Piracy is harmless?

[-Samurai-]

We're just going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not going over this over and over.

Though I am curious as to why you dodged the paragraph about your avatar.

Because image copyright is completely different to piracy. Not to mention it was immature and was only used to create further argument.

We will have to disagree. I'm just glad I'm on the right side of the law.

Sigh.

I'll just have to say one last thing;

Concerning the avatar thing:
Copyright violation is copyright violation. It doesn't matter if it's a game, movie, song, or image. It's still breaking the law.

Piracy = copyright violation. So using a copyrighted image without consent is not different from piracy at all.

That puts you on the wrong side of the law.

It was brought up because you claim to be against piracy(copyright infringement), yet you're partaking in it yourself. You lost any credit you had on the topic.

Also; I don't pirate, and I don't condone it. If I download something, it's because I've either already purchased it and don't feel like digging out of the box in the garage, or it's because I'm going to buy it within the next week and want to enjoy it before hand. There's nothing wrong with either of situations.

I just can't stand people running around opposing it when they don't even understand what it is. They go by what the media and corporations have told them and nothing else.

If people would use their brains and think for themselves, they'd see that "piracy" isn't as bad as the media and corporations make it out to be. Can it be harmful? You bet. Is it as bad as they make it seem? Not even close.

Now, I'm done. Quote me all you want, I'm staying out of this topic. You'll be talking to yourself.

 

[Geekosaurus]

Piracy = copyright violation. So using a copyrighted image without consent is not different from piracy at all.

Piracy is a form of copyright violation. I'l willing to bet that the laws on movie piracy aren't exactly the same - word for word - as the laws on image copyright.

It was brought up because you claim to be against piracy(copyright infringement), yet you're partaking in it yourself. You lost any credit you had on the topic.

You said it yourself, I'm against piracy. Films and games.

If I download something, it's because I've either already purchased it and don't feel like digging out of the box in the garage...

Well then you would own two copies, and have only paid for one. Purchasing one game does not entitle you to free copies whenever you want. One payment. One copy. If I break my laptop I can't go to the shops and pick another one off the shelf, claiming 'I've already bought one'.

...or it's because I'm going to buy it within he next week and want to enjoy it before hand.

Again, two copies, one payment.

If people would use their brains and think for themselves, they'd see that "piracy" isn't as bad as the media and corporations make it out to be.

Regardless of how bad piracy is made out to be, if people used their brains they've work out that piracy is immoral and wrong. And, above everything else, against the law.

 

[-Samurai-]

If I download something, it's because I've either already purchased it and don't feel like digging out of the box in the garage...

Well then you would own two copies, and have only paid for one. Purchasing one game does not entitle you to free copies whenever you want. One payment. One copy. If I break my laptop I can't go to the shops and pick another one off the shelf, claiming 'I've already bought one'.

Please. For yourself, just stop.

Downloading a game I own is no different from installing it straight from the cd. Is it piracy then? I'd have one copy on my PC and one on the disk, but I only paid for one. Then I could install it on my laptop, my mothers laptop, and my other PC. Then I'd have 5 copies(including the one on the CD) and only paid for one. Should I buy a new copy for every installation? Can I even install the program? Since that's making a copy.

You're arguing for the sake of arguing and it's getting extremely pathetic.

I get it. You're the white knight of morals and laws. You've never broken a law and aren't currently breaking copyright with your avatar(even though you totally are. How it's written makes no difference. You don't have legal permission to use it.). You're the god of the written law and there are no morals but your own.

Just stop.

 

[JaymesFogarty]

Firstly, the whole is piracy = theft argument is wrong.

