[Politics] Dumb People Protest and Look Dumb

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/07/06/white-nationalist-linked-proud-boys-outnumbered-counter-protesters/1661585001/

https://www.thedailybeast.com/proud-boys-dc-free-speech-rally-goes-off-with-a-whimper

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/proud-boys-all-out-dc-protests_n_5d215ec8e4b04c4814154714

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/right-wing-groups-plan-freedom-plaza-rally-amid-heavy-dc-police-presence-to-prevent-violence/2019/07/06/40309e4e-9f68-11e9-9ed4-c9089972ad5a_story.html

https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/free-speech-rally-conservatives/

Amazing how much more peaceful protests and counter-protests get when police are actually doing their jobs to keep protest groups separate and intervene to prevent rioting, isn't it?

Amazing how stupid alt-right protesters look when they're simply allowed to speak, and the news of the day isn't about rioting, isn't it?

Amazing how this has been a consistent and reliable pattern for 40 years, and only in the last two to three has it been disrupted by black bloc violence leading to an escalating and expanding cycle of violence which permits alt-right apologia in the mass media, isn't it?

Why, it's almost as if violently and preemptively disrupting protest is counter-productive and ultimately self-defeating in any conceivable way, unless your vested interest is in that cycle of violence as opposed to the defeat of far-right ideology in the marketplace of ideas.

 

[Saelune]

Stop defending Nazis. Stop blaming the people standing up to bullies instead of the bullies. Stop pretending that Nazi ideology deserves a platform for spreading their inherently violent ideology.

Anyone who wants to actually criticize violence would never defend Nazi speech.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

Stop blaming the people standing up to bullies instead of the bullies.

Funny thing about what I'm talking about. There were people there standing up to "the bullies". More than two of them for every "bully", according to the news articles. And they were perfectly able to resoundingly defeat "the bullies" without a single punch, bike lock, or milkshake, sending them prematurely skulking away aboard private buses. I have no problem with them, wholeheartedly support their right to counter-protest, support their counter-protest, and am glad they turned out as they did.

Meanwhile, the other side had high notes such as "dude whines about Tinder" and "Gavin McInnes gets stuck in plastic toy handcuffs".

Just stop and consider how stupid one has to be to get stuck in a pair of plastic toy handcuffs. That's the level of intelligence at work here. These people would be national laughingstocks as they should be, but for black bloc violence. Which is what I'm calling out here, black bloc bullshit. Don't pretend otherwise.

 

[Saelune]

Stop blaming the people standing up to bullies instead of the bullies.

Funny thing about what I'm talking about. There were people there standing up to "the bullies". More than two of them for every "bully", according to the news articles. And they were perfectly able to resoundingly defeat "the bullies" without a single punch, bike lock, or milkshake, sending them prematurely skulking away aboard private buses. I have no problem with them, wholeheartedly support their right to counter-protest, support their counter-protest, and am glad they turned out as they did.

Meanwhile, the other side had high notes such as "dude whines about Tinder" and "Gavin McInnes gets stuck in plastic toy handcuffs".

Just stop and consider how stupid one has to be to get stuck in a pair of plastic toy handcuffs. That's the level of intelligence at work here. These people would be national laughingstocks as they should be, but for black bloc violence. Which is what I'm calling out here, black bloc bullshit. Don't pretend otherwise.

No one cared about gay rights until Police got their asses kicked.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Stop blaming the people standing up to bullies instead of the bullies.

Funny thing about what I'm talking about. There were people there standing up to "the bullies". More than two of them for every "bully", according to the news articles. And they were perfectly able to resoundingly defeat "the bullies" without a single punch, bike lock, or milkshake, sending them prematurely skulking away aboard private buses. I have no problem with them, wholeheartedly support their right to counter-protest, support their counter-protest, and am glad they turned out as they did.

Meanwhile, the other side had high notes such as "dude whines about Tinder" and "Gavin McInnes gets stuck in plastic toy handcuffs".

Just stop and consider how stupid one has to be to get stuck in a pair of plastic toy handcuffs. That's the level of intelligence at work here. These people would be national laughingstocks as they should be, but for black bloc violence. Which is what I'm calling out here, black bloc bullshit. Don't pretend otherwise.

No one cared about gay rights until Police got their asses kicked.

I think you mean African American rights? The gay movement has been historically non-violent, and even when violence happens groups like the GAA and GLF were quick to denounce it, and no major change was ever felt in the wake of said violence.

Also the violence of the civil rights movement didn't actually help the cause. The majority of progress was done in backroom dealings and peaceful demonstrations.

 

[Saelune]

Stop blaming the people standing up to bullies instead of the bullies.

