Plot holes in "Avatar"

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Fire Daemon

Quoth the Daemon
Dec 18, 2007
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chickenlord said:
also how if their atmosphere isnt oxygen (im assuming its not oxygen cause human die in it) then how are there fires and explosions... not to get too technical but oxygen vital to fire...
The atmosphere is probably oxygen but it's the pollen, diseases, spores etc that are in the air that will kill you by allergic reaction. That is why it takes a long time to kill you than suffocation, maybe. The level of oxygen might just be low or maybe other oxidizing elements are present in the atmosphere such as fluorine. That might give the sky a different colour though, so I'm more agreeable with the allergy theory myself.
 

Hunde Des Krieg

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The film doesn't have anti human sentiment more like anti corporate sentiment and with that I can fully stand behind. The soldiers and marines were all fuckin' mercenaries and they got what they fuckin' deserved.
 

Hunde Des Krieg

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Internet Kraken said:
ReincarnatedFTP said:
Internet Kraken said:
ReincarnatedFTP said:
Internet Kraken said:
dantom1 said:
I don't think they were after resources that they needed and had run out of, they were after a certain resource that sold for alot. Basically, they were trying make money not survive.
That's bullshit. Why would there be such a high demand for this resource if it wasn't necessary?
It's called consumerism.

Also, how many people die in gang wars over illegal drugs and how many people have died for things like blood diamonds? They're certainly not necessary.
Do people lose billions of dollars worth of future tech when fighting over drugs? I don't think so. The value of the unobtanium would have to somehow outweigh all the money they spent trying to get it. And the only way something could be that valuable was if it was neccesary for human survival/expansion.
Or humanity/the particular people funding this project are greedy bastards who are really well off and don't give a damn about anybody but the bottom line.There are CEOs like that, even if they haven't taken it to the extent of Avatar (because they can't).

If you're arguing that it's a plothole in the movie fine, but from the movie it appears their motivation is nothing but greed.

And even if it hasn't all been in technology, the War on Drugs and the illegal activities it encourages have been a waste of billions of dollars.
That's what my problem is with the movie. You can't just say the only reason to do that is because of greed. It doesn't make sense.
Sure it does. Greed motivates all kinds of unholy things. The message is: Stop the corporate culture before it dominates society.
 

Commissar Sae

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HyenaThePirate said:
Commissar Sae said:
Nuclear genocide is bad for public opinion. This is a company we're talking about, Imagine a modern company openly bombing a region to get their resources, the shareholders would bail faster than rats from a sinking boat. So Cultural genocide and the destruction of their very way of life was deemed more publicly acceptable under the veneer of "civilization being brought to the savages." Also considering the makeshift bomb they had to make to try to destroy the hub, I doubt the company had access to top grade military hardware. (bringing us back to the choppers vs arrows argument.)
So you honestly think humans living on a dying world (assumably) 5 YEARS of CRYOSLEEP away from what would otherwise be considered an ass-backwards planet full of savage giant creatures really A.) would care about the plight of the Na'vi to FORM a publically acceptable opinion, and B.) would even hear much about the place to begin with? I doubt there would be much media coverage...

Honestly the corporation would have been able to spin whatever story they wanted, painted the Na'vi as an agressive savage race (like was done with the Native Americans back in the early days of America where every "civilized" white person thought the Indians were savage scalping monsters who killed women and children and had all manner of strange superstitions that drove their blood lust). Who was going to contest this? Hell, now they have PROOF to corroborate their story... "look at what they did.. they attacked us and we barely escaped with our lives! we tried to bring them peace!"