Snip

Snippedy snip

I do apologise, but I must butt in here to disagree. When you pirate a game, you are taking the data, and the experience that the game brings, without paying for it. Essentially, it does not matter that the game has not been physically taken; it matters that you have experienced it without giving any money to the developers or the publishers of that game. It's the equivalent of standing in the back of the cinema without buying a ticket, or sneaking into a gig. You're technically not stealing; but you're not paying for the experience it offers.
I'm not going to lie to you or myself; pirates do sometimes decide to pay for the product that they have pirated. But that doesn't excuse the pain developers have trying to make a living, when so many pirates take the experience, and move on. One of my friends used to be a developer in a low-key Indie Team. He's not now though, as he just couldn't make any money. I don't think I need to go into how many sites I've seen, where you can download his game now without paying for it. He's out of a job; and as a result, I have little sympathy for pirates.

How many people do you think would have actually bought his game if piracy wasn't an option?

I don't know; and neither can anyone else. But the money is not what annoyed me. It's the fact that lot's of people could have experienced the game, without contributing at all. The solid statistics were that in the World of Goo sales, 82% of people who played the game pirated it. Only 18% payed for it. Assuming that everyone in the world pirated the game, less than 1/6 of pirates actually contributed something to the developer. I refuse to believe that most, or even 30% of pirates buy an experience after they've pirated the game. World of Goo is a small example of how people would just rather pirate the game. It's like me writing a book over the course of two years. While waiting for the fruits of my labour, my publisher tells me that a large corporate company, (who I couldn't possibly challange purely on its' size) have decided to photocopy my book, and give them away for free. I don't lose any of my stock; I still have every word on every page in the warehouse. But I'm not getting any of the money from it. Isn't that completely unfair to me; I've worked hard to produce something, and now people can get it for free, and I can't do anything about it. And how many people are honestly going to contribute anything after reading these books? Because if they have to make the distinction between paying for the book, or getting the same experience for free, what do you think they'd go for? I don't hate pirates, and I think I might have been a bit critical of them in my previous post. But the fact that someone can just download my friends game, experience it, and then not contribute anything to it is hard to swallow. I must say it again;
pirates are people who do not steal books, music, or games. Nothing physical is taken. But they steal the experience that piece of media offers.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

-snippity-

You're freaking kidding right? How would you like it someone robbed you blind because 'You have enough stuff'? That's seriously the dumbest thing I've heard all day.

Stealing the act of directly removing a unique item from an owner. This dose not compute with the fact in file sharing you are dealing with infinite copies the closest thing to stealing is directly selling the stuff.
========================================================
I am going to skip all the enw posts becuse I am sure no one wants a reply to them(if you do ask me and I shall comply ^^)
Let me sum up how I think it should be

Its in my opinion Copy right needs some tweaking to handle file sharing better, If CP/IP is traded for free with no monetary intensive from ads,donations or unlicensed sale via the distribution of files that link in any way to a whole item then it is fair use. If it is traded under any money attempting scheme it needs to be licensed by the owner of the CP/IP. Furthermore a search site or file distribution site may be exempt by removing any and all infringing material as they find links to unlicensed CP/IP. If the site in question hosts the items itself or from a site it owns or pays to host it may be subject able to counterfitting racket charges.

Modern copy right is nothing but a precursor to full on fascism and the decline of the public's rights and freedoms, as long as the public is allowed to share but not profit from CP/IP then they will remain informed and inspired.

 

[Geekosaurus]

Downloading a game I own is no different from installing it straight from the cd.

I'll admit that I overlooked this for games, but it still stands for film piracy.

You're the white knight of morals and laws.

Because he's the hero we deserve, but not the one it needs right now...

Like you said the first time you quit this thread, we'll just have to disagree. Oh, and I'd just like to stress one last time; piracy is illegal.

 

[Nincompoop]

The reason I don't feel bad when I pirate movies is this; I would eventually see it on the television without ever buying the movie, so I haven't damaged anything, as I wouldn't buy it anyways.

But the broadcasters have paid for it and you pay your TV license to watch it.

Exactly, I have 'already' bought it, so to speak. So I'm a monster and a thief because I get to see it a year or two early?

I still think one should buy movies, but when in my case, as with most, we're not actually damaging anything by pirating.

You really think that paying for a television license entitles you to watch any film ever made for free? And that piracy does no damage whatsoever? I think that's extremely narrow-minded and wrong.