Funny thing about what I'm talking about. There were people there standing up to "the bullies". More than two of them for every "bully", according to the news articles. And they were perfectly able to resoundingly defeat "the bullies" without a single punch, bike lock, or milkshake, sending them prematurely skulking away aboard private buses. I have no problem with them, wholeheartedly support their right to counter-protest, support their counter-protest, and am glad they turned out as they did.

Meanwhile, the other side had high notes such as "dude whines about Tinder" and "Gavin McInnes gets stuck in plastic toy handcuffs".

Just stop and consider how stupid one has to be to get stuck in a pair of plastic toy handcuffs. That's the level of intelligence at work here. These people would be national laughingstocks as they should be, but for black bloc violence. Which is what I'm calling out here, black bloc bullshit. Don't pretend otherwise.

No one cared about gay rights until Police got their asses kicked.

I think you mean African American rights? The gay movement has been historically non-violent, and even when violence happens groups like the GAA and GLF were quick to denounce it, and no major change was ever felt in the wake of said violence.

Also the violence of the civil rights movement didn't actually help the cause. The majority of progress was done in backroom dealings and peaceful demonstrations.

Gay Rights movement existed before Stonewall. And they tried REALLY DAMN HARD to 'not offend anyone' as groups of gay men made demonstrations, careful to not have anyone be too close to eachother so as to 'not rub their gayness in anyone's faces'. No one cared.

Then NYPD raided Stonewall and the patrons had enough and fought back. Now people cared. I do not doubt many people criticized those gay people as 'violent extremists' though.

As for black rights, it took a very deadly war to end slavery. MAYBE slavery could have ended without violence against white people (cause violence against blacks was inherent in slavery) but then it might have taken till, oh, I dunno, 1950's? If even that.

If you are going to tell me violence didn't help equal rights, then I can tell you, you don't know shit about history.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

No one cared about gay rights until Police got their asses kicked.

I think you mean African American rights? The gay movement has been historically non-violent, and even when violence happens groups like the GAA and GLF were quick to denounce it, and no major change was ever felt in the wake of said violence.

Also the violence of the civil rights movement didn't actually help the cause. The majority of progress was done in backroom dealings and peaceful demonstrations.[/quote]

Oh, Dear Space Buddha No.

The Stonewall Riots [https://www.history.com/topics/gay-rights/the-stonewall-riots] where a thing.

You don't grow up in the City and have gay family members and friends and not know of the Stonewall Riots.

Cops used to blow off steam by raiding the Gay club Du Jour and beating the shit out of patrons because they would never explain why the police did that to them. Stonewall Riots were just the most visible action.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

SNIP

You miss my point. Violence did happen, sure. Violence always happens in everything ever all the time.

My point is it didn't actually make things better. Police didn't suddenly back off the Gay scene because some officers were fought. "Though the Stonewall uprising didn?t start the gay rights movement, it was a galvanizing force for LGBT political activism, leading to numerous gay rights organizations, including the Gay Liberation Front, Human Rights Campaign, GLAAD (formerly Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation), and PFLAG (formerly Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays)"

Those organizations did more than the riots ever did. Yes you can argue the riots caused those groups to form, but only 'cause the riots didn't achieve anything other than show riots cant achieve anything.

Real rights progression has always happened legislatively, slowly, and usually shadily in backrooms. The riots was just the bread/circus part of it.

 

[Saelune]

SNIP

SNIP

You miss my point. Violence did happen, sure. Violence always happens in everything ever all the time.

My point is it didn't actually make things better. Police didn't suddenly back off the Gay scene because some officers were fought. "Though the Stonewall uprising didn?t start the gay rights movement, it was a galvanizing force for LGBT political activism, leading to numerous gay rights organizations, including the Gay Liberation Front, Human Rights Campaign, GLAAD (formerly Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation), and PFLAG (formerly Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays)"

Those organizations did more than the riots ever did. Yes you can argue the riots caused those groups to form, but only 'cause the riots didn't achieve anything other than show riots cant achieve anything.

Real rights progression has always happened legislatively, slowly, and usually shadily in backrooms. The riots was just the bread/circus part of it.

Without the violence, those organizations wouldn't exist. If you want to help progress, stop defending the bigots and stop attacking the people actually seeking real change.

As long as racists criticize the people standing up to racists, as long as people condemn Antifa instead of Republican Terrorism, as long as people blame women for wanting to not be fucking raped, as long as people defend CHILDREN BEING TORTURED BY REPUBLICANS, then peaceful change wont happen.

It is the 'centrists' who are the obstacles to peaceful change.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

SNIP

SNIP

You miss my point. Violence did happen, sure. Violence always happens in everything ever all the time.