Anyone who was friendly enough with the Na'vi to contest that statement openly is either DEAD, or living as an Avatar back on Pandora.
Except for the countless references to limiting violence due to public opinion littered throughout the movie. One would assume there are independent reporters wandering around as well, not to mention all the tech just lying around that is quite likely logging all of their actions for the various people back home. Also wasn't Sigourney Weavers book a best seller. This is a strange and Alien world, people are going to be interested because lets face it, when you live in a concrete tower the idea of vast jungle worlds filled with exotic and beutiful things captures the imagination. Look at the way the west fixated on China and India during the 18th and 19th centuries. The East India company was able to get away with the Opium war essentially because the Chinese Empire was behaving eradically and mistreating british citizens prior to the war. However public opinion would have turned rather rapidly if they decided to go on an extermination campaign rather than a series of limited military skirmishes.

There will always be people interested in foreign cultures and different ways of life. Big Business can interfere and brutalize up to a certain point, but eventually theres a strong counter from moderates and leftists. See the end of slavery as another example.
 

NuclearPenguin

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Hubilub said:
Demented Teddy said:
Plot holes?
One for me is the fact that a human betrayed his fellow human to help aliens.
I personally don't understand why he would do it.
Because he liked the Na'vi more than the humans. Doesn't get more simple than that
Exactly, its like me, I like the escapist more than reality and I would betray humanity to keep it!

[sub]Im sane..[/sub]
 

deepblue2

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Just to clarify some technical details being discussed as plot holes:

Some of these answers arent readily apparent in the theatrical release but the info comes from Cameron via his websites, books , interviews...Would have been nice to have every little detail explained in the movie but it would have been much longer I suppose. I'm sure more details will come out in the sequels and dvd release.

1) Why call it "unobtainium"? Cameron used this classic sci-fi term first coined in the 1950s to refer to any substance that was considered difficult or impossible to acquire. Yes, the name might sound a bit funny to some but its not entirely out of the realm of possibility that somebody would name the mineral that way once it was found (look at the scientific names of some things these days...example: there's the beetle species Colon rectum, first described in 1933). Its not explained in the theatrical release of the film but according to the official websites, books, etc. the unobtainium is the only known high temperature superconductor and is vital to Earth's economy. Fossil fuels have been exhausted and high-efficiency energy systems are critical.

2) Where did Norm go when his Avatar was wounded/killed in the big fight? There was a quick scene, shortly after he crawled out of his link chamber, showing him heading off into the jungle with an assault rifle while wearing his filter mask. Who knows were he went. The shack was parked close to the Tree of Souls so maybe he was heading there to help fight, or maybe he was trying to get away from the bomber heading their way (I'd have parked the shack a bit further away from ground zero i think but thats just me! They wanted to be as close as they could to the center of the flux to remain undetected so there is a reason however) The link chamber that was crushed shortly thereafter by the Colonel was the middle one, right next to Jakes. It was the same one Grace used as a bed when she was wounded. Norm's was at the other end of the shack.

3) How many Na'vi warriors are there? Only a few thousand at the big battle. According to the Colonel's war briefing just before the attack it only took a day for this many to gather. According to Jake this was 15 clans worth. Presumably this would be just the clans in the immediate vicinity. The Colonel was clearly worried about allowing more to show up if he waited to attack. Pandora is a moon yes, but its also nearly the size of Earth (not detailed in the movie but in the background info on the official websites). Why not link and contact everyone? Who knows, maybe they did as well. Certainly Eywa did to gather animals to fight. Still takes a while for people to travel great distances.


4) What happens if you breath the unfiltered air of Pandora? Also as detailed in the official background info, the air is tainted with poisonous carbon monoxide and sulphur dioxide. Thus the need for the exopack filters. According to the sergeants briefing as the shuttle landed, breathing the air unfiltered will cause unconsciousness in 20 seconds and death within a couple of minutes (2?). The Colonel did seem to have a pretty good capacity for holding his breath towards the end. Course none of the characters had immediate problems with atmosphere so long as the vehicle they were in didnt lose a whole windshield at once. Looked like they might have been benefiting from having the cabins partially pressurized.

