Police brutality, how should it be handled?

kyp275

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Mar 27, 2012
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Verlander said:
In the nicest possible way, a reply like that is politically and historically ignorant.
Says the guy who first claims not to US-bash, then proceeds with said bash, ok.

What does the second world war have with a document that is hundreds of years old, and is vague at best?
Why, obviously a country based on such joke of an old dusty document would be beneath fine proper gentlemen like yourself. There would obviously have been no need for lowly us to come to the aid of great nation that are full of such wonderful people.

true democracy wasn't free in the US until well after the second world war, so it's hardly all that long standing. If you accept those inequalities, Great Britain beat you to it as well.
If disenfranchisement means a country is not a democracy, then there would be zero democracies in the world, probably ever. BTW, you should know that there IS no "true democracy" outside of Athens back in the old days, and that came with a HUGE chunk of disenfranchisement.

I'm pretty sure the UK didn't transition to a constitutional monarchy until the mid-late 1800s. And the Althing means jack all if the officials weren't elected, not to mention Iceland was under the rule of various kingdoms throughout most of its history. Are you trying to say that a non-elected political body that's subservient to various monarchies is somehow a democracy?

The "we saved your ass in the war!" stereotype is funny because it's so preposterous.
Ah yes, naturally the UK would've held out just fine against the Germans if the US had never gotten involved nor provided supplies right? I do apologize, for a moment I actually dared to doubt the mighty Brits.

Now the US is an incredibly unequal country.
And you want to rip on the US Constitution as "vague". Please, do list what's "incredibly unequal" country, and we can actually discuss how "incredibly unequal" it is, especially compared to other countries.

None of this has anything to do with Nato (which will probably fold at some stage in the near future as the world develops). The US doesn't subsidise the UK military.
Yea ok, someone hasn't read the news for awhile. You see, there was this thing that Russia did, that got quite a few NATO member not very happy or safe...

And no, as far as I'm concerned, every member state of NATO has their national defense subsidized by the US. Forget about the fact that many doesn't even meet their minimum obligation under the terms of the alliance, the alliance itself would have little teeth if not backed up with the US military.
 

chris89300

Senior Member
Jun 5, 2010
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kyp275 said:
Verlander said:
In the nicest possible way, a reply like that is politically and historically ignorant.
Says the guy who first claims not to US-bash, then proceeds with said bash, ok.

What does the second world war have with a document that is hundreds of years old, and is vague at best?
Why, obviously a country based on such joke of an old dusty document would be beneath fine proper gentlemen like yourself. There would obviously have been no need for lowly us to come to the aid of great nation that are full of such wonderful people.

true democracy wasn't free in the US until well after the second world war, so it's hardly all that long standing. If you accept those inequalities, Great Britain beat you to it as well.
If disenfranchisement means a country is not a democracy, then there would be zero democracies in the world, probably ever. BTW, you should know that there IS no "true democracy" outside of Athens back in the old days, and that came with a HUGE chunk of disenfranchisement.

I'm pretty sure the UK didn't transition to a constitutional monarchy until the mid-late 1800s. And the Althing means jack all if the officials weren't elected, not to mention Iceland was under the rule of various kingdoms throughout most of its history. Are you trying to say that a non-elected political body that's subservient to various monarchies is somehow a democracy?

The "we saved your ass in the war!" stereotype is funny because it's so preposterous.
Ah yes, naturally the UK would've held out just fine against the Germans if the US had never gotten involved nor provided supplies right? I do apologize, for a moment I actually dared to doubt the mighty Brits.

Now the US is an incredibly unequal country.
And you want to rip on the US Constitution as "vague". Please, do list what's "incredibly unequal" country, and we can actually discuss how "incredibly unequal" it is, especially compared to other countries.

None of this has anything to do with Nato (which will probably fold at some stage in the near future as the world develops). The US doesn't subsidise the UK military.
Yea ok, someone hasn't read the news for awhile. You see, there was this thing that Russia did, that got quite a few NATO member not very happy or safe...

