[Politics] Dumb People Protest and Look Dumb

PsychedelicDiamond

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I'm not exactly a love and tolerance leftist and I've made this quite clear, I think hippies are the worst thing that ever happened to the western left, but you know what? When non-violence is enough to get the job done, that's great. Wonderful. The way it should be. I agree that violence is never something we should be comfortable with. But you're living in a dream world if you think it's never necessary. It doesn't work that way, it never has worked that way, no society ever managed to successfully tolerate its enemies to death.

Anti-fascism and anti-fascist violence isn't some unhealthy overreaction. It's society's immune system kicking into gear to deal with a threat that couldn't be dealt with through conventional means. Considering how succesfully fascists subverted not only the political establishment but also large parts of the media and law enforcement (the latter of which also represents a type of violence, if one that we take for granted) these conventional means are simply not a viable option.

Sometimes protest is enough. Sometimes non compliance is enough. Sometimes boycott is enough. And sometimes it isn't. And sometimes it's necessary to remind them that they should be afraid, not us.
 

Eacaraxe_v1legacy

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Oh thank you Dale Earnhardt and Baby Jesus for the bounty I am about to receive.

Saelune said:
You are actively trying to spin history with fake facts.
Famed fake news purveyor New York Times [https://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/26/opinion/26truscott.html]:

...In fact, the Stonewall operation was the work of a Police Department deputy inspector, Seymour Pine, and officers from the morals unit, and they carried it out without the knowledge of the officers of the local police precinct, whom they suspected of taking payoffs from the Stonewall and other Mafia-run gay bars in the Village.

Deputy Inspector Pine had two stated reasons for the raid: the Stonewall was selling liquor without a license, which it was, and it was being used by a Mafia blackmail ring that was setting up gay patrons who worked on Wall Street, which also seems likely.

The owner of the Stonewall, Tony Lauria, was reputed to be a front man for Matty Ianniello (known as ?Matty the Horse?), a capo in the Genovese crime family who oversaw a string of clubs in the city. New York?s gay-bar scene at the time was a corrupt system apparently designed to benefit mobster owners, who served watered-down drinks at inflated prices, often made with ill-gotten liquor from truck hijackings.
Notorious Russian bot front PBS [https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/stonewall-why-did-mafia-own-bar/]:

Already a strong presence in New York, members of the Mafia saw a business opportunity in catering to the otherwise shunned gay population. By the mid-1960s, the Genovese crime family controlled the majority of gay bars in Greenwich Village, a neighborhood in southern Manhattan that was quickly becoming a hub for the city's burgeoning gay community. In 1966, young Genovese family member Tony Lauria purchased the Stonewall Inn, then a low-earning 'straight' bar and restaurant. "Fat Tony," as he was known, renovated at low cost and reopened the Christopher Street club as a gay bar, controlling everything from the jukebox to the cigarettes. He bribed New York's Sixth Police Precinct with around $1,200 a month to turn a blind eye to the goings on at the establishment.

[...]

Stonewall's owners also reportedly engaged in extortion. Employees singled out wealthy patrons who were not public about their sexuality, and blackmailed them for large sums of money with the threat of being 'outed.' This practice eventually became the most profitable aspect of the Mafia's club management.
Daily Beast [https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-the-mafia-muscled-in-and-controlled-the-stonewall-inn]? More like Daily Stormer, amirite or amirite?

A pamphlet soon appeared urging gay New Yorkers to ?get the Mafia and the cops out of gay bars.? Its author was Craig Rodwell, owner of the Oscar Wilde Memorial Bookshop in Greenwich Village, and an early proponent of the need to stand up to the police and the Genovese crime family, which at that time controlled most Greenwich Village gay bars, including the Stonewall Inn.
It?s a measure of the courage displayed by the denizens of the Stonewall and their supporters that they were, in effect, taking on two gangs: the Mafia and the New York Police Department. That?s because back then the NYPD often functioned as a legally sanctioned gang that harassed gay men and women.

[...]

And the mob knew how to eliminate any competition. ?They knew if they got the right police in their pocket, the police could shut down any bar,? Hortis says. If that failed, threats always worked. A member of ?the family? would show up to either shut down a competing gay bar or just take it over. ?Ultimately it?s the threat of violence that backs up everything,? Hortis stresses.

[...]