5) How long did it take to travel to Pandora from Earth? 5 years 8 or 9 months and some days. They didnt go into it in the movie but they apparently have developed real-time commmunication with Earth. According to the official website its expensive, ~$7000/bit of data transfered. So that would be how the production reports, supply requisitions, corporate approvals for spinal repairs, etc go back and forth with out having to wait 12 years for a reply. Might have been nice to have a quick scene involving a data-burst transmission going back and forth...maybe in the dvd release...

6) WHy would the RDA not just nuke the planet and take the mineral? Assuming no humanitarian effort to keep them in check, the RDA would lose its monopoly on Pandora, the neighboring moons and the rest of known space if they use weapons of mass destruction. Official site emphasizes that. RDA is powerful but not the only megacorporation on Earth. Will they be back? I'm pretty sure. We'll see more of em in the next 2 movies that are planned. Unobtainium is too valuable. Will there be further conflict? Almost certainly. According to Cameron, the Na'vi hometrees and other sacred places are usually found on deposits of unobtainium.

7) Why was Jake able to ride a Banshee and the Leonoptryx? Movie said that the animals only flew with one rider for life. It didnt say the rider only flew with the one Banshee his/her whole life.

8) Where did the other Avatar's come from? Well obviously the one Link Center shown at the main base had chambers for 10-12 simultaneously Avatar drivers. There were always drivers entering and exiting their chambers whenever that room was shown, as well as chambers shown closed and in the "engaged" configuration inside their respective alcoves. I counted 12 Avatars outside the base in that scene when Jake runs out for the first time. The end scene shows 3 or 4 of them guarding the shuttle loading (easy to pick em out with their t-shirts, shorts and shoes). Presumably they were off doing the research they were there for, Pandora is a big place. The field shack where the main characters spent alot of the movie was site #26, so its possible there are other similar posts out and about doing what they do.

Yes, there's some things that aren't spelled out in black and white in the movie. I'm a stickler for details so I like to see them. With some movies I can also suspend disbelief enough to appreciate that there are grainy details that are perhaps only hinted at in the background. I imagine some got cut out in interests of time. More will get explained in the sequels. There's something to keeping people asking questions too, and not wrapping everything up in a tight bow. I kind of look at it as this is a brand new world that Cameron created and we'll hopefully get more details as the franchise continues. When Peter Jackson did Lord of the Rings he had the mixed blessing of working with a fairly well known story. That meant he didnt necessarily have to explain every little detail, and certainly not all in the first movie. Of course he did have the challenge of meeting everyone's preconceived expectations of the results. Yes, Avatar certainly has some plot elements that have been done before (Dances with Wolves, Medicine Man, the Aliens franchise,etc) but absolutely original stories are very few and far between if possible at all. The challenge for film makers, authors and other story tellers is to come up with new ways to present familiar story elements in entertaining ways that people can relate to.
 

moose_man

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Godavari said:
MONSTERheart said:
What I don't understand is the whole deal with the big flying things. Supposedly, you "connect for life" with a certain one, but halfway through Jake ditches his for the big orange one.
Yeah! THats what I thought! And also, wouldn't that hurt to jump from that high up onto the orange 1...?
 

teisjm

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Demented Teddy said:
HUBILUB said:
Demented Teddy said:
Plot holes?
One for me is the fact that a human betrayed his fellow human to help aliens.
I personally don't understand why he would do it.
Because he liked the Na'vi more than the humans. Doesn't get more simple than that
He's a traitor in my opinion.
He betrayed assholes.
Think about it, how many fellow humans do you know which you despise? Just cause you're the same species doesn't mean you're bonded by some unbreakable unity.
Heck theres tons of people i like less than my cat. Ofc theres also many people i like more, but still theres tons of fucktards out there, and i don't see why i should care about them just cause we're the same species.

This would mean that star wars (the original trilogy) is a big plot hole, why would luke want to side with a green alien, a wookie and a ghost to fight the empire, who seems to consist almost entirely of humans? Is he a traitor then?
 

