forgot who wrote this, but it basically sums it up.

" You just worked overtime at some job. Today is now pay day, and you are anticipating your huge check. You go to your boos, who tells you that you make enough money, and that he is keeping half of it for himself. Do you A, demand the money, threatening to sue, and scream bloody murder? Congratulations, you are now a hypocrite. Do you instead, B, accept it and leave? Congratulations, your a pushover/idiot.

Even if you pirate a little bit and say ' Well, they make enough money anyway.", that saying is bullshit. They worked hard on the product they put in the market, regardless of what you say. So they deserve every penny. At least have the decency to pay for it.

 

[hawkeye52]

i live in england usually where i cant torrent because they have closed all loopholes under the digital economy bill. so i thought when i get back to cyprus i will torrent all the stuff i want here. what have i torrented so far one film over the entire summer holiday since i usually buy the games i want anyway because most of the games i play are multiplayer and unless you go on a hacked server which will most likely have hackers on it then theres no point.

in other words one way of making sure to get rid of pirates is to focus on multiplayer and beef up anti hacking systems within it and try to remove piracy through the use of roaming checks on the multiplayer servers. i know this wont work for quite a few game platforms or games in general but if the developers were so concerned that they were losing out to the pirates on terms of profits then they would have stopped funding pc development years ago so they must be making a profit otherwise there just be no point

 

[The Austin]

Pretty much.
Lets stick to movies for now:
People generally only pirate things that they wouldn't buy otherwise, so it's essentially a case of "I'll download it and watch it, or I'll never see it ever".

 

[Kagim]

After much mulling it over while on this site I came to this conclusion a long time ago.

I honestly don't give a shit if people do it. It is there decision.

What pisses me off is when people make themselves out to be victims or hero's because they file share.

Its the overall sense of entitlement that a lot of people give off when talking about file sharing.

Its the people who think because they can't afford it they have the right to take it for free.

Its the people who scream "You can't prove file sharing hurts profits" while at the same time screaming "File sharing actually ends with more people buying the game". Both situations are equable unprovable for the exact same reasons.

It's the excuses after excuses.

If the people who do it admit they are not victims OR hero's and that they do it just cause they like free shit I wouldn't get an ulcer from this ordeal.

File Sharing isn't a hell worthy sin, and its effects on the industry are not easy to calculate. Honestly i equate it to the severity of petty theft. So morally i couldn't give a shit either, its a choice you make. I choose not to do it. Good for me.

It's just when people make themselves out to be so hurt victims i pull my hair out in rage.

"Well if i don't download halo i could never play it!"

All i can really say is So? if you live in a situation where your financial worries are simply "I can't play the newest games right away" Count yourself lucky.

It's not the crime but the justification that makes me give the finger to people who file share illegally. Just stop trying to act like you deserve hours of free entertainment and many of us will get off your back.

Although when it comes to harm i can understand WHY publisher don't like it. These games are back by millions of dollars in investments.

I would feel the same way if my book got published and someone just photo copied it and started handing out copies for free. Hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars in time can go into writing a book. Only for it to be distributed agaisnt your wishes? That would piss me right the hell off.

 

[Funkiest Monkey]

Piracy is bad, piracy is wrong, but I still do it from time to time. I don't defend it though.

 

[Gigano]

It's certainly not the worst of crimes, and copyright laws could use several adjustments to be more user and digital age friendly, but in the end producers and artists should be able to make money off their work, which intellectual property and the enforcement thereof seem to be the only viable solution to so far.

I for one would reduce the time of legal monopoly rights protection on digital media to 7 years rather than the 50 - 70, given that a 7 year run should've given a reasonable rate of return on pretty much any digital product, and only offer protection to media officially released in each region - the ones DVD's are so anti-consumerist and annoyingly divided into could be used - since the owner wouldn't even be trying to cash in on the IP otherwise (i.e. what the purpose of the laws are protecting; their purpose is not to deny viewing, but to ensure claimed payment...). Other than that, ensure that consumers can by law make back-ups of their legal products, even if it means cracking a copy protection.

Overall, a better and more modern legal balance between industry interests and consumer rights is needed, but in the end pirating stuff is neither legal, nor really ethical.

 

[Geekosaurus]

The reason I don't feel bad when I pirate movies is this; I would eventually see it on the television without ever buying the movie, so I haven't damaged anything, as I wouldn't buy it anyways.

But the broadcasters have paid for it and you pay your TV license to watch it.