I would see them anyway. We have Canal + which cover all movies (except indie movies), so yes, I would see every movie ever eventually.

I never said I am entitled to do anything, I just said in my exact circumstance, I am not hurting ANYONE.

Apart from all the people you're stealing from.

I'm not stealing from anyone.

Listen. If I download it, I see the movie for free. If I don't download it, I see it 'for free' a year later. Do you understand? Nothing is changing because I download the movie. They are not losing any money they would have gained.
Calling piracy stealing is retarded, and only fits the circumstance when you would have legally bought the movie if it weren't for pirating.

You are required to pay for it. You did not pay for it. No matter how you want to justify your actions it's a form of stealing.

What ever. If that is considered stealing we seriously need to change the criteria for stealing, or use another word for when you actually take something out of someones possession and keep it for yourself.

This has always been the criteria for stealing! At the end of the day, you're trying to justify an illegal act.

Something isn't wrong because it's illegal. This thread is about whether it is wrong or harming someone. There wouldn't be a thread if it was about whether it was illegal or not, because we all can agree on that pirating can get you in jail.

Your argument is that it is illegal, and if that's all that you've got, this isn't much of a discussion.

I believe an 'argumentum ad baculum' is in order.

 

[tjcross]

i don't think piracy is right but it doesn't do enough damage to be a major problem

"Based on these figures, the IPI concludes that Movies Pirates (online and offline) are responsible for:

$5.5 billion in lost annual earnings among U.S workers
141,030 jobs lost
$837 million in lost annual tax revenue
$20.5 billion in lost annual output to all U.S. industries"

Source: http://torrentfreak.com/the-cost-of-movie-piracy-to-the-us/

huh that is quite a bit of damage but then again i don't like movies so i really don't care about movie pirates since in my mind successful movie = bad movie game and pirating a movie is easier than pirating a game (almost any movie can be found on youtube or megavideo with a game you have to find a pirate site that doesn't fill you're computer with viruses then download the game then install it and keep the cd image in your documents so it's using twice the necessary space and have some software that will create virtual drives taking up more space and is always running in the background so you can play) give me the stats for videogame piracy then I'll rethink whether piracy is major or not but i will admit it's a problem for the movie industry

 

[AndyFromMonday]

The problem with that comparison is that food is a necessity and games are a luxury. But if you were to take your generous act of giving away free food, and purposely set up shop right next to say, someone who was selling food as a way to make a living, then it would be kind of "wrong" yes. But that's not what you were saying anyway, just trying to give a (bad) example as how giving away apples would be "wrong".

I was attempting to say how if you state that piracy should be illegal then you must also state that any kind of sharing should be illegal due to the nature of sharing itself. Is sharing so inherently wrong that you should force people to abide by your own rules instead of letting them do what they want with something they purchased?

"Based on these figures, the IPI concludes that Movies Pirates (online and offline) are responsible for:

$5.5 billion in lost annual earnings among U.S workers
141,030 jobs lost
$837 million in lost annual tax revenue
$20.5 billion in lost annual output to all U.S. industries"

Source: http://torrentfreak.com/the-cost-of-movie-piracy-to-the-us/

In order for a quality copy of a movie to be released somewhere between 1 to 5 months have to pass. During this time bad quality "cams" will enter the scene which are rarely watched past the 5 minute mark. How can anyone state that "piracy costs the movie industry billions" when they fail to account for the above fact? If a pirate waited so long for a proper release to happen then do you actually believed that the pirate would have payed 8 bucks to see that movie during its original run? You might argue that he would have bought the DVD but this makes no sense since if that pirate wanted to see that movie he wouldn't have waited so long for a proper release. During the original run people that wanted to see a certain movie saw it. What I'm trying to say is that these studies are full of crap and to base your anti-piracy argument on them is moronic.

I mean for fucks sake, nowadays ANY kind of revenew loss is blamed on piracy. If a game did badly or if high profile movie did somewhat bad at the box office SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE will state that the reason the movie did so poorly was due to piracy. It's like the new excuse for doing poorly when it comes to sales.