Danpascooch

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Apr 16, 2009
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MONSTERheart said:
So I went to the theater yesterday and saw Avatar in 3d. It was pretty good. Today, I was reflecting on the movie a little when I realized there was something odd. I shall recount the scenes in which this plot hole occurs.

WARNING, SPOILERS

Hole #1 (my friend actually pointed this one out): In the beginning scene where Jake first takes control of the avatar, he comes across numerous other avatars (the ones playing basketball, numerous others you see scattered about). These ones are never seen in the movie again. Who's avatars are they and what purpose do they serve?

Hole #2: During the final battle, we see that the avatar of Norm (the other scientist guy) is killed. Norm emerges from his pod, perfectly fine but visibly shaken. Later, once the main bad guy dies, Jake's real body ends up on the ground outside his pod, struggling for air. Na'vi princess lady comes in and everythings fine.

END SPOILERS

#1: Ok, so it's not really a plot hole, but it's still interesting to point out. There seems to be no purpose for them to be there.

#2: So, where did Norm go? Did he just wander off into the jungle? Surely he would have gone to help his friend Jake, who was struggling for breath on the floor of the mobile outpost. We see him again later at the end, but where did he go?

Did anyone else catch these? Or am I just wrong and missed something that would explain this?
I noticed that with Norm too, wtf was that?

Also, when all of the humans were being escorted onto shuttles at then end, they WEREN'T WEARING ANY FUCKING MASKS, for something integral to the climax of the movie, they seemed to forget that the humans need masks like FOUR FUCKING MINUTES LATER. Also, I don't think the medical people that chased Jake out of the compound when he first took control of an avatar were wearing masks either.

Forgetting the masks, for a movie that took so long to make, is just fucking lazy.

Also, apparently only four times in the history of the Navi did anyone think of the genius maneuver Jake used to capture the orange thing......dropping on its back.
 

Danpascooch

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Apr 16, 2009
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deepblue2 said:
Just to clarify some technical details being discussed as plot holes:

Some of these answers arent readily apparent in the theatrical release but the info comes from Cameron via his websites, books , interviews...Would have been nice to have every little detail explained in the movie but it would have been much longer I suppose. I'm sure more details will come out in the sequels and dvd release.

1) Why call it "unobtainium"? Cameron used this classic sci-fi term first coined in the 1950s to refer to any substance that was considered difficult or impossible to acquire. Yes, the name might sound a bit funny to some but its not entirely out of the realm of possibility that somebody would name the mineral that way once it was found (look at the scientific names of some things these days...example: there's the beetle species Colon rectum, first described in 1933). Its not explained in the theatrical release of the film but according to the official websites, books, etc. the unobtainium is the only known high temperature superconductor and is vital to Earth's economy. Fossil fuels have been exhausted and high-efficiency energy systems are critical.

2) Where did Norm go when his Avatar was wounded/killed in the big fight? There was a quick scene, shortly after he crawled out of his link chamber, showing him heading off into the jungle with an assault rifle while wearing his filter mask. Who knows were he went. The shack was parked close to the Tree of Souls so maybe he was heading there to help fight, or maybe he was trying to get away from the bomber heading their way (I'd have parked the shack a bit further away from ground zero i think but thats just me! They wanted to be as close as they could to the center of the flux to remain undetected so there is a reason however) The link chamber that was crushed shortly thereafter by the Colonel was the middle one, right next to Jakes. It was the same one Grace used as a bed when she was wounded. Norm's was at the other end of the shack.

3) How many Na'vi warriors are there? Only a few thousand at the big battle. According to the Colonel's war briefing just before the attack it only took a day for this many to gather. According to Jake this was 15 clans worth. Presumably this would be just the clans in the immediate vicinity. The Colonel was clearly worried about allowing more to show up if he waited to attack. Pandora is a moon yes, but its also nearly the size of Earth (not detailed in the movie but in the background info on the official websites). Why not link and contact everyone? Who knows, maybe they did as well. Certainly Eywa did to gather animals to fight. Still takes a while for people to travel great distances.


