Piracy staying legal in Switzerland - "Pirates still contribute"
- Thread starter Levethian
- Start date
That's pretty cool, Switzerland is a very forward thinking kinda place...I like it!
By the way, I don't condone piracy but I do understand it's need and importance when dealing with bullshit DRM schemes like the douchebags at ubisoft keep cranking out. Fuck them, I love seeing their shit cracked!
By the way, I don't condone piracy but I do understand it's need and importance when dealing with bullshit DRM schemes like the douchebags at ubisoft keep cranking out. Fuck them, I love seeing their shit cracked!
Hmmm is it just me or does every pirate thread stink of hypocrisy? "Pirating is bad! OMG THIEF!!".. Ughh thinking of em greedy ass publishers make me sick.
The thing is this. Pirating is a crime, we all know that.. But we can't deny the fact that it has contributed a lot to the entertainment industry.
Contrary to what publishers are always crying about, 1 dl =/= 1 lost sale, it has been proven by research. Gamers pirate games out of curiosity (applicable to the people I know); and if they happened to like a game, they'll usually spread it through word of mouth; in other words, they help spread gaming 'awareness' in their area. Do you think piracy exists just to give middle fingers to every honest working merchants out there? Maybe, maybe not, but the way I see it, let's just say that piracy is essentially a UN relief service or a charitable organization.
Real pirates of the past pirate stuff for them to be able to sell it again. It's purely for their own profits. A software-pirating firm outweighs the mentality of own and leans more toward others; it's a form of sharing. And from what I've learned when I was 2
share    [shair] verb, shared, shar·ing.
verb (used with object)
-to divide and distribute in shares; apportion.
-to use, participate in, enjoy, receive, etc., jointly: The two chemists shared the Nobel prize.
I am not a die-hard advocate of piracy despite my defenses on it (heck it's not even an organized defense). People will be required to pay for services and products, it's basic capitalism, and I'm totally cool with it. Just NEVER deny piracy's contribution to the entertainment industry as a whole. Doing so makes you a fatass hypocrite.
TLDR: Pirates have awesome beards. Oh and yeah, go Switzerland!
The thing is this. Pirating is a crime, we all know that.. But we can't deny the fact that it has contributed a lot to the entertainment industry.
Contrary to what publishers are always crying about, 1 dl =/= 1 lost sale, it has been proven by research. Gamers pirate games out of curiosity (applicable to the people I know); and if they happened to like a game, they'll usually spread it through word of mouth; in other words, they help spread gaming 'awareness' in their area. Do you think piracy exists just to give middle fingers to every honest working merchants out there? Maybe, maybe not, but the way I see it, let's just say that piracy is essentially a UN relief service or a charitable organization.
Real pirates of the past pirate stuff for them to be able to sell it again. It's purely for their own profits. A software-pirating firm outweighs the mentality of own and leans more toward others; it's a form of sharing. And from what I've learned when I was 2
share    [shair] verb, shared, shar·ing.
verb (used with object)
-to divide and distribute in shares; apportion.
-to use, participate in, enjoy, receive, etc., jointly: The two chemists shared the Nobel prize.
I am not a die-hard advocate of piracy despite my defenses on it (heck it's not even an organized defense). People will be required to pay for services and products, it's basic capitalism, and I'm totally cool with it. Just NEVER deny piracy's contribution to the entertainment industry as a whole. Doing so makes you a fatass hypocrite.
TLDR: Pirates have awesome beards. Oh and yeah, go Switzerland!
HA! Take THAT established order!
Pretty much everything they said makes sense. I'm glad at least one country has realized there are only two things to do with Piracy. 1) Attempt to fight it, which will NEVER work and only serve to piss people off or, 2) Embrace it!
Now I have another reason to love the Swiss.
Pretty much everything they said makes sense. I'm glad at least one country has realized there are only two things to do with Piracy. 1) Attempt to fight it, which will NEVER work and only serve to piss people off or, 2) Embrace it!
Now I have another reason to love the Swiss.