 

[oranger]

Saying it "costs" 50 million to make a "good" game and that dev costs are what makes the final price is illogical. The final price is artificial, a mutual decision between large publishers. This is proven by the wildly variable dev costs with little difference in final unit price for the products of most major publishers.
And the development cost is directly attached to how many people you have in the assembly line they call a development team, as wages are also artificial.

Back to the point, is "piracy" harmless? no, it is not, but it is also not a cancer like certain people portray it to be. Once you have sold something, it no longer belongs to you.
Why do corporations think they can hold me to a contract post-sale? And how did things get made before the internet, and copyright? The various ages of man happened without copyright just fine.

edit: by "once you have sold something" I mean selling something unconditionally. Like when you give someone behind the counter cash, and they hand you a product without having you agree to anything at all.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

piracy may not hurt the big corporations but they hurt the little guys. if a band like motion city soundtrack has 20% of their audience steal their tracks its no big deal but when a small, local band has their music ripped that 20% is the difference between getting new recording system and just getting a new mic. for small time publishers of video games, music, and other media sources piracy is a huge problem and if the stigma against piracy wasnt in place a large number of teenagers and young adults (a large section of medias audience) will steal these things. just think about it, if you have the means to get something free and without leaving your own home why wouldnt you? dont get me wrong, i do my fair share of downloading but when it comes to indie band/ video games i try and fork out the cash. i may be hypocritical by telling people not to steal while admitting to do it myself but i just think the main victims are the little guys and if we dont support them we are going to be stuck with the same people with their non-innovative ideas for a long time. do you really want to be playing another CoD game while listening to some generic music the rest of your life? we have to support the little guys, for the sake of innovation and creativity

Well the only trouble with that is small guys are less likely to make money regardless of piracy thus piracy is mostly over their head and they have more real and substantial issues to deal with like bootleging which dose hurt them but shearing/trading it for free, I think not?

Also between PC serials and consoles DRM its much harder to play MP games which COD is mostly, this is not about support as much as what is fair for the worlds population as a whole.

piracy may not hurt the big corporations but they hurt the little guys. snip

I've done absolutely no research whatsoever. Bear this in mind.

Surely the small time games aren't pirated as they usually haven't gained enough interest for it to be worth pirating? I can't think of any small-time games that receive much piracy at all.

Pretty much to small means the likely hood of sharing damaging them is very low as small means they don;t have the money to advertise to a larger audience thus don;t really have the chance to get into the bigger market.

Considering how I'm intending to be come an animator, I have to say no. No it is not harmless. I will admit that I'm guilty of downloading pirated stuff, but I've been trying to legitimately purchase when I can.

How is sharing for free not harmless? IMO distribution with the intent to profit is a much greater crime than weed, downloading and tax evasion.

No it is not harmless people lose money.

How?

piracy may not hurt the big corporations but they hurt the little guys. snip

I've done absolutely no research whatsoever. Bear this in mind.

Surely the small time games aren't pirated as they usually haven't gained enough interest for it to be worth pirating? I can't think of any small-time games that receive much piracy at all.

Really? You didn't hear about, say, World of Goo (2d-boy is a 2 man studio), which had a 90% piracy rate? Or Machinarium, which was pirated so much (again, 90%) that they dropped the price 75% in an effort to make some pirates pay at least a tiny bit of money?

Oh yes love those made up numbers.... the trouble is still small fish large pound, while WOG is a nice game its a niche of a niche meaning it has even a smaller audience to sell to than plants vrs zombies.

To me piracy just shows you don't care about video games or supporting them.

Your money does not go to the developer, it goes to the publishers. I disagree with publishers and I see them as a bane on developers. If I had the ability to send money directly to the developers I would gladly do so. As of now, however, I have a big problem with buying games that are not self published.

Ya pubs are bad and have turned gaming in crappy block buster film..................

I think piracy of film and video games is straight-up wrong. Both of those things take a shitton of money to make, and, especially when they're not blockbusters, people taking the cheap route really hurt profits. All this talk about Devs vs Pubs is bullshit, because the argument is you'd rather have the Dev get no money at all than the publisher get a cut of what you pay (Because the Devs, while not having full profit control, get SOMETHING out of it, if only the potential to keep making games).

Musical piracy I have less of a problem with, since most artists make profit through performances anyway. It's still not ideal and you shouldn't do it, but if you pirate something like Thriller where the artist is both very successful and dead, I don't think it's all that bothersome.

Well thats not really the point pubs have changed the landscape and have decimated qaulity as far as I am concerned, I'd rather gaming be what it was 12 years ago than the film industry wanna be it is now....