Here's a blog talking about rebutting the study:
http://neuron2neuron.blogspot.com/2006/06/uk-copyright-lobby-discredits-mpaa.html

 

[burningdragoon]

The problem with that comparison is that food is a necessity and games are a luxury. But if you were to take your generous act of giving away free food, and purposely set up shop right next to say, someone who was selling food as a way to make a living, then it would be kind of "wrong" yes. But that's not what you were saying anyway, just trying to give a (bad) example as how giving away apples would be "wrong".

I was attempting to say how if you state that piracy should be illegal then you must also state that any kind of sharing should be illegal due to the nature of sharing itself. Is sharing so inherently wrong that you should force people to abide by your own rules instead of letting them do what they want with something they purchased?

You may have gotten an answer you were looking for by now, but let me try to answer it in an acceptable way. No, sharing is not inherently wrong. In fact, I would say it is inherently a good thing. However, deciding if a particular instance of sharing is right or wrong is about context. It's not fair or correct (opinions of course) to base feelings of software piracy on the general concept of sharing.

It's pretty much impossible to decide if piracy is in fact morally wrong. It is very much a fact that pirating a game is acquiring something you were supposed to pay for. So in terms of the law, yes it is wrong. Whether or not it should be illegal, I don't know. I actually am in the boat that once you purchase a game (or music, etc) then you should be able to do what you want with it, which makes me a little bit (a lot bit?) of a hypocrite. I am lucky enough to be rather fortunate with my financial situation, so I like to share my fortune with people. I will send music I really like to my friends and will let my friends borrow my games and dvds. That's where I personally draw the line, with my friends. I care about them, and want them to be able to experience the same pleasures that I can. Is doing that wrong? I don't think so, but it might be "technically".

I don't think it is "right" to pirate, but I can understand there are probably some people who partake in some aspect of piracy who aren't exactly "wrong" either. I doubt (opinion) the people that fall into that category are the majority of pirates though.

 

[Geekosaurus]

Your argument is that it is illegal, and if that's all that you've got, this isn't much of a discussion.

Its a six page discussion. No, the legality of piracy is not my only argument. Give the rest of the thread a read, I'm sure there's plenty of points I've put forward that you'd like to disagree with. However, legality is a pretty major point.

 

[lior13]

even the musicans still earn plenty of money thanks to tours etc.

muicans dont earn plenty of money
most muicans are broke
you know how lil money you get for a tour not plenty that for sure get your head out of your ass

You want to play like that ey?
Didn't I say that I buy LP's? I support the musicans I like by buying their music.
and believe me, touring is a great way to earn money for any second class band.
along with all accessories that are sold they get a fair prosent deal. I know many people who
play in such bands, hell I have cooked for Gojira. and let me tell you, musicans live just fine by what they make, even with piracy.

edit: oh and if they're broke, they're not very good mucicans are they?
maybe they should get real and get a job.

can you say the same for jazz mucicans
i dont belive you can
and did you know that charlie parker was broke and hes one of the best mucicans that ever lived
if a mucicans is broke it dosent mean hes a bad mucican

 

[Socius]

even the musicans still earn plenty of money thanks to tours etc.

muicans dont earn plenty of money
most muicans are broke
you know how lil money you get for a tour not plenty that for sure get your head out of your ass

You want to play like that ey?
Didn't I say that I buy LP's? I support the musicans I like by buying their music.
and believe me, touring is a great way to earn money for any second class band.
along with all accessories that are sold they get a fair prosent deal. I know many people who
play in such bands, hell I have cooked for Gojira. and let me tell you, musicans live just fine by what they make, even with piracy.

edit: oh and if they're broke, they're not very good mucicans are they?
maybe they should get real and get a job.

can you say the same for jazz mucicans
i dont belive you can
and did you know that charlie parker was broke and hes one of the best mucicans that ever lived
if a mucicans is broke it dosent mean hes a bad mucican

I would like to refer you to my latest statement above^
They should go get a job. Jazz is very floating as a genre and because of that, very few manage to do it good.