This remains to be seen. Don't just declare this will happen. If this model the Swiss have come up with works, there will be no adverse effects.JoesshittyOs said:
Sure it makes sense. Moral conundrums aside, where i live - next to switzerland ^^ - it's absolutely legal for me to download whatever i want, as long as i don't publish things i don't have publishing rights for. I can also legally give that content to all my friends. And - sugar on top - i'm not legally required to be aware of the legal status of the source of my download.DRes82 said:
And yet, i spend quite a bit of my disposable income on entertainment product (mostly games and books, some concerts). I do it out of a very simple rationale: i want the creators of that content to be able to live off creating said content, and me buying content i like increases the chances that more like it will be created.
That said, i hate bad DRM with the fury of a billion suns. It's the #1 reason for me to not buy a product i'd normally be interested in.
That very much depends on the laws of the land. You'd be safer to say that "Pirating is wrong"nbamaniac said:
A victory for (the ironically named) common sense.
It's rare to see people in power using real research in law-making. The world needs more of this.
It's rare to see people in power using real research in law-making. The world needs more of this.
If I own a thing, and you are taking liberties with said thing without my permission, you are depriving me of my rights to my thing.Athinira said:
How is that not depriving? Or are you stating somehow that people don't own their own things? That sounds communist to me. Are you a communist?
Clearly you don't know what the word 'own' means, or what it means to 'own' something.FelixG said:
In the case of the copy, the individual who creates the copy does not own the copy. Thus, by distributing it, he is trafficing in shit he does not own. In the case of the used game salesman, he does, in fact, own that thing. He has perchased it, from someone who owns it. And thus, he is selling something he does own.
Selling stuff you do own: Right.
Selling stuff you don't own: Wrong.
At best, by distributing pirated goods, you are, in fact, engaging in the counterfeiting of property, and that is also wrong. Just because you can make a fake-rolex watch, no matter how good quality, doesn't mean you have the right to make a fake-rolex watch.
The two are not even close to analogous. Again, I ask: Do you actually believe that people should not have the rights to the things they own? If you want consumer rights regarding property, you have to acknowledge property rights. And when you create a copy illegally, you do not own that illegal copy. You cannot have it both ways. Do you want people to respect your ownership of things? Then you must respect other's ownership.
It's as simple as that. They own it, they make decisions about it. This concept that people too fucking cheap or broke to buy games have more of a right to decide what is done with someone's property than the owner of that property is rediculous. It's arrogant nonsense. It doesn't even matter if piracy's self-decieving nonsense about it being 'not destructive' is actually true... the core of it is... it's arrogant bullshit that people who want free shit tell themselves because they're not willing to recognize that people have the rights to make their own decisions about their own shit.
Every other argument is sophistry.
Pirates do buy more media on average than people who do not pirate, so it is actually a statistically correct statement.kman123 said:
You can say "yeah, but my friend Charles McCocksucker is a pirate and he doesn't ever buy any media" but that is anecdote, which is not a form of evidence. Statistics are evidence, and statistics show that the average pirate buys more media legitimately than the average non-pirate.
That's not to say piracy is absolutely justified, but it is to say that pirates are very likely to spend their excess money on entertainment.
It is only deprivation of the thing if you actually do not have that thing anymore afterwards.DracoSuave said:
Steal a disc from a store, you deprive the store of that disc.
Make a digital copy of a game and put it on the internet, you deprive nobody of anything.
Well, you don't deprive them of their game. You could argue that you deprive them of theoretical potential for profit, but seeing as statistics show pirates already spend more money on media than non-pirates, that is unlikely.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/illegal-downloaders-spend-the-most-on-music-says-poll-1812776.htmlDracoSuave said:
and c'mon, its on this fucking site
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/95893-Filesharers-Spend-More-Money-on-Music-Survey-Finds
Can you not search the site you are currently on? Of course you can. It would contradict your opinion though, so you didn't.
hahaha. I laugh at the willful ignorance of it all.
Well, heres where you are getting the wrong end of the stick. In this thread we are discussing piracy as simply copying data, not then selling it. Using your example of a fake rolex, its as if you made fake rolexs then gave them away. No one is suggesting that priating data and then selling it is right.DracoSuave said:
I'll repeat again: Look up the word. You are just theorizing what YOU think the word means.DracoSuave said:
There is a reason these things are called "Intellectual Property" to begin with and the rules governing them are called "Copyright": Because intellectual property is not the same as physical goods.
