Piracy, Not Consoles, Killed the PC Exclusive

[Rastien]

I'm sorry but i dislike the fictional figures drawn from the fact they got pirated... age old argument etc etc but come on not all people who pirate games can be counted as lost sales. The statistics drawn assume everyone who pirated the game would have bought it which is simply not true.

 

[Laxman9292]

Angry PC gamer here to say that a pirated game is not the equivalent of a lost sale.

I wasn't going to get in anyways so it's fine that I get it for free... it still can cripple a studio as evidenced here.

Super psyched for this game though. Now to get some more money to buy it.

 

[Treblaine]

Angry PC gamer here to say that a pirated game is not the equivalent of a lost sale.

I wasn't going to get in anyways so it's fine that I get it for free... it still can cripple a studio as evidenced here.

I don't know, Piracy didn't cause the 77% metascore rating that Titan Quest got which can't have helped its sales. Regardless of how accurate metascore actually is, it IS representative of actual review scores which DO influence people.

It was their fist game, they went over budget and it got bad press (possibly because it wasn't very good). Piracy may have been a factor but it certainly wasn't the only factor.

 

[Doom-Slayer]

Angry PC gamer here to say that a pirated game is not the equivalent of a lost sale.

Yeah, it's a product being used that wasn't paid for.

True but there is a good chance it wouldn't have been purchased in the first place.

Games are a privilage, not a right. Just because you cant afford it or would never have payed for it(which 99% of the time is bullshit) does not give you the right to gain enjoyment from something for free that people put potentially years of their lives into.

OT: Tell that to the X series. Games like X:Terran Conflict have done great on PC, so much so that they are releasing a new one, X:Rebirth which is also PC exclusive.

 

[JackyG]

Well they say that the Witcher 2 was pirated as much as it was paid for. I'm fairly confident that a few of the people that pirated it either bought it later or used it as a demo.

Here's the sad and unavoidable truth though! there's NO WAY of knowing that for sure! even with a survey, people would just lie.
As a Publisher, what are you to do? Because frankly you never really know.

 

[LiquidSolstice]

17 games in 13 years. Pretty good for one studio.

"The only games on those list that they've actually made themselves are the first two"

Incorrect, all of those are developed by people employed in and integrated with Valve. If you are employed by valve and you make a game for them... that makes it a Valve game. Without any ambiguity. It's a blatant falsehood to state otherwise.

Valve don't steal ideas from modders THEY HIRE THE MODDERS! That is the RIGHT THING TO DO! Hire the talent and employ their good ideas into a game more refined that would be reasonably practical as a mod made in spare time distributed for free.

Activision did the same thing, they hired the developers who made Medal of Honor: Allied Assault, who would go on to form Infinity Ward and make the Call of Duty series. No one objected to Activision doing that. They objected to other things activision did, but not that.

It seems your strategy when presented with any kind of inconvenient truth is to simply call it a "blatant falsehood". I'm done arguing with you, you just refuse to see Valve for what they are (which you can see at the same time as loving their games, it's not an either-or thing). I'm not saying Valve is bad, I'm just pointing out a well-known fact about their lineup, and you're taking it as though I've just stabbed your children and then took a dump on their dead bodies.

I get it, Valve is a gaming God to you. That's awesome, but every single time someone tries to point out to you the obvious, you always have an excuse ("They're using the same engine, so what" , "they charge WAY less" , "they don't STEAL IDEAS FROM MODDERS", "their games are unique" etc etc).

"It seems your strategy when presented with any kind of inconvenient truth blatant falsehood is to simply call it a "blatant falsehood"."

Fixed.

I have proven what you have said is false. You ignore that proof and continue to assert your baseless untruth. Truth is a matter of evidence, not a matter of badgering people repeating your assertions till accepted.

And I never said nor indicated Valve was "perfect", you saying that I do is both inaccurate and irrelevant personal attack that dodges the objective refutation. Your claims of Valve games being indistinct remain untrue and I proved that without subjectivity. That is, it doesn't matter what my stance is, my argument stands on its own. YOUR assertion is entirely based on your word being worth more than facts, or worse, your word alone is fact.