Then there was the potential for blackmail. New York City school teachers, for example, would lose their jobs if they were arrested in a police raid on a gay bar or were otherwise publicly outed.
Federal employees also were vulnerable, as were closeted celebrities and wealthy Wall Street types.
In retrospect, it was inevitable that the Genovese crime family would run the Village?s gay bars because the Village was the Genoveses? home turf.
?That was their backyard,? Hortis explains. ?So you have a vulnerable, illegal industry in the backyard of the Mafia. Of course they?re going to exploit that?of course they?re going to take advantage of it and try to make money off of it.?
The Genovese family was in the gay bar business long before the Stonewall. In fact, Vito Genovese?s second wife, Anna, was a partner in several legendary lower Manhattan drag bars of the ?30s, including the Howdy Club, the 181 Club, and Club 84, whose patrons included Greta Garbo and Judy Garland.

[...]

"When the State forced gay and transgender people into the closet,? Hortis says, ?they were driven into the clutches of organized crime. LGBT people were fighting not only the State, but exploitation by the Mafia. The lesson is that there will always be gay people in every society. When the State tries to suppress them, they won't just disappear; the harms to them will only be compounded."
Nobody knows vice like Vice [https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/gqmym3/how-the-mafia-once-controlled-the-new-york-gay-scene-616].

The Mafia controlled most gay bars due to their illegal status, and extracted a monetary premium from the gay community. This recognized both the legal risk the Mob was taking and the near-monopoly status it enjoyed. After all, where else were gay folks going to meet? There were often high cover charges and minimum drink requirements. Moreover, gay men were at risk of blackmail from their Mob overlords. The Mob's exploitation of the gay community was among the reasons for the 1969 protests outside the Stonewall Inn. Indeed, after the Stonewall protests, once of the principal goals of the activist groups such as Gay Activists Alliance and Gay Liberation Front was to get organized crime out of the gay bars.

[...]

The gay bars were part of the vice rackets, and that also included the flesh trade. For example, Ed "the Skull" Murphy, a former pro wrestler who became a gay bar bouncer, had a proclivity for young boys, and he pimped them out through bars at which he worked. New York law enforcement investigated the mob's role in running gay bars and pimping underage boys pursuant to Operation Together in the mid 1970s but according to Assistant District Attorney Paul Flaxman "top brass" shut it down right before the indictment stage because it implicated powerful people in politics, business, and society.
I'm surprised they covered it because it's not about Hitler's Secret Whatever, but hey, here's the earlier-linked History Channel [https://www.history.com/news/how-the-mob-helped-establish-nycs-gay-bar-scene] article too. I guess.

To operate its gay bars, the Mafia greased the palms of the NYPD. ?Fat Tony,? for one, paid New York?s 6th Precinct approximately $1,200 a week, in exchange for the police agreeing to turn a blind eye to the ?indecent conduct? occurring behind closed doors.

Not that the police didn?t still raid the LGBT establishments. But first they would tip off the owners, who told them the best time to come by. Raids often occurred in the early afternoon, when few customers were present, so businesses had enough time to resume normal operations by night. David Carter explains in his book Stonewall: The Riots That Sparked the Gay Revolution, that during a typical raid, bar owners would change the lights from blue to white, warning customers to stop dancing and drinking. Patrons were lined up and required to show identification; if they didn?t have any, they could be arrested. Men were hauled in for dressing in drag and women for wearing less than three pieces of traditional ?feminine? clothing. Sometimes the cops even went to the extreme measure of sending female officers into the bathroom to verify people?s gender.

[...]

The Mob designed the operations to maximize profits?from the cheap, watered-down alcohol sold at high mark-ups to the jukebox and bootleg cigarettes. In addition, says Phillip Crawford Jr. in his book, The Mafia and the Gays, the mob also plied the gay flesh trade, with bouncers ?pimping out? patrons. But while the NYPD attempted to crack down on Mafia-run prostitution in the mid 1970s, during something known as ?Operation Together,? the effort was eventually shut down in 1977. Apparently, too many high-powered individuals?including Mafia members, police officers and big Hollywood names?were implicated as clients.