My point is it didn't actually make things better. Police didn't suddenly back off the Gay scene because some officers were fought. "Though the Stonewall uprising didn?t start the gay rights movement, it was a galvanizing force for LGBT political activism, leading to numerous gay rights organizations, including the Gay Liberation Front, Human Rights Campaign, GLAAD (formerly Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation), and PFLAG (formerly Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays)"

Those organizations did more than the riots ever did. Yes you can argue the riots caused those groups to form, but only 'cause the riots didn't achieve anything other than show riots cant achieve anything.

Real rights progression has always happened legislatively, slowly, and usually shadily in backrooms. The riots was just the bread/circus part of it.

That's a subjective thought.

One could also argue that Gays gathering and saying we're not going to cower in alleys and take it any more showed that they weren't a push over force. Not just to the rest of the world, but to themselves. That they had brothers and sisters (and fluid) who would stand with them in the face of injustice.

There's one thing to speak about how unfair things are. There's another thing to stand and soak up blows while dishing some out in response to how unfair things are. When you see someone bleed for your cause, you join them.

 

[Saelune]

You cant fix a problem if you don't know it exists. People who think 'things were better back then' are ignorant people who never knew of the problems.

And now people are tired of being reminded how fucked up everything is and want to go back to blissful ignorance. Well too fucking bad. Things don't get better until people complain. That is a fact.

The problems that exist today are rarely new, we just now give them an actual voice. Unfortunately people are also giving Nazis a voice. They did not go away for 60+ years, they just now feel like they have the ability to speak out again, and THAT is a problem.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

While it does matter to stand up, the real response is "okay let me call my lawyer"
That's something the police don't want to hear. That's interviews, dispositions, testimonies, judgements even if in the police favor that takes years to resolve and costs millions. That's the real pressure for change - legality and cost.

SNIP

I'm not defending Trump, I'm saying if you want to make a difference understand what actually works. Pulling out your sword and yelling "CHARGE!" only makes you feel like a hero, but its not actually heroic. You want to do something for those kids? Start a law firm, hire lawyers, take on the kids pro-bono, become their voice. Holding court online and pretending to go to war won't help.

 

[Saelune]

SNIP

While it does matter to stand up, the real response is "okay let me call my lawyer"
That's something the police don't want to hear. That's interviews, dispositions, testimonies, judgements even if in the police favor that takes years to resolve and costs millions. That's the real pressure for change - legality and cost.

SNIP

I'm not defending Trump, I'm saying if you want to make a difference understand what actually works. Pulling out your sword and yelling "CHARGE!" only makes you feel like a hero, but its not actually heroic. You want to do something for those kids? Start a law firm, hire lawyers, take on the kids pro-bono, become their voice. Holding court online and pretending to go to war won't help.

Or I dunno, maybe people could vote against the child torturer/rapist/murderer in 2020, then the new person could abolish those camps, since 'violence is wrong' so it would be wrong for people to come together and literally tear down the camps, right? Oh and Trump should go to jail for being a child torturer/rapist/murderer.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

Then NYPD raided Stonewall and the patrons had enough and fought back. Now people cared. I do not doubt many people criticized those gay people as 'violent extremists' though.

That's definitely a take on Stonewall, I'll give you that.

Never mind the Genovese family's role in all this, the violence by patrons and protesters was wildly exaggerated to propagandize against the gay community, that actions on the protesters' part were mostly vandalism and civil disobedience, and a huge chunk of the "liberation" part of "gay liberation" (as well as the second prong of the GAA's and GLF's mission) was liberation from the mob.

You'd think the first hint would be the words that actually started the riot: "they [Tony Lauria] didn't pay off the cops".

That moment when you internalize and push fifty-year-old anti-gay propaganda used to justify violence against the LGBT community, to justify violent counter-protest today in the name of the LGBT community.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

While it does matter to stand up, the real response is "okay let me call my lawyer"
That's something the police don't want to hear. That's interviews, dispositions, testimonies, judgements even if in the police favor that takes years to resolve and costs millions. That's the real pressure for change - legality and cost.

SNIP

I'm not defending Trump, I'm saying if you want to make a difference understand what actually works. Pulling out your sword and yelling "CHARGE!" only makes you feel like a hero, but its not actually heroic. You want to do something for those kids? Start a law firm, hire lawyers, take on the kids pro-bono, become their voice. Holding court online and pretending to go to war won't help.

Or I dunno, maybe people could vote against the child torturer/rapist/murderer in 2020, then the new person could abolish those camps, since 'violence is wrong' so it would be wrong for people to come together and literally tear down the camps, right? Oh and Trump should go to jail for being a child torturer/rapist/murderer.

I agree. Are you going to move out of New York to a swing state so your vote will matter more?

 

[Saelune]

Then NYPD raided Stonewall and the patrons had enough and fought back. Now people cared. I do not doubt many people criticized those gay people as 'violent extremists' though.

That's definitely a take on Stonewall, I'll give you that.