To reiterate:
-HL2: futuristic fantasy-realism action-adventure First person shooter
-Team Fortress 2: Class-based, objective centred competitive-teams multiplayer retro-abstract-aubsurdist FPS on closed maps
-Left 4 Dead: gritty co-op zombie killing FPS through short campaigns with special-character counter-op.
-Portal: puzzle first-person game using space bending devices in test complex with homicidal AI program that has total control

Your game-engine logic is also flawed as you don't seem to realise how many different, varied and distinct games can use the same game engine, like for example the Unreal Engine 3:
-Batman: Arkham Asylum (third-person predatory stealth + beat-em-up)
-Gears of War 3 (third person cover shooter)
-Borderlands (First person stylised shooter RPG-lite)
-Kinect Aventures (third person waggle game)
-Mirror's Edge (Bright/clean First Person Platformer/Parkour)
-Shadow Complex (2.5D side scrolling Metroidvania game)
-Tom Clancy's Endwar (RTS)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games#Unreal_Engine_3

You say all Valve games are indistinct just because they all use the Source engine... it is undeniable that by the same logic all these games are indistinct because they all use the Unreal 3 engine!

"you're taking it as though I've just stabbed your children and then took a dump on their dead bodies."

That's irrelevant and disgusting. Your posts are totally out of order.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/7.343687.13831889

"I don't like the way you see my games. Ergo. your thoughts are worthless. YOU JUST IGNANT!"

This just proves my point from my above post. Newsflash, buddy? I've played every single fucking Valve game, each time expecting something fresh, and only finding it within Portal. So you can shove your holier-than-thou attitude back up from whence the fuck it came, because I'm getting a little tired of your entire point consisting of you belittling anyone who does not think Valve is amazing and godly and unique and awesome.

I'm not belittling anyone, you're the one hurling insults and referencing scatological infanticide.

I call you ignorant because you are, not as an insult. You really do seem to be ignorant of game design.

You post made-up quotes from me in attempt at a personal attack. I use your ACTUAL QUOTES to demonstrate how flawed your logic is something self-evident.

Playing Valve games does not mean you can post ignorance and untruths about them without being challenged. If you don't like intellectual challenge then just ignore me, when you see my replies in your feed, just delete them if you don't like them, but don't think you can censor me. I'm not PM'ing you, I'm posting for the wider forum discussion. And I'm not the only one, others have challenged you as well.

If it is your OPINION that all valve games are indistinct, well that's you're own weird opinion but it doesn't really add any discussion value. It is certainly not fact nor indicative of anything.

So much rationalization over an indisputable fact; they all use the same engine, and although there was potential for them to be dramatically different, they aren't.

Pathetic. You can't deny that all the Source/Half-Life engine games are the same, so you bring Unreal 3 into the mix? Hmmm, not liking my stance, creating an alternate stance (that I think all game engines are the same), and then attacking that instead?

What's that called again? It has something to do with straw...

No, Unreal 3 is used to make genuinely different games, not rehashes that are sold for cheap to a crowd that will gladly eat anything that their godly dev puts on their plates (even if it was last night's leftovers with a bit of cheese sprinkled on).

Nothing you've said has changed anything I've said, so while you keep repeating "blatant falsehood" like a broken record while simultaneously using a completely different engine and set of games as a comparison, I'll just be sitting here laughing at you.

Also, I'm not a coward. I never have and never will ask anyone to "PM me" to finish a discussion, don't put words in my mouth. So far you're the only one who's trying to defend Valve, and in fact, someone else tried to explain to you the same thing that I did.

You have ZERO facts in your post (except what seems to be the tagline that Steam advertises said game with), and your stance just consists of nothing more than you getting offended that someone isn't praising Valve.

Let's get this out there. Valve games are not unique (with Portal being the exception). They're all FPSes with small gimmicks added to them and they're all built on the same engine. They feel the same, you're just shooting at something different in each one.

 

[LiquidSolstice]

You'll have to forgive me if I sound short at all in this post (I'm not sure if I do), while having this civil discussion with you, I'm also arguing with someone who is incredibly stubborn and loyal to their dev of choice, and it's getting more and more irrational as we go.

I was referring to people talking about the pirating of the 'Humble Bundle'. Sorry, I should have been more specific. I don't like to talk about or even hear about how many pirate because of X reason because it is all theoretical based of unknown variables or guess work. My point was, people pirate for various reasons. Convenience, ease and accessibility can be improved.

I can certainly agree with that.

It happens frequently enough for it to be an issue and it is bloody annoying when it happens. People tend to make a lot of noise when they have paid money for a product that does not work (arguably faulty). There is no return policies for games. I would happily shut up about DRM forever if I could take my game back or contact my digital distribution vendor and say 'this game isn't working for me, I wont my money back'... like you can with everything else you spend money on.