Some scholars have argued the infamous Stonewall riots that sparked the nationwide LGBT movement were as much a resistance against the mob?s exploitation of the gay community as they were a struggle against police harassment and discriminatory laws. Indeed, a handwritten message in chalk on a boarded-up window of the Stonewall Inn after the 1969 riots read, ?Gay Prohibition Corupt$ Cop$ Feed$ Mafia.? Two of the main gay-rights organizations that came out of the riots, the Gay Activists Alliance and Gay Liberation Front, actively championed getting organized crime out of gay bars.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Saelune said:
Silentpony said:
Saelune said:
Silentpony said:
ObsidianJones said:
While it does matter to stand up, the real response is "okay let me call my lawyer"
That's something the police don't want to hear. That's interviews, dispositions, testimonies, judgements even if in the police favor that takes years to resolve and costs millions. That's the real pressure for change - legality and cost.

Saelune said:
I'm not defending Trump, I'm saying if you want to make a difference understand what actually works. Pulling out your sword and yelling "CHARGE!" only makes you feel like a hero, but its not actually heroic. You want to do something for those kids? Start a law firm, hire lawyers, take on the kids pro-bono, become their voice. Holding court online and pretending to go to war won't help.
Or I dunno, maybe people could vote against the child torturer/rapist/murderer in 2020, then the new person could abolish those camps, since 'violence is wrong' so it would be wrong for people to come together and literally tear down the camps, right? Oh and Trump should go to jail for being a child torturer/rapist/murderer.
I agree. Are you going to move out of New York to a swing state so your vote will matter more?
I barely feel safe here, let alone any place that actively encourages right-wing 'values'.

In case you havent noticed, it is not safe in the US for LGBT or non-white people.
So you want the rest of us to go to war, to violently resist, to rise up and stop Donald Trump, to risk our lives and freedom...all the while you're unwilling to just move to Pennsylvania and just vote?
 

Saelune

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Silentpony said:
Saelune said:
Silentpony said:
Saelune said:
Silentpony said:
ObsidianJones said:
While it does matter to stand up, the real response is "okay let me call my lawyer"
That's something the police don't want to hear. That's interviews, dispositions, testimonies, judgements even if in the police favor that takes years to resolve and costs millions. That's the real pressure for change - legality and cost.

Saelune said:
I'm not defending Trump, I'm saying if you want to make a difference understand what actually works. Pulling out your sword and yelling "CHARGE!" only makes you feel like a hero, but its not actually heroic. You want to do something for those kids? Start a law firm, hire lawyers, take on the kids pro-bono, become their voice. Holding court online and pretending to go to war won't help.
Or I dunno, maybe people could vote against the child torturer/rapist/murderer in 2020, then the new person could abolish those camps, since 'violence is wrong' so it would be wrong for people to come together and literally tear down the camps, right? Oh and Trump should go to jail for being a child torturer/rapist/murderer.
I agree. Are you going to move out of New York to a swing state so your vote will matter more?
I barely feel safe here, let alone any place that actively encourages right-wing 'values'.

In case you havent noticed, it is not safe in the US for LGBT or non-white people.
So you want the rest of us to go to war, to violently resist, to rise up and stop Donald Trump, to risk our lives and freedom...all the while you're unwilling to just move to Pennsylvania and just vote?
I want people to vote against Trump. Its Republicans who want non-soldiers who refuse to fight and die for this country to tell others to fight and die for them.
 

Saelune

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Eacaraxe said:
Oh thank you Dale Earnhardt and Baby Jesus for the bounty I am about to receive.

Saelune said:
You are actively trying to spin history with fake facts.
Famed fake news purveyor New York Times [https://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/26/opinion/26truscott.html]:

...In fact, the Stonewall operation was the work of a Police Department deputy inspector, Seymour Pine, and officers from the morals unit, and they carried it out without the knowledge of the officers of the local police precinct, whom they suspected of taking payoffs from the Stonewall and other Mafia-run gay bars in the Village.

Deputy Inspector Pine had two stated reasons for the raid: the Stonewall was selling liquor without a license, which it was, and it was being used by a Mafia blackmail ring that was setting up gay patrons who worked on Wall Street, which also seems likely.