And no, as far as I'm concerned, every member state of NATO has their national defense subsidized by the US. Forget about the fact that many doesn't even meet their minimum obligation under the terms of the alliance, the alliance itself would have little teeth if not backed up with the US military.
You talk about democracy but what color are you? What gender are you? That should give you a hint.
 

kyp275

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Mar 27, 2012
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chris89300 said:
If trolling is all you want, please, go find another thread.
And... reported.

Disagreeing with you is not "trolling", as shocking as it may be to someone who's only interested in having an echo chamber. By the way, you may also want to read the forum guidelines, where it's quite explicitly stated that calling other people trolling is expressly prohibited.

Also, please do continue to prove my point by failing to address my points or misunderstand them in hilarious fashion*,and proceed to respond with ad hominem attacks, stay classy.

*(hint, you may want to refrain from trying to be a know-it-all to someone who's actually been in the military, used said military equipment in a warzone, and understands what all the terminology actually means and how they're applied, when you don't even understand the basic constructions of a firearm).
 

chris89300

Senior Member
Jun 5, 2010
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Tigerlemur said:
Just gonna toss some change into this here thread.

As a disclaimer, I will say that I am currently attending a university in order to obtain a Law Enforcement degree. Take that as you will. Secondly, all of my information really only pertains to police in the United States, as that's where I am learning and plan to work. I don't speak for anywhere else.

To start off, I'll say that I've never had a bad experience with a police officer. That seems relatively uncommon these days, but it's true. The last run in with the police that I had was when I was a passenger in my friend's vehicle. It was a seatbelt check point. My friend actually, just as we pulled up, realized he lost his wallet. So, no license and he also couldn't find his auto insurance card. That's a very reasonable ticket. But you know what? The officer just let us go. He saw my buddy was kinda freaked out and apologetic and he just let us go, told us he'd definitely ticket us(him?) next time though.

But, as anecdotal evidence, that's not very useful to the discussion. I just wanted to pour a little sugar into this vinegar discussion.

More to the point, a lot of people are upset that police are held to a separate standard. There's actually a reason for this, and it comes from good intentions. I describe it in two ways: one 'good faith,' and two, 'need to act.' Good faith occurs when a police officer follows procedure as he was trained, even if something went awry, he cannot be held criminally responsible. An example of this is the case of Florence v. Board of Chosen Freeholders of the County of Burlington (2012) (what a mouthful). In this case, Florence was stopped and arrested based on an outstanding warrant and put through various search procedures at the jail. The kicker was that the warrant was already paid off, but had not been taken out of the system. This was not the arresting officer's fault. His computer either malfunctioned, or it was never taken out as a mistake. HOWEVER, it is important to note that Florence was given a cash settlement as reparations because of what they mistakenly put him through. Could you imagine if we put this officer in jail though? He didn't do anything wrong. What kind of message does that send to other officers?

Onto the second part, 'need to act' (not an actual definition, it's mine). Essentially, if police have to worry about the legality of a situation too much, they may fail to act when it is needed. Don't mistake these words, they still must act in a legal way, BUT they are viewed less harshly so that they can act in emergency situations where they, or other people, may be at risk. If police had to consider EVERY situation's complete legality and how things might shake out... Police officers may never act at all, which would be just as bad, really.

So, what do we do about this? Well, a couple of things: training, recording devices and civil suits. Training is the most important aspect to reducing police brutalities and other mistakes. The recording devices, as others mentioned here, would also go a long way in protecting both the police and the public. Finally, civil suits. Lots of people get angry that police don't often face jail time for their actions. The great thing (sometimes not so great) about America though is that when there is not enough evidence for criminal liability, there might be enough for civil liability. It's not jail time, true, but at least the victims can gain reparations (usually money) for their suffering. Lots of cases of police brutality don't end with police behind bars, but they do end with some of the officers paying out the nose to the victim, which is often overlooked.