I suppose I have to disagree with you on this. The ratio of number of sales vs amount of complaining I hear (which granted, I can't hear it all) seems to be in favor of sales, and I say this because I do not believe gamers would have continued loyalty to a publisher of the DRM if it consistently failed to work properly. I stand by my original stance; those who vocalize their issues with DRM, and furthermore, those who actually have issues with DRM are even less (because people like to ***** about things that don't affect them)

Fair enough, except for the 'hell of a lot' easier part. It will be a bit easier. I don't see how piracy being easy compared to piracy being very easy will make much if any difference.
Edit: DRM makes things slighly more difficult for the paying customer while DRM free makes it slightly easyer for the pirater. I like the option that has the paying customer happy.

Well, I made that statement with the following assumption based off your original list (at least, I think it was you) of steps to pirate a game. If the game was simply distributed as a setup file, that needed nothing more than the usual "Location" and "Pick which components to install" dialogs, it would certainly be easier than have to crack a game. Also, the update process would probably be equally easier, because rather than wait for the pirated update to come out, you could do it officially. There is no downside for a pirate, especially when the pirate realizes all of this is "free".

 

[LiquidSolstice]

If It is your my OPINION that all valve games are indistinct, well that's you're my own weird opinion but and it doesn't really add any discussion value. It is certainly not fact nor indicative of anything.

Fixed your quote to show the complete irony.

 

[Hisher]

I am sorry I can't respond to each and everyone of you who replied to me earlier but that is just to much work.

You all seem to think I am somehow defending piracy and am also a pirate just because I am stating a fact. Some pirated games are equal to a lost sale but not 100% and it is certainly not what is "killing" the pc exclusive.

Yes it is entirely possible for people to not be interested in a game and pirate it. This is how steam sales work something is a marked price and then drops and suddenly at $5 you look at that game and buy it on an impulse only in this case the sale price is free.

Now I urge you all to step off your high horse for a moment and actually think. If somebody sees a box labeled free shit they might just take it and it might not have been something they ever wanted but it was free so they took it.

 

[Atmos Duality]

If somebody sees a box labeled free shit they might just take it and it might not have been something they ever wanted but it was free so they took it.

Actually, in economics, we have a concept for that called "Tragedy of the Commons".
It's a theory that explains the marginal thinking for uncontrolled resources and public goods, though it can also be used for any goods that behave like the above ("Freeloaders" for public goods are similar in practice to pirates, though not quite the same).

 

[LiquidSolstice]

Now I urge you all to step off your high horse for a moment and actually think. If somebody sees a box labeled free shit they might just take it and it might not have been something they ever wanted but it was free so they took it.

The box isn't labeled "free". Some cheap kid came over to it with a sharpie and wrote "free" on it.

 

[Treblaine]

If It is your my OPINION that all valve games are indistinct, well that's you're my own weird opinion but and it doesn't really add any discussion value. It is certainly not fact nor indicative of anything.

Fixed your quote to show the complete irony.

The irony is with YOUR expectations, not mine.

I have shown OBJECTIVELY how distinct they are:

-Half life 2: Single-player story driven FPS adventure through a multi-hour contiguous campaign fighting futuristic SWAT forces, giant alien insects and slow tough zombies, set in a future earth overtaken by an alien power.

-Left 4 Dead: online co-op (and counter-op) multiplayer game, playing through a series of short hour-long campaigns set in a present day zombie apocalypse shooting through thousands of fast moving zombiefied people as well as powerful mutations.

-Team Fortress 2: fantastical abstract retro-futuristic 1960's, team-based competitive multiplayer with 9 very distinct classes and varying weapons loadout fighting over objectives such as King-of-the-hill, capture the flag Intelligence, and payload escorting a bomb into the enemy base.

-Portal: no firearms or direct weapons, just a portal gun that can bend space, forced to solve puzzles in a test facility that a sadistic and all powerful artificial intelligence has taken over.

-Counterstrike: small competitive teams in modern day setting terrorist vs counterterrorist confrontation, to rescue hostages or plant bomb or till the entire enemy team is eliminated. Each round earns money that allows more and better weapons and equipment to be bought for each subsequent round.

-Alien Swarm: top-down sci-fi shooter, teams advance through futuristic installations against waves of insect like aliens

-Dota 2: top-down fantasy arena fighter, individuals fight with magic and medieval weaponry agaisnt other player controlled opponents.