You are actively trying to spin history with fake facts. You are actively proving why I should never trust your word.

Never mind the Genovese family's role in all this, the violence by patrons and protesters was wildly exaggerated to propagandize against the gay community, that actions on the protesters' part were mostly vandalism and civil disobedience, and a huge chunk of the "liberation" part of "gay liberation" (as well as the second prong of the GAA's and GLF's mission) was liberation from the mob.

You'd think the first hint would be the words that actually started the riot: "they [Tony Lauria] didn't pay off the cops".

That moment when you internalize and push fifty-year-old anti-gay propaganda used to justify violence against the LGBT community, to justify violent counter-protest today in the name of the LGBT community.

You are trying to justify Anti-LGBT sentiment with your distortion of history and your dismissal of the LGBT rights movement.

Stop pushing your 'alternative facts' to justify condemning actual civil rights activists.

 

[Saelune]

SNIP

While it does matter to stand up, the real response is "okay let me call my lawyer"
That's something the police don't want to hear. That's interviews, dispositions, testimonies, judgements even if in the police favor that takes years to resolve and costs millions. That's the real pressure for change - legality and cost.

SNIP

I'm not defending Trump, I'm saying if you want to make a difference understand what actually works. Pulling out your sword and yelling "CHARGE!" only makes you feel like a hero, but its not actually heroic. You want to do something for those kids? Start a law firm, hire lawyers, take on the kids pro-bono, become their voice. Holding court online and pretending to go to war won't help.

Or I dunno, maybe people could vote against the child torturer/rapist/murderer in 2020, then the new person could abolish those camps, since 'violence is wrong' so it would be wrong for people to come together and literally tear down the camps, right? Oh and Trump should go to jail for being a child torturer/rapist/murderer.

I agree. Are you going to move out of New York to a swing state so your vote will matter more?

I barely feel safe here, let alone any place that actively encourages right-wing 'values'.

In case you havent noticed, it is not safe in the US for LGBT or non-white people.

 

[Marik2]

SNIP

While it does matter to stand up, the real response is "okay let me call my lawyer"
That's something the police don't want to hear. That's interviews, dispositions, testimonies, judgements even if in the police favor that takes years to resolve and costs millions. That's the real pressure for change - legality and cost.

SNIP

I'm not defending Trump, I'm saying if you want to make a difference understand what actually works. Pulling out your sword and yelling "CHARGE!" only makes you feel like a hero, but its not actually heroic. You want to do something for those kids? Start a law firm, hire lawyers, take on the kids pro-bono, become their voice. Holding court online and pretending to go to war won't help.

Or I dunno, maybe people could vote against the child torturer/rapist/murderer in 2020, then the new person could abolish those camps, since 'violence is wrong' so it would be wrong for people to come together and literally tear down the camps, right? Oh and Trump should go to jail for being a child torturer/rapist/murderer.

I agree. Are you going to move out of New York to a swing state so your vote will matter more?

I barely feel safe here, let alone any place that actively encourages right-wing 'values'.

In case you havent noticed, it is not safe in the US for LGBT or non-white people.

You should probably move to Canada, if you don't feel safe in your home. It's basically a liberal socialist paradise, and refugees are actually moving there, instead of staying in America.

 

[Leg End]

In case you havent noticed, it is not safe in the US for LGBT or non-white people.

Speaking as a sexually :thinking: man of latin/dubious native american heritage, I feel pretty good in that regard. Speaking as a rural Californian, of course.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

SNIP

While it does matter to stand up, the real response is "okay let me call my lawyer"
That's something the police don't want to hear. That's interviews, dispositions, testimonies, judgements even if in the police favor that takes years to resolve and costs millions. That's the real pressure for change - legality and cost.

Lawyer? My dude, just being who they WERE was illegal.

At the time, homosexual acts remained illegal in every state except Illinois, and bars and restaurants could get shut down for having gay employees or serving gay patrons. Most gay bars and clubs in New York at the time (including the Stonewall) were operated by the Mafia, who paid corruptible police officers to look the other way and blackmailed wealthy gay patrons by threatening to ?out? them.

(Source [https://www.history.com/news/stonewall-riots-timeline])

The Homosexuality Conduct Act was struck down as recently as 2003 [https://www.cnn.com/2015/06/19/us/lgbt-rights-milestones-fast-facts/index.html].

Like... going to a lawyer and saying "people are treating me wrongly due to me being gay" was tantamount of saying "people are treating me wrongly because I stole a lot of stuff". You were confessing to an actual crime and asked a Lawyer to represent you.

You should probably move to Canada, if you don't feel safe in your home. It's basically a liberal socialist paradise, and refugees are actually moving there, instead of staying in America.

Hey, then I won't be alone. Hopefully in two years, this place will be in my rearview mirror.