 

[lior13]

even the musicans still earn plenty of money thanks to tours etc.

muicans dont earn plenty of money
most muicans are broke
you know how lil money you get for a tour not plenty that for sure get your head out of your ass

You want to play like that ey?
Didn't I say that I buy LP's? I support the musicans I like by buying their music.
and believe me, touring is a great way to earn money for any second class band.
along with all accessories that are sold they get a fair prosent deal. I know many people who
play in such bands, hell I have cooked for Gojira. and let me tell you, musicans live just fine by what they make, even with piracy.

edit: oh and if they're broke, they're not very good mucicans are they?
maybe they should get real and get a job.

can you say the same for jazz mucicans
i dont belive you can
and did you know that charlie parker was broke and hes one of the best mucicans that ever lived
if a mucicans is broke it dosent mean hes a bad mucican

I would like to refer you to my latest statement above^
They should go get a job. Jazz is very floating as a genre and because of that, very few manage to do it good.

look man a alot of popele mange to do it good even great(but not as great as me)
its just that jazz is not as poplare as craper music sorry smpler music like rock or pop

 

[Socius]

even the musicans still earn plenty of money thanks to tours etc.

muicans dont earn plenty of money
most muicans are broke
you know how lil money you get for a tour not plenty that for sure get your head out of your ass

You want to play like that ey?
Didn't I say that I buy LP's? I support the musicans I like by buying their music.
and believe me, touring is a great way to earn money for any second class band.
along with all accessories that are sold they get a fair prosent deal. I know many people who
play in such bands, hell I have cooked for Gojira. and let me tell you, musicans live just fine by what they make, even with piracy.

edit: oh and if they're broke, they're not very good mucicans are they?
maybe they should get real and get a job.

can you say the same for jazz mucicans
i dont belive you can
and did you know that charlie parker was broke and hes one of the best mucicans that ever lived
if a mucicans is broke it dosent mean hes a bad mucican

I would like to refer you to my latest statement above^
They should go get a job. Jazz is very floating as a genre and because of that, very few manage to do it good.

look man a alot of popele mange to do it good even great(but not as great as me)
its just that jazz is not as poplare as craper music sorry smpler music like rock or pop

Pop is crap, I agree mate. rock however I can live with, and when all comes to all Metal is the best music there is if you look at it technically. the music require far more skill than most other genres. But as said, Jazz can be pretty awesome as well.

 

[Socius]

doublepost, my bad.

 

[lior13]

even the musicans still earn plenty of money thanks to tours etc.

muicans dont earn plenty of money
most muicans are broke
you know how lil money you get for a tour not plenty that for sure get your head out of your ass

You want to play like that ey?
Didn't I say that I buy LP's? I support the musicans I like by buying their music.
and believe me, touring is a great way to earn money for any second class band.
along with all accessories that are sold they get a fair prosent deal. I know many people who
play in such bands, hell I have cooked for Gojira. and let me tell you, musicans live just fine by what they make, even with piracy.

edit: oh and if they're broke, they're not very good mucicans are they?
maybe they should get real and get a job.

can you say the same for jazz mucicans
i dont belive you can
and did you know that charlie parker was broke and hes one of the best mucicans that ever lived
if a mucicans is broke it dosent mean hes a bad mucican

I would like to refer you to my latest statement above^
They should go get a job. Jazz is very floating as a genre and because of that, very few manage to do it good.

look man a alot of popele mange to do it good even great(but not as great as me)
its just that jazz is not as poplare as craper music sorry smpler music like rock or pop

Pop is crap, I agree mate. rock however I can live with, and when all comes to all Metal is the best music there is if you look at it technically. the music require far more skill than most other genres. But as said, Jazz can be pretty awesome as well.