These are not opinions. These are facts.

Name one GAMEPLAY aspect all Valve games have in common?

 

[Treblaine]

17 games in 13 years. Pretty good for one studio.

"The only games on those list that they've actually made themselves are the first two"

Incorrect, all of those are developed by people employed in and integrated with Valve. If you are employed by valve and you make a game for them... that makes it a Valve game. Without any ambiguity. It's a blatant falsehood to state otherwise.

Valve don't steal ideas from modders THEY HIRE THE MODDERS! That is the RIGHT THING TO DO! Hire the talent and employ their good ideas into a game more refined that would be reasonably practical as a mod made in spare time distributed for free.

Activision did the same thing, they hired the developers who made Medal of Honor: Allied Assault, who would go on to form Infinity Ward and make the Call of Duty series. No one objected to Activision doing that. They objected to other things activision did, but not that.

It seems your strategy when presented with any kind of inconvenient truth is to simply call it a "blatant falsehood". I'm done arguing with you, you just refuse to see Valve for what they are (which you can see at the same time as loving their games, it's not an either-or thing). I'm not saying Valve is bad, I'm just pointing out a well-known fact about their lineup, and you're taking it as though I've just stabbed your children and then took a dump on their dead bodies.

I get it, Valve is a gaming God to you. That's awesome, but every single time someone tries to point out to you the obvious, you always have an excuse ("They're using the same engine, so what" , "they charge WAY less" , "they don't STEAL IDEAS FROM MODDERS", "their games are unique" etc etc).

"It seems your strategy when presented with any kind of inconvenient truth blatant falsehood is to simply call it a "blatant falsehood"."

Fixed.

I have proven what you have said is false. You ignore that proof and continue to assert your baseless untruth. Truth is a matter of evidence, not a matter of badgering people repeating your assertions till accepted.

And I never said nor indicated Valve was "perfect", you saying that I do is both inaccurate and irrelevant personal attack that dodges the objective refutation. Your claims of Valve games being indistinct remain untrue and I proved that without subjectivity. That is, it doesn't matter what my stance is, my argument stands on its own. YOUR assertion is entirely based on your word being worth more than facts, or worse, your word alone is fact.

To reiterate:
-HL2: futuristic fantasy-realism action-adventure First person shooter
-Team Fortress 2: Class-based, objective centred competitive-teams multiplayer retro-abstract-aubsurdist FPS on closed maps
-Left 4 Dead: gritty co-op zombie killing FPS through short campaigns with special-character counter-op.
-Portal: puzzle first-person game using space bending devices in test complex with homicidal AI program that has total control

Your game-engine logic is also flawed as you don't seem to realise how many different, varied and distinct games can use the same game engine, like for example the Unreal Engine 3:
-Batman: Arkham Asylum (third-person predatory stealth + beat-em-up)
-Gears of War 3 (third person cover shooter)
-Borderlands (First person stylised shooter RPG-lite)
-Kinect Aventures (third person waggle game)
-Mirror's Edge (Bright/clean First Person Platformer/Parkour)
-Shadow Complex (2.5D side scrolling Metroidvania game)
-Tom Clancy's Endwar (RTS)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games#Unreal_Engine_3

You say all Valve games are indistinct just because they all use the Source engine... it is undeniable that by the same logic all these games are indistinct because they all use the Unreal 3 engine!

"you're taking it as though I've just stabbed your children and then took a dump on their dead bodies."

That's irrelevant and disgusting. Your posts are totally out of order.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/7.343687.13831889

"I don't like the way you see my games. Ergo. your thoughts are worthless. YOU JUST IGNANT!"

This just proves my point from my above post. Newsflash, buddy? I've played every single fucking Valve game, each time expecting something fresh, and only finding it within Portal. So you can shove your holier-than-thou attitude back up from whence the fuck it came, because I'm getting a little tired of your entire point consisting of you belittling anyone who does not think Valve is amazing and godly and unique and awesome.

I'm not belittling anyone, you're the one hurling insults and referencing scatological infanticide.

I call you ignorant because you are, not as an insult. You really do seem to be ignorant of game design.

You post made-up quotes from me in attempt at a personal attack. I use your ACTUAL QUOTES to demonstrate how flawed your logic is something self-evident.