On a fundemental level that is what humanity is. That's one of the reasons why I believe the cost of creating a world unity is worth it, especially if in doing so we manage to bring the global population down to a managable level for the amount of resources we have and keep it there.... which is an entirely differant discussion.RaffB said:
As things stand now the world is overpopulated, right now there simply isn't enough in the way of resources for everyone to maintain a standard of living anything close to the average American or citizen of the UK. Most of the planet is in abject poverty when you get down to it, China for example has huge, modern cities, but most of it's people (which cumulatively amount to like a third of the world population) live in abject poverty, things like SARS got started due to people living alongside their farm animals.
Those nations with good standards of living have to fight to maintain them, with ever dwindling supplies of resources. As enviromentalists will tell you things like wood, and metal are in increasingly short supply as we literally deforest and strip mine the planet to death just to meet current demands. This puts everyone in competition just to maintain what they have.
The situation we're looking at right now comes down to countries not wanting to actually pay for the goods they are receiving from other nations. Things like entertainment media are a kind of good that can't simply be cut off easily by refusing to deliver it for sale. The money paid for such things to countries out side of your own makes the businesses there and the goverments they pay taxes too richer and more powerful, while of course money you've spent is gone.
What we're looking at is a situation where policies like the one of the Swiss goverment are saying that it's okay for them to steal what other peoples are producing. A policy that encourages this beyond normal piracy because simply taking whatever they want media wise is not a crime. That's unfair to countries like the US where the production of media is a big deal and we ultimatly need that money for our own people. They are taking our products, and saying flat out that they won't even make an effort to engage in fair trade.
This might not be the kind of dramatic good vs. evil clash popular in movies in science fiction, but it's how the real world is. Two groups of people in direct competition for resources who want to get as much as possible while giving up as little as possible to stay on top. The Swiss figure the money they don't pay for the media can be spent on other things, especially seeing as we can't stop them from taking it.
As I've asked others who have taken exception to what I've said, implied I'm a lunatic, and everything else... how would YOU proceed and make them stop? I mean we've already asked which is why this ruling has come down, they have said 'no, we're going to steal from you', how else are we supposed to stop them. Anything on a large enough scale to force a change of national/cultural policy is going to be pretty brutal no matter what you might think.
See, I don't believe in killing millions of people at the drop of a hat for no reason. I suggest it frequently as a solution (at least in these forums) but largely because people seem to spend a loit of time complaining and hang wringing without any solutions because nobody wants to just flat out admit what needs to be done. Reality sucks.
My basic attitude here is that all of the times we've backed down and chosen to do nothing because the cost of stopping it was horrific, has lead to people increasingly deciding they can snub the US without repercussions since we won't do anything. Let's not forget, I'm talking about going after a nation for legalizing the theft of one of our nation's major exports.
I'd prefer they just made piracy illegal and tried to enforce the laws as much as they could. But really they aren't going to do that unless someone makes them. The question is ultimatly do we take the lumps, and those that this continueing trend inspires, or do we take action to defend our own rights and property?
Diplomacy can accomplish a lot, I always believe in trying that first, and the fact that such avenues are attempted before immediate violence is part of what makes humanity generally good. However continueing to try and re-try diplomacy when it fails is just stupid.
That's my thoughts at any rate, I doubt you can come up with anything better than "well, let them steal from us" but think carefully about all the times we've turned the other cheek and the state of our economy. Personally I think sticking up for ourselves and our own trade interests is not a bad thing, even if it involves using hardcore tactics, even on nations that make pretensions of being allied. I mean an ally wouldn't basically give itself free reign to rob you.
I'm not "insane" I'm merely a realist.
Who knows though, maybe a miracle will happen and aliens will uplift humanity so we can obtain enough living space and resources to not have to worry about this kind of crap. We get into a position where our population has limitless space and resources to grow at a high standard of living and I think you'd be surprised at how peaceful and tolerant we actually are on a fundemental level. Right now we're on an increasingly overpopulated planet with dwindling resources and direct conflict between multiple nations due to those conditions, all of which understandably puts themselves first as a matter of self preservation.... but well, it's not likely something so incredibly fortuitous is going to happen, things are just going to get worse until the planet is unified atop a mountain of corpses and we slowly and painfully progress into the universe at large. Unless of course we manage to remain divided and overpopulated until we run out of resources and then all die out when our sun goes nova.