4) What happens if you breath the unfiltered air of Pandora? Also as detailed in the official background info, the air is tainted with poisonous carbon monoxide and sulphur dioxide. Thus the need for the exopack filters. According to the sergeants briefing as the shuttle landed, breathing the air unfiltered will cause unconsciousness in 20 seconds and death within a couple of minutes (2?). The Colonel did seem to have a pretty good capacity for holding his breath towards the end. Course none of the characters had immediate problems with atmosphere so long as the vehicle they were in didnt lose a whole windshield at once. Looked like they might have been benefiting from having the cabins partially pressurized.

5) How long did it take to travel to Pandora from Earth? 5 years 8 or 9 months and some days. They didnt go into it in the movie but they apparently have developed real-time commmunication with Earth. According to the official website its expensive, ~$7000/bit of data transfered. So that would be how the production reports, supply requisitions, corporate approvals for spinal repairs, etc go back and forth with out having to wait 12 years for a reply. Might have been nice to have a quick scene involving a data-burst transmission going back and forth...maybe in the dvd release...

6) WHy would the RDA not just nuke the planet and take the mineral? Assuming no humanitarian effort to keep them in check, the RDA would lose its monopoly on Pandora, the neighboring moons and the rest of known space if they use weapons of mass destruction. Official site emphasizes that. RDA is powerful but not the only megacorporation on Earth. Will they be back? I'm pretty sure. We'll see more of em in the next 2 movies that are planned. Unobtainium is too valuable. Will there be further conflict? Almost certainly. According to Cameron, the Na'vi hometrees and other sacred places are usually found on deposits of unobtainium.

7) Why was Jake able to ride a Banshee and the Leonoptryx? Movie said that the animals only flew with one rider for life. It didnt say the rider only flew with the one Banshee his/her whole life.

8) Where did the other Avatar's come from? Well obviously the one Link Center shown at the main base had chambers for 10-12 simultaneously Avatar drivers. There were always drivers entering and exiting their chambers whenever that room was shown, as well as chambers shown closed and in the "engaged" configuration inside their respective alcoves. I counted 12 Avatars outside the base in that scene when Jake runs out for the first time. The end scene shows 3 or 4 of them guarding the shuttle loading (easy to pick em out with their t-shirts, shorts and shoes). Presumably they were off doing the research they were there for, Pandora is a big place. The field shack where the main characters spent alot of the movie was site #26, so its possible there are other similar posts out and about doing what they do.

Yes, there's some things that aren't spelled out in black and white in the movie. I'm a stickler for details so I like to see them. With some movies I can also suspend disbelief enough to appreciate that there are grainy details that are perhaps only hinted at in the background. I imagine some got cut out in interests of time. More will get explained in the sequels. There's something to keeping people asking questions too, and not wrapping everything up in a tight bow. I kind of look at it as this is a brand new world that Cameron created and we'll hopefully get more details as the franchise continues. When Peter Jackson did Lord of the Rings he had the mixed blessing of working with a fairly well known story. That meant he didnt necessarily have to explain every little detail, and certainly not all in the first movie. Of course he did have the challenge of meeting everyone's preconceived expectations of the results. Yes, Avatar certainly has some plot elements that have been done before (Dances with Wolves, Medicine Man, the Aliens franchise,etc) but absolutely original stories are very few and far between if possible at all. The challenge for film makers, authors and other story tellers is to come up with new ways to present familiar story elements in entertaining ways that people can relate to.
You know what, I don't buy post-patching of loop holes, if it wasn't explained in the movie, I consider it a loophole, you shouldn't have to reference books or websites to explain what happened in a fucking movie when the movie was the primary source of the material.