Playing Valve games does not mean you can post ignorance and untruths about them without being challenged. If you don't like intellectual challenge then just ignore me, when you see my replies in your feed, just delete them if you don't like them, but don't think you can censor me. I'm not PM'ing you, I'm posting for the wider forum discussion. And I'm not the only one, others have challenged you as well.

If it is your OPINION that all valve games are indistinct, well that's you're own weird opinion but it doesn't really add any discussion value. It is certainly not fact nor indicative of anything.

So much rationalization over an indisputable fact; they all use the same engine, and although there was potential for them to be dramatically different, they aren't.

Pathetic. You can't deny that all the Source/Half-Life engine games are the same, so you bring Unreal 3 into the mix? Hmmm, not liking my stance, creating an alternate stance (that I think all game engines are the same), and then attacking that instead?

What's that called again? It has something to do with straw...

No, Unreal 3 is used to make genuinely different games, not rehashes that are sold for cheap to a crowd that will gladly eat anything that their godly dev puts on their plates (even if it was last night's leftovers with a bit of cheese sprinkled on).

Nothing you've said has changed anything I've said, so while you keep repeating "blatant falsehood" like a broken record while simultaneously using a completely different engine and set of games as a comparison, I'll just be sitting here laughing at you.

Also, I'm not a coward. I never have and never will ask anyone to "PM me" to finish a discussion, don't put words in my mouth. So far you're the only one who's trying to defend Valve, and in fact, someone else tried to explain to you the same thing that I did.

You have ZERO facts in your post (except what seems to be the tagline that Steam advertises said game with), and your stance just consists of nothing more than you getting offended that someone isn't praising Valve.

Let's get this out there. Valve games are not unique (with Portal being the exception). They're all FPSes with small gimmicks added to them and they're all built on the same engine. They feel the same, you're just shooting at something different in each one.

"You have ZERO facts in your post"

Not true. I have presented plenty of facts, that are relevant too.
.

"I never have and never will ask anyone to "PM me" to finish a discussion, don't put words in my mouth."

I never did. Read what I said properly.
.

"an indisputable fact; they all use the same engine"

I'm not disputing that they use the same engine!

I dispute that using-the-same-engine means the games are indistinct! I bring in Unreal 3 as a perfect example of how your reasoning is wrong, that "same engine = same game" as all those VERY DISTINCT games use the same Unreal 3 engine.

You don't seem to understand what Rationalization, Straw man nor Pathetic means... or you are deliberately misusing them.

Let's get this out there. Valve games ARE unique (with Portal being the most unique). Their FPS's with hugely different playstyles, tone, structure and challenge across single-player, co-op, and multiplayer. All built on a highly Source engine, highly modified for each game. They feel totally different, with a completely different shooting or fighting challenge. They have branched out of FPS style many times and successfully. I dare you to find a single developer that has more varied game styles in the games they put out. Not a publisher (who can commission a dozen outside studios) a single developer.

Look, lets make this simple:

Tell me in what WAYS all of Valve's games are indistinct from Half Life 2?

Don't just say "the shooting is the same", describe how shooting in Valve games is more similar to each other THAN ANY OTHER GAME.

Yes, describe how the shooting in Left 4 Dead is more similar to Half Life 2, that shooting in L4D is similar to FEAR.

 

[AhumbleKnight]

You'll have to forgive me if I sound short at all in this post (I'm not sure if I do), while having this civil discussion with you, I'm also arguing with someone who is incredibly stubborn and loyal to their dev of choice, and it's getting more and more irrational as we go.

Thats fine. I have been watching your argument with interest but I have refrained from getting involved with it because it is oh so off topic. *struggles to contain opinion*

It happens frequently enough for it to be an issue and it is bloody annoying when it happens. People tend to make a lot of noise when they have paid money for a product that does not work (arguably faulty). There is no return policies for games. I would happily shut up about DRM forever if I could take my game back or contact my digital distribution vendor and say 'this game isn't working for me, I wont my money back'... like you can with everything else you spend money on.

I suppose I have to disagree with you on this. The ratio of number of sales vs amount of complaining I hear (which granted, I can't hear it all) seems to be in favour of sales, and I say this because I do not believe gamers would have continued loyalty to a publisher of the DRM if it consistently failed to work properly. I stand by my original stance; those who vocalise their issues with DRM, and furthermore, those who actually have issues with DRM are even less (because people like to ***** about things that don't affect them)

My comment was less about how much complaining there is, because this is the internet and it has more bitching that it has lol catz, and more about the viability of legitimate complaints about DRM being a disadvantage to the customer. In my opinion, a company should be concerned about any percentage of its customers having problems with their product, regardless of how small a percentage that my be. Especial when it's not the product, but the product protection. I dislike using shitty metaphors but hey, here goes... it would be like a electronics company selling TV's that had a lock on the product to stop thieves using it, except sometimes the key that the customer received didn't work with their lock, so the customer has to ass about contacting the supplier trying to get a key that does work (sometimes being called a thief in the process).