the skill and the knowlg you need in oudr to play metal is a joke camperd to jazz Especially in the rhythm sction
and if you think that playing fast means that you got more skill(it dosnt)you sould check out donna lee which is ten times harder to play then any metal song is
playing fast is esay playing good is hard
most jazz musicans can do both unlike metal "musicns" who cant if you lisen closly too
iron maiden you can clerely hear that they dont have good rhythm they slip out of the rhythm a cuple of times in most of there songs now on the other hand if you lisen to any song of jaco pastorius or whater report they never lose the rhythm and dont get me starded on solos

 

[Socius]

even the musicans still earn plenty of money thanks to tours etc.

muicans dont earn plenty of money
most muicans are broke
you know how lil money you get for a tour not plenty that for sure get your head out of your ass

You want to play like that ey?
Didn't I say that I buy LP's? I support the musicans I like by buying their music.
and believe me, touring is a great way to earn money for any second class band.
along with all accessories that are sold they get a fair prosent deal. I know many people who
play in such bands, hell I have cooked for Gojira. and let me tell you, musicans live just fine by what they make, even with piracy.

edit: oh and if they're broke, they're not very good mucicans are they?
maybe they should get real and get a job.

can you say the same for jazz mucicans
i dont belive you can
and did you know that charlie parker was broke and hes one of the best mucicans that ever lived
if a mucicans is broke it dosent mean hes a bad mucican

I would like to refer you to my latest statement above^
They should go get a job. Jazz is very floating as a genre and because of that, very few manage to do it good.

look man a alot of popele mange to do it good even great(but not as great as me)
its just that jazz is not as poplare as craper music sorry smpler music like rock or pop

Pop is crap, I agree mate. rock however I can live with, and when all comes to all Metal is the best music there is if you look at it technically. the music require far more skill than most other genres. But as said, Jazz can be pretty awesome as well.

the skill and the knowlg you need in oudr to play metal is a joke camperd to jazz Especially in the rhythm sction
and if you think that playing fast means that you got more skill(it dosnt)you sould check out donna lee which is ten times harder to play then any metal song is
playing fast is esay playing good is hard
most jazz musicans can do both unlike metal "musicns" who cant if you lisen closly too
iron maiden you can clerely hear that they dont have good rhythm they slip out of the rhythm a cuple of times in most of there songs now on the other hand if you lisen to any song of jaco pastorius or whater report they never lose the rhythm and dont get me starded on solos

If that what you like to believe just keep dreaming. I won't wake you up!

but just in case Ill itroduce you to metal at it's best, you could say it's a little piece of heaven...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVYBKR-saj4

 

[lior13]

even the musicans still earn plenty of money thanks to tours etc.

muicans dont earn plenty of money
most muicans are broke
you know how lil money you get for a tour not plenty that for sure get your head out of your ass

You want to play like that ey?
Didn't I say that I buy LP's? I support the musicans I like by buying their music.
and believe me, touring is a great way to earn money for any second class band.
along with all accessories that are sold they get a fair prosent deal. I know many people who
play in such bands, hell I have cooked for Gojira. and let me tell you, musicans live just fine by what they make, even with piracy.

edit: oh and if they're broke, they're not very good mucicans are they?
maybe they should get real and get a job.

can you say the same for jazz mucicans
i dont belive you can
and did you know that charlie parker was broke and hes one of the best mucicans that ever lived
if a mucicans is broke it dosent mean hes a bad mucican

I would like to refer you to my latest statement above^
They should go get a job. Jazz is very floating as a genre and because of that, very few manage to do it good.

look man a alot of popele mange to do it good even great(but not as great as me)
its just that jazz is not as poplare as craper music sorry smpler music like rock or pop

Pop is crap, I agree mate. rock however I can live with, and when all comes to all Metal is the best music there is if you look at it technically. the music require far more skill than most other genres. But as said, Jazz can be pretty awesome as well.

the skill and the knowlg you need in oudr to play metal is a joke camperd to jazz Especially in the rhythm sction
and if you think that playing fast means that you got more skill(it dosnt)you sould check out donna lee which is ten times harder to play then any metal song is
playing fast is esay playing good is hard
most jazz musicans can do both unlike metal "musicns" who cant if you lisen closly too
iron maiden you can clerely hear that they dont have good rhythm they slip out of the rhythm a cuple of times in most of there songs now on the other hand if you lisen to any song of jaco pastorius or whater report they never lose the rhythm and dont get me starded on solos