The Escapist tends to have a harsh opinion of piracy supporters... be warned. In any case I agree with you. Our copyright laws are strange and somewhat ineffectual; the term piracy may be abandoned in the future, perhaps it will be replaced by something like file sharing... you know... what it really is.

Most don't try an see the larger picture they like in what they consume just see the shinnies and turn their minds off for awhile.... The only time I see piracy as a problem is when its trying to make any money off the files,items or links it shares and when it dose it should be a federal crime IMO.

IMO piracy is harmless and blown way out of proportion, most things that are pirated are popular making millions a year in profits and most workers get paid while they were working on the media project so there is no real damage done to the day to day employee,maybe if you get a royalty but thats always a gamble on the profitability and public interest level of a project, if it fails to gain the public's interest it remains a small fish in a large stormy ocean more likely to die or be eaten..

For the most part piracy is a way information is spread outside the highly controlled rackets of retail chains.

However the moment piracy comes in contact with ad revenue,donations or money from direct sell its no better to society than a drug dealer selling crack, where as the common downloader is more dangerous to pizza snacks and green filed bowels .

I really can not see any harm in illicit distribution its a part of how media and information is disseminated to the public and mostly to freethinkers or the poor, its to small to do any real harm, not when the world wide media industry brings in trillions a year beyond what even large nations make.

At the end of the day between popularity and public interest these things harm media more than illicit distribution can as it will always be in the shadows of the main retail system, as it should be.

So what are your thoughts? And please no 2 word/sentence hate on the man or piracy...... we can do better than that dammit.

PS:I have come to a quandary in my CP/IP musings, IMO one needs a license to attempt to make money off copy rights and intellectual properties this leads me to to think that the sell of used media should be leaned against 10% or so, so that the rights owners may profit from the legal sell of their goods as I see no difference in DLC and physical media even if I do not like buying DLC and prefer physical media. What are your thoughts on that? I know its more a lease and they get one chance to make money off the publicized copy righted item but times are a changing and there should be little difference in how physical and digital goods are policed.

All that sound suspiciously like a cry for help from your conscience. Otherwise, you wouldn't have told everyone that you are a Pirate.

Hardly I just wordy and would like to do a CP/OP based discussion.

Piracy's impact is hard to judge, but because the first question you have to ask is how many people that downloaded it would bought it if it wasn't so easy to pirate it in the first place. Something that sadly companies are finding isn't exactly the windfall they where suspecting when they do manage to gimp, or keep games from being pirated for the first couple of months (Spore for example, which is probably why EA shifted focus to picking up slack in the used game market).

I can tell you one thing. All those people that are downloading the game rather then buying it are taking directly from you, me, and everyone else that does pocket. The company still needs to make a profit, so they have to base what they charge for games based on average cost to make them, vs sales expected for the games. I highly doubt game prices would fall if every bought their games, but I do know that the next price jump would be held off longer.

To me piracy just shows you don't care about video games or supporting them.

Your money does not go to the developer, it goes to the publishers. I disagree with publishers and I see them as a bane on developers. If I had the ability to send money directly to the developers I would gladly do so. As of now, however, I have a big problem with buying games that are not self published.

Publishers spend as much if not more then the developers spent making a game advertising it so that it does make money. Many of those games with $30 million budgets had $10-15 million of that used for advertising. It only costs around $10 million to make a current gen game. The publishers take a huge chunk because on top of that many times they gave the developer the funding to make the game in the fist place as well. Not a lot of studios have $50 million laying around to make a couple of games simultaneously and advertise them, plus whatever it cost for them to distribute them. Sure the system could use an overhaul, but it's not exactly the root of all evils.

You re missing the point the vast majority of people that download wont buy it anyway as most of the networks run on a mix of popularity and general archiving&distribution of anything that moves.

piracy may not hurt the big corporations but they hurt the little guys. snip

I've done absolutely no research whatsoever. Bear this in mind.

Surely the small time games aren't pirated as they usually haven't gained enough interest for it to be worth pirating? I can't think of any small-time games that receive much piracy at all.

How about Audiosurf? That was indie and I know a huge, HUGE amount of people downloaded that. I'm sure that hurt them a lot. Also World of Goo, which someone said above.


OP: I used to pirate quite a bit, mainly old movies/games which I just couldn't be stuffed tracking down anymore. But I don't pirate anymore.
Even if a small people were murderers, it would still be the wrong thing to do. Piracy just makes people who pay legitimately pay more...