Fair enough, except for the 'hell of a lot' easier part. It will be a bit easier. I don't see how piracy being easy compared to piracy being very easy will make much if any difference.
Edit: DRM makes things slightly more difficult for the paying customer while DRM free makes it slightly easier for the pirater. I like the option that has the paying customer happy.

Well, I made that statement with the following assumption based off your original list (at least, I think it was you) of steps to pirate a game. If the game was simply distributed as a setup file, that needed nothing more than the usual "Location" and "Pick which components to install" dialogs, it would certainly be easier than have to crack a game. Also, the update process would probably be equally easier, because rather than wait for the pirated update to come out, you could do it officially. There is no downside for a pirate, especially when the pirate realizes all of this is "free".

Yes it was my list. Yep, fair enough assumption.
I stand by my point that 'they' should be trying to make things easyer for the customer, not harder for the pirate. Because harder for the pirate = harder for the customer as well.

 

[AhumbleKnight]

Again, I feel like pointing out that it is not PC exclusives that are on the decline as much as it is ALL exclusives on the decline. This is because the amount of games being sold cross platform are increasing. This is a great thing. We are also starting to see games being sold with licences for all platforms (ie. you buy the game once, and play it on every supported device). Next I hope we see games being networked across platforms. That would be awesome (but extremely difficult to do well). All this has nothing to do with piracy. Just good and bad games.

 

[LiquidSolstice]

17 games in 13 years. Pretty good for one studio.

"The only games on those list that they've actually made themselves are the first two"

Incorrect, all of those are developed by people employed in and integrated with Valve. If you are employed by valve and you make a game for them... that makes it a Valve game. Without any ambiguity. It's a blatant falsehood to state otherwise.

Valve don't steal ideas from modders THEY HIRE THE MODDERS! That is the RIGHT THING TO DO! Hire the talent and employ their good ideas into a game more refined that would be reasonably practical as a mod made in spare time distributed for free.

Activision did the same thing, they hired the developers who made Medal of Honor: Allied Assault, who would go on to form Infinity Ward and make the Call of Duty series. No one objected to Activision doing that. They objected to other things activision did, but not that.

It seems your strategy when presented with any kind of inconvenient truth is to simply call it a "blatant falsehood". I'm done arguing with you, you just refuse to see Valve for what they are (which you can see at the same time as loving their games, it's not an either-or thing). I'm not saying Valve is bad, I'm just pointing out a well-known fact about their lineup, and you're taking it as though I've just stabbed your children and then took a dump on their dead bodies.

I get it, Valve is a gaming God to you. That's awesome, but every single time someone tries to point out to you the obvious, you always have an excuse ("They're using the same engine, so what" , "they charge WAY less" , "they don't STEAL IDEAS FROM MODDERS", "their games are unique" etc etc).

"It seems your strategy when presented with any kind of inconvenient truth blatant falsehood is to simply call it a "blatant falsehood"."

Fixed.

I have proven what you have said is false. You ignore that proof and continue to assert your baseless untruth. Truth is a matter of evidence, not a matter of badgering people repeating your assertions till accepted.

And I never said nor indicated Valve was "perfect", you saying that I do is both inaccurate and irrelevant personal attack that dodges the objective refutation. Your claims of Valve games being indistinct remain untrue and I proved that without subjectivity. That is, it doesn't matter what my stance is, my argument stands on its own. YOUR assertion is entirely based on your word being worth more than facts, or worse, your word alone is fact.