If that what you like to believe just keep dreaming. I won't wake you up!

but just in case Ill itroduce you to metal at it's best, you could say it's a little piece of heaven...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVYBKR-saj4

i hate Avenged Sevenfold there crap comperd to black sabbath



et: and im not dreaming you are do you play any insturmet any way i play bass trumpt and a lil bit of piano did you ever studi music
and i think i know way you beleve that metal musicins are beter than jazz
its becuse of distorstoin it makes any thing sound much more harder then it relly is
if you lisen to any of Avenged Sevenfold solos whit out the distortion you would think its relly esey to play it



et: oh and Avenged Sevenfold sould grow the %^&$ up come on there just a bunch of immture posesrs

 

[Socius]

even the musicans still earn plenty of money thanks to tours etc.

muicans dont earn plenty of money
most muicans are broke
you know how lil money you get for a tour not plenty that for sure get your head out of your ass

You want to play like that ey?
Didn't I say that I buy LP's? I support the musicans I like by buying their music.
and believe me, touring is a great way to earn money for any second class band.
along with all accessories that are sold they get a fair prosent deal. I know many people who
play in such bands, hell I have cooked for Gojira. and let me tell you, musicans live just fine by what they make, even with piracy.

edit: oh and if they're broke, they're not very good mucicans are they?
maybe they should get real and get a job.

can you say the same for jazz mucicans
i dont belive you can
and did you know that charlie parker was broke and hes one of the best mucicans that ever lived
if a mucicans is broke it dosent mean hes a bad mucican

I would like to refer you to my latest statement above^
They should go get a job. Jazz is very floating as a genre and because of that, very few manage to do it good.

look man a alot of popele mange to do it good even great(but not as great as me)
its just that jazz is not as poplare as craper music sorry smpler music like rock or pop

Pop is crap, I agree mate. rock however I can live with, and when all comes to all Metal is the best music there is if you look at it technically. the music require far more skill than most other genres. But as said, Jazz can be pretty awesome as well.

the skill and the knowlg you need in oudr to play metal is a joke camperd to jazz Especially in the rhythm sction
and if you think that playing fast means that you got more skill(it dosnt)you sould check out donna lee which is ten times harder to play then any metal song is
playing fast is esay playing good is hard
most jazz musicans can do both unlike metal "musicns" who cant if you lisen closly too
iron maiden you can clerely hear that they dont have good rhythm they slip out of the rhythm a cuple of times in most of there songs now on the other hand if you lisen to any song of jaco pastorius or whater report they never lose the rhythm and dont get me starded on solos

If that what you like to believe just keep dreaming. I won't wake you up!

but just in case Ill itroduce you to metal at it's best, you could say it's a little piece of heaven...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVYBKR-saj4

i hate Avenged Sevenfold there crap comperd to black sabbath



et: and im not dreaming you are do you play any insturmet any way i play bass trumpt and a lil bit of piano did you ever studi music
and i think i know way you beleve that metal musicins are beter than jazz
its becuse of distorstoin it makes any thing sound much more harder then it relly is
if you lisen to any of Avenged Sevenfold solos whit out the distortion you would think its relly esey to play it



et: oh and Avenged Sevenfold sould grow the %^&$ up come on there just a bunch of immture posesrs

Imature? me? sir you started flamming me.
While I enjoy avenged sevenfold and the works of Jimmy "the Rev" Sullivan in particular I dare say I share your thought about Black sabbath being superior to them. the Dio years of course. personally I play the bass and the Drums. I sing a little and care very much for the technicallity behind music!

I haven't said anything bad about jazz now have I? I don't only listen to metal you know.
I have tried to reason with you, more or less, and it's quite obvious that there is no gain ion this conversation for either of us is there? Please start actibng a little more mature yourself before shouting to others.