The owner of the Stonewall, Tony Lauria, was reputed to be a front man for Matty Ianniello (known as ?Matty the Horse?), a capo in the Genovese crime family who oversaw a string of clubs in the city. New York?s gay-bar scene at the time was a corrupt system apparently designed to benefit mobster owners, who served watered-down drinks at inflated prices, often made with ill-gotten liquor from truck hijackings.
Notorious Russian bot front PBS [https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/stonewall-why-did-mafia-own-bar/]:

Already a strong presence in New York, members of the Mafia saw a business opportunity in catering to the otherwise shunned gay population. By the mid-1960s, the Genovese crime family controlled the majority of gay bars in Greenwich Village, a neighborhood in southern Manhattan that was quickly becoming a hub for the city's burgeoning gay community. In 1966, young Genovese family member Tony Lauria purchased the Stonewall Inn, then a low-earning 'straight' bar and restaurant. "Fat Tony," as he was known, renovated at low cost and reopened the Christopher Street club as a gay bar, controlling everything from the jukebox to the cigarettes. He bribed New York's Sixth Police Precinct with around $1,200 a month to turn a blind eye to the goings on at the establishment.

[...]

Stonewall's owners also reportedly engaged in extortion. Employees singled out wealthy patrons who were not public about their sexuality, and blackmailed them for large sums of money with the threat of being 'outed.' This practice eventually became the most profitable aspect of the Mafia's club management.
Daily Beast [https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-the-mafia-muscled-in-and-controlled-the-stonewall-inn]? More like Daily Stormer, amirite or amirite?

A pamphlet soon appeared urging gay New Yorkers to ?get the Mafia and the cops out of gay bars.? Its author was Craig Rodwell, owner of the Oscar Wilde Memorial Bookshop in Greenwich Village, and an early proponent of the need to stand up to the police and the Genovese crime family, which at that time controlled most Greenwich Village gay bars, including the Stonewall Inn.
It?s a measure of the courage displayed by the denizens of the Stonewall and their supporters that they were, in effect, taking on two gangs: the Mafia and the New York Police Department. That?s because back then the NYPD often functioned as a legally sanctioned gang that harassed gay men and women.

[...]

And the mob knew how to eliminate any competition. ?They knew if they got the right police in their pocket, the police could shut down any bar,? Hortis says. If that failed, threats always worked. A member of ?the family? would show up to either shut down a competing gay bar or just take it over. ?Ultimately it?s the threat of violence that backs up everything,? Hortis stresses.

[...]

Then there was the potential for blackmail. New York City school teachers, for example, would lose their jobs if they were arrested in a police raid on a gay bar or were otherwise publicly outed.
Federal employees also were vulnerable, as were closeted celebrities and wealthy Wall Street types.
In retrospect, it was inevitable that the Genovese crime family would run the Village?s gay bars because the Village was the Genoveses? home turf.
?That was their backyard,? Hortis explains. ?So you have a vulnerable, illegal industry in the backyard of the Mafia. Of course they?re going to exploit that?of course they?re going to take advantage of it and try to make money off of it.?
The Genovese family was in the gay bar business long before the Stonewall. In fact, Vito Genovese?s second wife, Anna, was a partner in several legendary lower Manhattan drag bars of the ?30s, including the Howdy Club, the 181 Club, and Club 84, whose patrons included Greta Garbo and Judy Garland.

[...]

"When the State forced gay and transgender people into the closet,? Hortis says, ?they were driven into the clutches of organized crime. LGBT people were fighting not only the State, but exploitation by the Mafia. The lesson is that there will always be gay people in every society. When the State tries to suppress them, they won't just disappear; the harms to them will only be compounded."
Nobody knows vice like Vice [https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/gqmym3/how-the-mafia-once-controlled-the-new-york-gay-scene-616].

The Mafia controlled most gay bars due to their illegal status, and extracted a monetary premium from the gay community. This recognized both the legal risk the Mob was taking and the near-monopoly status it enjoyed. After all, where else were gay folks going to meet? There were often high cover charges and minimum drink requirements. Moreover, gay men were at risk of blackmail from their Mob overlords. The Mob's exploitation of the gay community was among the reasons for the 1969 protests outside the Stonewall Inn. Indeed, after the Stonewall protests, once of the principal goals of the activist groups such as Gay Activists Alliance and Gay Liberation Front was to get organized crime out of the gay bars.

[...]

The gay bars were part of the vice rackets, and that also included the flesh trade. For example, Ed "the Skull" Murphy, a former pro wrestler who became a gay bar bouncer, had a proclivity for young boys, and he pimped them out through bars at which he worked. New York law enforcement investigated the mob's role in running gay bars and pimping underage boys pursuant to Operation Together in the mid 1970s but according to Assistant District Attorney Paul Flaxman "top brass" shut it down right before the indictment stage because it implicated powerful people in politics, business, and society.
I'm surprised they covered it because it's not about Hitler's Secret Whatever, but hey, here's the earlier-linked History Channel [https://www.history.com/news/how-the-mob-helped-establish-nycs-gay-bar-scene] article too. I guess.