To reiterate:
-HL2: futuristic fantasy-realism action-adventure First person shooter
-Team Fortress 2: Class-based, objective centred competitive-teams multiplayer retro-abstract-aubsurdist FPS on closed maps
-Left 4 Dead: gritty co-op zombie killing FPS through short campaigns with special-character counter-op.
-Portal: puzzle first-person game using space bending devices in test complex with homicidal AI program that has total control

Your game-engine logic is also flawed as you don't seem to realise how many different, varied and distinct games can use the same game engine, like for example the Unreal Engine 3:
-Batman: Arkham Asylum (third-person predatory stealth + beat-em-up)
-Gears of War 3 (third person cover shooter)
-Borderlands (First person stylised shooter RPG-lite)
-Kinect Aventures (third person waggle game)
-Mirror's Edge (Bright/clean First Person Platformer/Parkour)
-Shadow Complex (2.5D side scrolling Metroidvania game)
-Tom Clancy's Endwar (RTS)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games#Unreal_Engine_3

You say all Valve games are indistinct just because they all use the Source engine... it is undeniable that by the same logic all these games are indistinct because they all use the Unreal 3 engine!

"you're taking it as though I've just stabbed your children and then took a dump on their dead bodies."

That's irrelevant and disgusting. Your posts are totally out of order.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/7.343687.13831889

"I don't like the way you see my games. Ergo. your thoughts are worthless. YOU JUST IGNANT!"

This just proves my point from my above post. Newsflash, buddy? I've played every single fucking Valve game, each time expecting something fresh, and only finding it within Portal. So you can shove your holier-than-thou attitude back up from whence the fuck it came, because I'm getting a little tired of your entire point consisting of you belittling anyone who does not think Valve is amazing and godly and unique and awesome.

I'm not belittling anyone, you're the one hurling insults and referencing scatological infanticide.

I call you ignorant because you are, not as an insult. You really do seem to be ignorant of game design.

You post made-up quotes from me in attempt at a personal attack. I use your ACTUAL QUOTES to demonstrate how flawed your logic is something self-evident.

Playing Valve games does not mean you can post ignorance and untruths about them without being challenged. If you don't like intellectual challenge then just ignore me, when you see my replies in your feed, just delete them if you don't like them, but don't think you can censor me. I'm not PM'ing you, I'm posting for the wider forum discussion. And I'm not the only one, others have challenged you as well.

If it is your OPINION that all valve games are indistinct, well that's you're own weird opinion but it doesn't really add any discussion value. It is certainly not fact nor indicative of anything.

So much rationalization over an indisputable fact; they all use the same engine, and although there was potential for them to be dramatically different, they aren't.

Pathetic. You can't deny that all the Source/Half-Life engine games are the same, so you bring Unreal 3 into the mix? Hmmm, not liking my stance, creating an alternate stance (that I think all game engines are the same), and then attacking that instead?

What's that called again? It has something to do with straw...

No, Unreal 3 is used to make genuinely different games, not rehashes that are sold for cheap to a crowd that will gladly eat anything that their godly dev puts on their plates (even if it was last night's leftovers with a bit of cheese sprinkled on).

Nothing you've said has changed anything I've said, so while you keep repeating "blatant falsehood" like a broken record while simultaneously using a completely different engine and set of games as a comparison, I'll just be sitting here laughing at you.

Also, I'm not a coward. I never have and never will ask anyone to "PM me" to finish a discussion, don't put words in my mouth. So far you're the only one who's trying to defend Valve, and in fact, someone else tried to explain to you the same thing that I did.

You have ZERO facts in your post (except what seems to be the tagline that Steam advertises said game with), and your stance just consists of nothing more than you getting offended that someone isn't praising Valve.

Let's get this out there. Valve games are not unique (with Portal being the exception). They're all FPSes with small gimmicks added to them and they're all built on the same engine. They feel the same, you're just shooting at something different in each one.

"You have ZERO facts in your post"

Not true. I have presented plenty of facts, that are relevant too.
.

"I never have and never will ask anyone to "PM me" to finish a discussion, don't put words in my mouth."

I never did. Read what I said properly.
.

"an indisputable fact; they all use the same engine"

I'm not disputing that they use the same engine!

I dispute that using-the-same-engine means the games are indistinct! I bring in Unreal 3 as a perfect example of how your reasoning is wrong, that "same engine = same game" as all those VERY DISTINCT games use the same Unreal 3 engine.

You don't seem to understand what Rationalization, Straw man nor Pathetic means... or you are deliberately misusing them.

Let's get this out there. Valve games ARE unique (with Portal being the most unique). Their FPS's with hugely different playstyles, tone, structure and challenge across single-player, co-op, and multiplayer. All built on a highly Source engine, highly modified for each game. They feel totally different, with a completely different shooting or fighting challenge. They have branched out of FPS style many times and successfully. I dare you to find a single developer that has more varied game styles in the games they put out. Not a publisher (who can commission a dozen outside studios) a single developer.