I didn't think the movie was even that great, good special effects sure, but storyline-wise it wasn't very good, you should see the Avatar forums lol, it's the new twilight, it's full of emo kids saying this like: "The next day I was really depressed to wake up still in this world, and I knew I had to see it again, people are starting to realize the dream will never come true"

First off, wow, it's a fucking movie, secondly, it took you a day to realize it was fiction? Good luck getting into a decent college, lastly, what fucking dream? The dream of getting brutally shot to death with giant arrows by eight foot tall blue cats?
 

Aunel

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Demented Teddy said:
Plot holes?
One for me is the fact that a human betrayed his fellow human to help aliens.
I personally don't understand why he would do it.

Unobtainium must be a very valuable resource and must be being used to fuel humanity's growth if it's worth so much, if RDA was granted monopoly rights to mine for it and the fact that they are spending so much to get it.

So he isn't betraying RDA, he's betraying his race!
yeah about this "unobtainium" what the hell does it do?
you wanna make jewelry out of it or what?

First one that gives me the picture of a bass made out of the stuff get's a cookie and a custom written slap solo sent to him/her!

OT: as Noelle pointed out, the dude's betraying not only his army, his company, but on top of that all his own race, for some bloody aliens?
 

cieply

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Oct 21, 2009
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Demented Teddy said:
Plot holes?
One for me is the fact that a human betrayed his fellow human to help aliens.
I personally don't understand why he would do it.

Unobtainium must be a very valuable resource and must be being used to fuel humanity's growth if it's worth so much, if RDA was granted monopoly rights to mine for it and the fact that they are spending so much to get it.

So he isn't betraying RDA, he's betraying his race!
Why?
A piece of that blue ass... mmm
 

Hollock

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They're there for Unobtanium. Now I know what you're going to say to that, "how did they know unobtainium was there before they got there?". Well, if humans discovered a planet full of intelligent life forms, we absolutely go there do research the planet.
 

CommyGingerbreadMan

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The thing that got me was the Thanator that Natiri rides at the end. The whole movie was beautiful, but did anyone else notice that this one Thanator isn't shaded or lighted correctly? It is brighter then Natiri, it's back fur (skin?) is illuminated as if the sun is directly on it and no trees are above, yet Natiri standing in the same area looks like she belongs there. and has no shadow casted and neither does any shadow cover it.

Also, funny, I didn't notice at all that no one was wearing a mask at the end (probably by that time in the movie, your thinking more about going to the bathroom)
 

mesoforte

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Sooo, here's what bothered me-

The techniques the humans used:

Instead of using bombs, a simple virus that attacked the Na'vi's connection with all the things around them would have completely devastated the culture. If the company had enough tech to make full bodies, they had enough tech to make biological weapons. After that point it would be a simple manner to win over infected Na'vi to your side and quickly overpower the few left.

It's not like they would understand what was happening. Knowing how to counteract viruses is something that comes with civilization. Without that knowledge, superstitions would develop along with prejudice and discrimination between even the same tribe members.

If that didn't work, a second virus that caused death would be easy as well(Or nuclear weapons. Its not like it wasn't a multi-billion dollar corporation.)

That and the fact the movie is perpetuating the idea of the 'noble savage.' I worry when Rousseau has so much effect on people. :\
 

epic_ellen

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What does unobtainium actually DO? That is never explained. It's just this shiny rock thing that's hella expensive and a whole bunch of aliens have to die so the humans can get it, but what does it actually do? Is it fuel? Could it be used for building materials? What?
 

lordlillen

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wow yust wow i cant belive no óne has posted anything on this i saw this the second view
in the begining briefing (when he comes and the general talks about pandora) the genaral says
*bla bla bla wich means there very hard to kill*
erhm three bullets in the chest isnt very hard thats more like a mild annoyance.
thats what it takes to kill the guy who yumped in to the bomber anny one else noticed this?