To operate its gay bars, the Mafia greased the palms of the NYPD. ?Fat Tony,? for one, paid New York?s 6th Precinct approximately $1,200 a week, in exchange for the police agreeing to turn a blind eye to the ?indecent conduct? occurring behind closed doors.

Not that the police didn?t still raid the LGBT establishments. But first they would tip off the owners, who told them the best time to come by. Raids often occurred in the early afternoon, when few customers were present, so businesses had enough time to resume normal operations by night. David Carter explains in his book Stonewall: The Riots That Sparked the Gay Revolution, that during a typical raid, bar owners would change the lights from blue to white, warning customers to stop dancing and drinking. Patrons were lined up and required to show identification; if they didn?t have any, they could be arrested. Men were hauled in for dressing in drag and women for wearing less than three pieces of traditional ?feminine? clothing. Sometimes the cops even went to the extreme measure of sending female officers into the bathroom to verify people?s gender.

[...]

The Mob designed the operations to maximize profits?from the cheap, watered-down alcohol sold at high mark-ups to the jukebox and bootleg cigarettes. In addition, says Phillip Crawford Jr. in his book, The Mafia and the Gays, the mob also plied the gay flesh trade, with bouncers ?pimping out? patrons. But while the NYPD attempted to crack down on Mafia-run prostitution in the mid 1970s, during something known as ?Operation Together,? the effort was eventually shut down in 1977. Apparently, too many high-powered individuals?including Mafia members, police officers and big Hollywood names?were implicated as clients.

Some scholars have argued the infamous Stonewall riots that sparked the nationwide LGBT movement were as much a resistance against the mob?s exploitation of the gay community as they were a struggle against police harassment and discriminatory laws. Indeed, a handwritten message in chalk on a boarded-up window of the Stonewall Inn after the 1969 riots read, ?Gay Prohibition Corupt$ Cop$ Feed$ Mafia.? Two of the main gay-rights organizations that came out of the riots, the Gay Activists Alliance and Gay Liberation Front, actively championed getting organized crime out of gay bars.
...And this proves me wrong...how?
 

Saelune

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Leg End said:
Saelune said:
In case you havent noticed, it is not safe in the US for LGBT or non-white people.
Speaking as a sexually :thinking: man of latin/dubious native american heritage, I feel pretty good in that regard. Speaking as a rural Californian, of course.
I am sure Milo and Ben Carson and Jenner feel safe too.
 

Leg End

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Saelune said:
I am sure Milo
Pretty sure Antifa wants to lynch him.
and Ben Carson
Not sure why this specific example.
and Jenner feel safe too.
I think Jenner is the one making people feel unsafe with that driving. Why Jenner specifically though? Is it a money thing, or?
 

Saelune

Trump put kids in cages!
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Leg End said:
Saelune said:
I am sure Milo
Pretty sure Antifa wants to lynch him.
and Ben Carson
Not sure why this specific example.
and Jenner feel safe too.
I think Jenner is the one making people feel unsafe with that driving. Why Jenner specifically though? Is it a money thing, or?
So you don't feel threatened by Antifa. Good to know.

Ben Carson is a black Republican.

Jenner is anti-LGBT, despite being LGBT.
 

Leg End

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Saelune said:
So you don't feel threatened by Antifa. Good to know.
Not really, because them trying to riot in my neck of the woods would get the armed response of every single person living within a mile. Feels pretty nice living in an area where neighbors look out for each other. My point though is that he's facing actual danger from the supposed leftists.
Ben Carson is a black Republican.
And that negates people wanting to lynch him how?
Jenner is anti-LGBT, despite being LGBT.
...You're definitely going to have to explain that one to me.
 

Saelune

Trump put kids in cages!
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Leg End said:
Saelune said:
So you don't feel threatened by Antifa. Good to know.
Not really, because them trying to riot in my neck of the woods would get the armed response of every single person living within a mile. Feels pretty nice living in an area where neighbors look out for each other. My point though is that he's facing actual danger from the supposed leftists.
Ben Carson is a black Republican.
And that negates people wanting to lynch him how?
Jenner is anti-LGBT, despite being LGBT.
...You're definitely going to have to explain that one to me.
Neither of us said anyone wanted to lynch Ben Carson.