Look, lets make this simple:

Tell me in what WAYS all of Valve's games are indistinct from Half Life 2?

Don't just say "the shooting is the same", describe how shooting in Valve games is more similar to each other THAN ANY OTHER GAME.

Yes, describe how the shooting in Left 4 Dead is more similar to Half Life 2, that shooting in L4D is similar to FEAR.

Your posts are nothing more than advertisements for Valve games based on what's obviously your loyalty to the dev. I'm actually done arguing with you. This is just circular reasoning. Each time you just try and get more granular about the differences in the games and I'm just going in the opposite direction.

Have fun playing Half Life.

Also, if you're going to put me on your ignore list, actually do it this time, kay? Cool.

 

[LiquidSolstice]

My comment was less about how much complaining there is, because this is the internet and it has more bitching that it has lol catz, and more about the viability of legitimate complaints about DRM being a disadvantage to the customer. In my opinion, a company should be concerned about any percentage of its customers having problems with their product, regardless of how small a percentage that my be. Especial when it's not the product, but the product protection. I dislike using shitty metaphors but hey, here goes... it would be like a electronics company selling TV's that had a lock on the product to stop thieves using it, except sometimes the key that the customer received didn't work with their lock, so the customer has to ass about contacting the supplier trying to get a key that does work (sometimes being called a thief in the process).

I can absolutely understand the indignity of DRM (as well as the inconvenience). I don't doubt that it's an issue, I guess in my eyes I feel the amount of successful installs outweigh the unsuccessful ones. Do I think DRM could be improved? Absolutely. At least, if nothing else, customer service should be based on some sort of proof of purchase that cannot be disputed to prevent headaches during support requests.

Yes it was my list. Yep, fair enough assumption.
I stand by my point that 'they' should be trying to make things easyer for the customer, not harder for the pirate. Because harder for the pirate = harder for the customer as well.

I agree with that sentiment, but surely you can also agree that it goes both ways; the easier it is for the consumer, the easier it is for the pirate. I suppose it just depends on your outlook of it all.

 

[Treblaine]

Your posts are nothing more than advertisements for Valve games based on what's obviously your loyalty to the dev. I'm actually done arguing with you. This is just circular reasoning. Each time you just try and get more granular about the differences in the games and I'm just going in the opposite direction.

Have fun playing Half Life.

Also, if you're going to put me on your ignore list, actually do it this time, kay? Cool.

-I do not remember saying I intend to put you on any ignore list
-I do not advertise for Valve nor anyone, my motivation is countering untruths
-I am not unduly loyal to any video game company.
-I have not been making granular if differentiations, I have presented facts of the large and fundamental differences

OK? What you've said about Valve is incorrect. And I've proven that you are wrong on this matter using facts.

I hope you can accept the facts of the matter and lets try to not make this personal.

 

[LiquidSolstice]

Your posts are nothing more than advertisements for Valve games based on what's obviously your loyalty to the dev. I'm actually done arguing with you. This is just circular reasoning. Each time you just try and get more granular about the differences in the games and I'm just going in the opposite direction.

Have fun playing Half Life.

Also, if you're going to put me on your ignore list, actually do it this time, kay? Cool.

-I do not remember saying I intend to put you on any ignore list
-I do not advertise for Valve nor anyone, my motivation is countering untruths
-I am not unduly loyal to any video game company.
-I have not been making granular if differentiations, I have presented facts of the large and fundamental differences

OK? What you've said about Valve is incorrect. And I've proven that you are wrong on this matter using facts.

I hope you can accept the facts of the matter and lets try to not make this personal.

As I said before, your posts about Valve games are just broken-record advertisements that appear to be taken from a combination of an undying love for the games (which I respect) and the tagline that is given to entice people into buying the games. Fundamentally, they look, feel, (and with the exception of portal) play the same; no amount of granular detail from you will change that. You are not countering untruths, and you have no "proven" anything. You are simply attempting to counter the only fact that has been stated during this entire conversation; With the exception of few, every single game Valve makes is a variation of HL or HL2. It's just what the facts are. It's not a huge problem, and it's nothing to be ashamed about (although you seem to be), but trying to deny it, rationalize it, compare it to other game engines, or anything else you've tried is just sad.

Like I said, I'm done talking to you about it. If you really feel the need to fit in another "last-word" post to satisfy your ego, so be it.