Call my biased if you will, because I am, but I did try to lessen the impact of that fact. In the end, I'm glad we have police, because they do serve an important function and I am happy to have them around when I need them. I, personally, look forward to a career where I can help give back to my community. For you guys, I'll try to keep my nose clean too. ;)

Hope you can buy a pack of gum with this stuff :)

First off, yeah, they started doing that in France too lately. No, 100% not reasonable. Never in my life did I get a ticked for that. And I'm not the kind who carries his papers around everywhere.

Second, mistakes can happen, they do all the time, but we're not taking about mistakes here, far from it.

What we're talking about is police god complex. The guy I talked with earlier had a good story. Some cop pushed a dude, he fell and smashed his skull, he died. That is a mistake. A mistake that a civilian would go to jail for, rarely a cop.

Mistakes happen and if you really want to be held at the exact same standards as a civilian, then go to jail for the same shit a civilian would go to. Is that not 100% fair if you want the same treatment ?

But we're not talking about mistakes. We're talking about savage beatings, ganging up on one dude, killings, and other shit that are rarely punished as they should. We're talking about conscientious abuse.

Young children getting interrogated for hours for being kids pretty much, even some weird case when police shut down a 2-girl lemonade stand. Shit like this makes us think the police is a joke.

In one of the towns I've lived, a known and proved serial pedo was being protected by the police because he turn a low level weed dealer in, instead of rotting in jail.

How is any of this normal?
The officers that cause all this damage are simply put not human beings.

I've just listen to part of the Ferguson stuff. Some (don't remember which one) threatened the fuck out of people. Like in "you do this, that, etc, I will hurt you. The only thing of all he said that justified ANY kind of violence is "walk towards me aggressively". Yeah, if you're gonna be a threat, a cop should definitely defend himself, it's obvious, moral and perfectly normal behavior.

Or that guy who was slightly speeding who got pulled over by a cop who wasn't even in service, no uniform, no nothing, the first thing he does is pull his gun out and point it at the driver?

This is not normal human behavior. Some people are maniacs, and maniacs shouldn't be in the force.
Training is very lacking.


Yeah I know there are good cops. One time, I was drunk as all hell, like really, really drunk. Some cops followed me and pulled me over (they were in a civilian vehicle, didn't notice them).

I don't know if they were busy or not, but I only got off with "better not be drunk next time, or you'll be getting it for both times".

Or maybe they just saw the "A" on my car (I live in France, means you've had your licence for less than 3 years and (back then) you got less than half of the strikes you get when you stop having the "A" thing).

Either way, the guy who talked to me had seen I was completely wasted, fucked as all hell. And he let me go just like that, because I wasn't driving dangerously, only fast (was 11:30pm - 12am, streets were empty).

The guy was chill, nothing but respectful, normal, reasonable. He didn't threaten to bash my skull in or nothing. THAT is a cop, and not because he didn't actually arrest me, but because he reacted appropriately. I wasn't putting anyone but myself at risk, so he didn't throw me in jail, AND he talked to me like a normal human being and not as an alcoholic or a terrorist or anything.

Yeah, I did something illegal, but he responded reasonably and not like a maniac, throwing me out of my car and pulling a gun at me. (He was armed, yeah, but he didn't even go near his sidearm, nor his baton) Hell, he didn't even make me get out of the car, only cut my engine.
 

chris89300

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Jun 5, 2010
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Hehe got some nice relevant links if anyone's interested:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/the-pros-and-cons-of-militarizing-the-police,36717/
http://thebiggestproblemintheuniverse.com/episode-15/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUdHIatS36A

Edit: the Youtube link is a John Oliver video, it's pretty funny :).
 

Qizx

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Feb 21, 2011
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My big issue isn't that there are bad cops and good cops, you'll have that in any profession anywhere. My issue is that the bad cops often times get away with FLAGRANT abuses of power. I'll echo what other people have said: Have a lapel or somehow mounted camera at all times when the officer is on duty. This alone would solve almost all issues.
 

