[Politics] Apparently I'm 'Canadian' before I even knew it (The Dangers of Coded Language)

[Saelune]

The only way of it actually going down I can come up with is it being allowed to be proven wrong in a rational debate through logic and persuasion and to have that environment you can't be driving it underground. For example, there's this ted talk of a black musician who befriended a KKK wizard and went to their rallies and everything, ended up becoming close friends, and eventually convinced him that the KKK was wrong and he left it. If you can convince the KKK wizard, you can convince anyone.

Oh, just reason with the people who buy into pseudoscience that says that their race is superior to everyone else? One problem though. They aren't rational people. One wizard was befriended. Ok. One down, millions upon millions to go. And historically speaking, negative attitudes weren't gotten rid of because someone saw the light. More often than not, younger generations adopted more progressive ideas and the old toxic ones died out with the old generation. Dreiko? You're well-intentioned. But shockingly naive.

I never said that my approach would eradicate racism, just that it's the best option we have available to us and every other one would be even worse. The point about the wizard is that that's someone who is entrenched and bases their identity on their crazy supremacist ideology, not your run of the mill person who believes in some racist ideas while being more or less normal otherwise, so if even someone like that can be convinced, I don't get how people imply that less fanatical individuals are just beyond logic and persuasion.

It's not gonna work for everyone but it can work for more people than any other thing I can come up with.

The only way of it actually going down I can come up with is it being allowed to be proven wrong in a rational debate through logic and persuasion and to have that environment you can't be driving it underground. For example, there's this ted talk of a black musician who befriended a KKK wizard and went to their rallies and everything, ended up becoming close friends, and eventually convinced him that the KKK was wrong and he left it. If you can convince the KKK wizard, you can convince anyone.

If people don't know that racism is wrong, they've chosen not to know. Reasoned debate only works when people are interested in it.

Just look at flat-earthers, creationists, homeopathists, anti-vaxxers etc. Everyone, and I mean everyone, who takes any time seriously considering those viewpoints and is willing to consider actual facts and evidence can see they are totally wrong. But zillions of people hold those views because that's setting the bar far too high.

You will always have crazy people stuck in their ideology. The question I'm tackling here is not "how do we completely eradicate racism from everyone" but "which approach will eradicate the racism from the most people possible while not restricting our freedoms". I never purport that my approach will manage to make insane people stop being insane. Thing is, nothing will do that. There will always be some insane people out there.

We did not end segregated restaurants, hospitals, schools and water fountains by trying to tell people, that is "not nice" we not only had to outlaw it, we literally had to bring the National Guard in to make it happen. We would not even have female or minority physicians in hospitals if it were not by force and firing of racist and sexist doctors. That is the reality of how we have had to accomplish these things and without that happening, it would not have happened at all.

Driving racism underground IS the best way to deal with it, just as we drive murder, thieving and assault underground by not tolerating it in our society. If they are limiting their own employment due to ethics violations, limiting their own ability to attend Universities due to being in violation to their code of conduct, limiting their access to social media because they are violating the rules, they will not be able to spread their toxic ideas and behavior as easily and less people will be impacted by it. Think of hate speech as a contagious disease, when diseases are extremely harmful and easily spread, they are quarantined. Outlawing hate speech is just quarantining a behavior that has repeatedly proven itself extremely harmful to society and it's sheer existence poses a threat to the rights of others ability to achieve life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

The way civil rights were achieved was by persuading people with power to allow them. Black people weren't the ones with the power to end segregation at the time, they just were right and persuaded those who were in power to do it. Women didn't have the vote so they literally couldn't legislate for them to get the vote to the chagrin of those who were against that, either, they actually convinced those in power through logic.

There was a time where those in power would not agree to ending segregation, they would not agree to tackle workplace discrimination. Causing these people to shift is an example of the sort of persuasion I'm talking about.

I think the reason why my approach seems unpalatable is that it puts the power not in the hands of those who want to have it, so even if it does give positive results, it will not make people feel as good about them as a culture of punching nazis does, even if such a culture is actively worse for the reduction of racism.

I think that's a really dumb and selfish way to organize society.


When you quarantine a disease you are not just leaving the person there to fester, you're actually treating them while they're quarantined. If you quarantine a disease and just stop there it may mutate into something worse.

Even if you do all that to the crazy people, there's more than enough of them to provide us with enough violent incidents to cripple society. I don't see how such treatment is any more likely to prevent more racist incidents from those people in particular. You don't really need a whole lot of them to have some terrible damage done.

Finally, if we are to believe as some say that this country is fundamentally racist and by merely being in it you become racist through osmosis, separating people isn't going to matter. It'll just make people into martyrs for no good reason. Someone like Alex Jones reached a way wider audience after he was banned from everything and turned into a victim than he'd otherwise reach.

Slavery was ended with war and violence.

 

[Erttheking]

The only way of it actually going down I can come up with is it being allowed to be proven wrong in a rational debate through logic and persuasion and to have that environment you can't be driving it underground. For example, there's this ted talk of a black musician who befriended a KKK wizard and went to their rallies and everything, ended up becoming close friends, and eventually convinced him that the KKK was wrong and he left it. If you can convince the KKK wizard, you can convince anyone.

Oh, just reason with the people who buy into pseudoscience that says that their race is superior to everyone else? One problem though. They aren't rational people. One wizard was befriended. Ok. One down, millions upon millions to go. And historically speaking, negative attitudes weren't gotten rid of because someone saw the light. More often than not, younger generations adopted more progressive ideas and the old toxic ones died out with the old generation. Dreiko? You're well-intentioned. But shockingly naive.

I never said that my approach would eradicate racism, just that it's the best option we have available to us and every other one would be even worse. The point about the wizard is that that's someone who is entrenched and bases their identity on their crazy supremacist ideology, not your run of the mill person who believes in some racist ideas while being more or less normal otherwise, so if even someone like that can be convinced, I don't get how people imply that less fanatical individuals are just beyond logic and persuasion.

It's not gonna work for everyone but it can work for more people than any other thing I can come up with.

Hate to break it to you Dreiko, people with a lot more experience than you in this subject dealt with it in ways that fall into the "worse." Laws were passed to prevent discrimination and lynching. I can only guess that you think that instead of making it illegal to string up black people and hang them until they died, we should've just talked to the people while they were breaking into the jail and dragging the black person off. I guess you think that Martin Luther King Jr. should've talked nicely to people instead of writing his harsh letter about how the white moderate who was more concerned with a negative peace in the absence of tension and how they were a bigger stumbling block to equality than the KKK could ever be. I guess you think that instead of protests and boycotting buses for racist policies, they should've asked the bus drivers nicely if they could sit in the front seat.

The fact that you act like you know better than the majority of people who acted within the civil rights movements is beyond fucking insulting. But as I've said in the past, you love to talk at great lengths about subjects that you understand very little about.

 

[Marik2]

OP I thought you wanted to be Canadian.

 

[Trunkage]

We do seem to get some of our dumbest people from canada, like lauren southern, ben shipireo and jf.

And Zontar.

Zontar was fine as long as he was speaking for himself and not from a pamphlet

 

[Hawki]

We do seem to get some of our dumbest people from canada, like lauren southern, ben shipireo and jf.

And Zontar.

Zontar was fine as long as he was speaking for himself and not from a pamphlet

Wasn't he always speaking for himself?