Not all murders are illegal, between negligence and self defense your absolutes have holes, also a long time ago one can not marry between race or creed and copy right owners had no power to protect their copy right and had to much power to protect their until fair use came in 2 or 3 decades ago.

A better piracy analogy is drugs, pot is your sharing and trading, its mostly harmless until the blackmarket comes in and makes money for harder drugs and weapons, booze is legal was not for a time but that did not last long. Cigarettes are the new great evil for legal drugs akin to the DMCA and the inability for people to backup their purchased media. And prescription drugs are the bread and butter of the industry abused but they are still raking in money. While OTC stuff is more like public domain and thigns that have fallen through the IP/CP cracks.

 

[Nincompoop]

The reason I don't feel bad when I pirate movies is this; I would eventually see it on the television without ever buying the movie, so I haven't damaged anything, as I wouldn't buy it anyways.

But the broadcasters have paid for it and you pay your TV license to watch it.

Exactly, I have 'already' bought it, so to speak. So I'm a monster and a thief because I get to see it a year or two early?

I still think one should buy movies, but when in my case, as with most, we're not actually damaging anything by pirating.

 

[BlumiereBleck]

because you are supposed to buy it the people who made it dont get the money they were promised

 

[Rhiehn]

I think it's acceptable to pirate old media that is no longer sold new. Earthbound for instance, is nigh impossible to find in stores and pirating it hurts no one other than perhaps those who put their copy on ebay.

 

[thedeathscythe]

It does and doesn't hurt them. Piracy in and of itself hurts the companies, but studies have shown that the people who pirate most tend to buy the most product as well, kind of like they tested it. But I think it was one quarter of those heavy pirates didn't pay for it afterwords. And the stuff that those other pirates didn't buy, the stuff they didn't like, also suffers from it. I don't think it's the worst thing in the world, it seems to balance out in the end, but it certainly it's "harmless".

TLR = Piracy isn't "harmless", but with pirates testing their stuff first and buying afterwords, it balances out IMO.

 

[Kagim]

You re missing the point the vast majority of people that download wont buy it anyway as most of the networks run on a mix of popularity and general archiving&distribution of anything that moves.

To that i have to say prove it. Prove to me the majority of the people file sharing games, movies, and music, would never ever have purchased said content otherwise.

To say that as if it were fact is just as baseless as saying file sharing is responsible for X% drop in profits.

Or that file sharing is responsible for X% increase in profits.

Or that everyone who file shares ALWAYS buys what they think are good.

The true numbers are quite honestly impossible to gather.

You can not, in any way shape or form, prove that statement is in the slightest true.

it's another one of those statements that irritates me. Mostly since you gave another guy crap for "making up numbers".

Your making things up to, you just didn't slap a number on it.

 

[joshuaayt]

Oh god. If this thread takes off, I predict at least five dismemberments. A unified community this thread does not make.
Anyway, usual arguments: fat-cat publishers, piracy-does-not-equal-lost-sale, too expensive, etc etc.
Actually, if I were to make any point, it would be that I *want* another video game crash, to weed out all of the shit we get now.
It all makes sense, really- video game crash will lead to less-to-no big companies even entertaining the thought of creating Penis Extender 3D: Rise of the Explosion Creating Naked Chicks, because there is no money in it.
But then, enter people like myself- I genuinely enjoy writing the fiddly little things, not for profit, so much (Though, when I do get a site, that'd be cool too), but for the sake of it. So, hopefully, with the internet, a crash would allow those cute Indie developers to shine.
Not to imply that indie = better, exactly, but at least the people making the games get to make all of the decisions, rather than answer to some rich publisher
EDIT: Oh, right, I also see no ethical ramifications whatsoever for downloading NES roms. Why the hell are they protected? Are there NES stores in America, or something? I know that finding one of those here would be similar to finding one particular baby in a new-york sized bathtub full of babies.

 

[Geekosaurus]

The reason I don't feel bad when I pirate movies is this; I would eventually see it on the television without ever buying the movie, so I haven't damaged anything, as I wouldn't buy it anyways.

But the broadcasters have paid for it and you pay your TV license to watch it.

Exactly, I have 'already' bought it, so to speak. So I'm a monster and a thief because I get to see it a year or two early?

I still think one should buy movies, but when in my case, as with most, we're not actually damaging anything by pirating.

You really think that paying for a television license entitles you to watch any film ever made for free? And that piracy does no damage whatsoever? I think that's extremely narrow-minded and wrong.

 

[Lavi]

Piracy is harmful ;D and that is precisely why I do it.