Andrey Sirotin

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Mar 17, 2012
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chris89300 said:
Sup guys.

I've just seen yet another police brutality video, as usual without provocation and I wanted to know what you guys thought about it.

More specifically, how we, as citizens, should handle it.
But, and this is the tricky part, not individually. Because as we all know, if an individual goes up against a cop in court, the citizen will pay dearly, but never the cop, even if all the evidence is against that cop.

So, as the people who PUT FOOD ON COPS' TABLES, how should we handle this? Cuz let's be honest, they're little more than garbage men. Public servants. Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for garbage men, but not in the slightest for cops.

And for the smartasses: YES, I know there are good, even great cops, hell, I personally know a few, but most of them are little more than abusive little shits, so the topic is about the latter.
Well, there's your problem, you don't respect the cops. And the majority of people who get into violent confrontations with the police do not respect the badge. If the LEO stops you, follow their instructions while announcing your actions aloud (they have mics and cameras) And if you feel that your rights have been violated, talk to their super.
 

CrystalViolet

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May 14, 2014
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I used to be a police detective and worked specialist roles. I fucking hate myself for it. The truth is that I had to enforce laws that I can't honestly justify. The police have far too many powers and get away with so much abuse. Police academies are pitri dishes for ego cultures. Don't get me wrong, I worked with some wonderful people, but there's little room for question or creativity. It's like police forces are tailored to filter egoists into the higher ranks. I'm not at all proud of my time with the police. I've witnessed and reported abuses first-hand, and it was pretty much par for the course to intimidate and belittle "weaker" members of society. Do let me stress, though, that I've also witnessed some wonderful acts of kindness and self-sacrifice from some of my colleagues.

I must point out that I never worked in the US were it seems to be twenty-fold worse than where I was, and where I worked could easily be described as a police state. At least we had an at least somewhat independent ombudsman but it seems like American police can get away with series State-sanctioned abuse and violations of human rights.

As for what we can do about it, we're not really going to see a huge change without some serious overhaul of the training, recruitment, and even culture within police forces. In the meantime the best that one can do is inform yourself of your rights, exercise them, and use that knowledge when contacting organisations specifically tasked with investigating policing abuses.
 

wildstyle96

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Oct 7, 2014
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I'm surprised no one has even gotten onto the topic of the NYPD...
They're in another abuse related news report today, sorry its Slate.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2014/10/07/nypd_beating_video_teenager_surrendering_during_marijuana_arrest_is_attacked.html?wpsrc=fol_tw

And on the issue of ex-military vehicles?
No average police force needs that gear. Even SWAT have abused their use of such vehicles, look up the infamous "batteram" B-100 assault vehicle. Coming from a family with background in the military, having sat inside military trucks and vehicles I can say that even the trucks are nothing compared to something a civilian or police force should have.

In the incident of Ferguson, if the situation was so bad (which it only escalated to because of the police) then dedicated riot police such as you find in the UK or Australia, should have been called in. Not men in gear on par with the military. Did that honestly look like something that would de-escalate the situation? They looked like SWAT teams about to take down a crowd. Especially the snipers posted on roof tops.
 

Verlander

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kyp275 said:
----CUT----

It's not worth arguing with someone who is comfortable in the world they've created for themselves. Reality will deal with them in their own way.
 

Verlander

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Apr 22, 2010
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----CUT----

It's not worth arguing with someone who is comfortable in the world they've created for themselves. Reality will deal with them in their own way.
 

Thaluikhain

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wildstyle96 said:
In the incident of Ferguson, if the situation was so bad (which it only escalated to because of the police) then dedicated riot police such as you find in the UK or Australia, should have been called in. Not men in gear on par with the military. Did that honestly look like something that would de-escalate the situation? They looked like SWAT teams about to take down a crowd. Especially the snipers posted on roof tops.
Also, notably, they were wearing woodland camouflage. You don't wear that in an urban environment unless you want to look military.