Jenner is a Republican, and the Republican party have put in a ton of effort into opposing LGBT rights. It is one of their most popular political platforms. That's not an opinion, that is an observation.
 

Leg End

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Saelune said:
Neither of us said anyone wanted to lynch Ben Carson.
I'm saying it, because people wanting to lynch him for his race are probably wanting to do so regardless of his opinions. Thankfully, such people are a minority. Downside, more people want to lynch him for being a Republican.
Jenner is a Republican, and the Republican party have put in a ton of effort into opposing LGBT rights. It is one of their most popular political platforms. That's not an opinion, that is an observation.
Yet she's clearly pro-LGBT and has denounced Trump for his stances. Don't gotta agree with everything a party does to agree with them on a lot of other shit. You of all people should know that by now.
 

Saelune

Trump put kids in cages!
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Leg End said:
Saelune said:
Neither of us said anyone wanted to lynch Ben Carson.
I'm saying it, because people wanting to lynch him for his race are probably wanting to do so regardless of his opinions. Thankfully, such people are a minority. Downside, more people want to lynch him for being a Republican.
Jenner is a Republican, and the Republican party have put in a ton of effort into opposing LGBT rights. It is one of their most popular political platforms. That's not an opinion, that is an observation.
Yet she's clearly pro-LGBT and has denounced Trump for his stances. Don't gotta agree with everything a party does to agree with them on a lot of other shit. You of all people should know that by now.
Citation needed on that first part.

They will have to prove it by opposing the Republicans in 2020. Only then will I think otherwise of them. If you vote for people who are anti-LGBT, YOU are anti-LGBT.
 

DarthCoercis

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Saelune said:
It's almost amusing that you're just as much of a totalitarian as the people you rage about, yet are not self-aware enough to recognise it.

Almost.
 

Saelune

Trump put kids in cages!
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DarthCoercis said:
Saelune said:
It's almost amusing that you're just as much of a totalitarian as the people you rage about, yet are not self-aware enough to recognise it.

Almost.
You never responded to my PM from like, last year. Like, you never even looked at it.

Also voting for something is the most literally direct way to support something, if literally voting for something doesn't count as supporting it, then what does?
 

Eacaraxe_v1legacy

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Saelune said:
...And this proves me wrong...how?
You're pushing the stonewall myth, which is actually an historically-revisionist thermonuclear take that underestimates the level of victimization suffered by the LGBT community at the time and the institutional forces arrayed against them, giving the Stonewall protesters less credit than they deserve, and calling the actual background of it anti-LGBT fake news? If you're only looking at the actions of the NYPD you're not even telling half the story, and you're not even telling the important part of the story.

Stonewall wasn't just a protest against anti-gay laws or police raids. They were protesting mob exploitation of the gay community, and police corruption as well. That's why the gathered crowd threw fistfuls of coins at the cops, and why the words that actually kicked off the riot were "they didn't pay off the cops". Because the cops were fucking dirty, and the raid was thought to be a shakedown.

Stonewall was a mob property, and the mob was blackmailing patrons, forcing them into prostitution, running child sex trafficking out of it, and paying off the cops to look the other way and stage fake raids to maintain appearances. Meanwhile, the Wagner mayoral admin was eager to look tough on organized crime during an election year, and was targeting gay bars because they made for easy, politically-acceptable, mob targets.

And indeed, the level of violence at Stonewall by the members of the gay community has been greatly exaggerated. The NYT article I linked earlier was a retrospective by the Village Voice writer who originally covered the story. Here's his original article [https://www.villagevoice.com/2010/07/21/stonewall-gay-power-comes-to-sheridan-square/] -- mind the language, it was written in '69 after all.

It began as a small raid ? only two patrolmen, two detectives, and two policewomen were involved. But as the patrons trapped inside were released one by one, a crowd started to gather on the street. It was initially a festive gathering, composed mostly of Stonewall boys who were waiting around for friends still inside or to see what was going to happen. Cheers would go up as favorites would emerge from the door, strike a pose and swish by the detective with a ?Hello there, fella.? The stars were in their element. Wrists were limp, hair was primped, and reactions to the applause were classic. ?I gave them the gay power bit, and they loved it, girls.? ?Have you seen Maxine? Where is my wife ? I told her not to go far.?

Suddenly the paddywagon arrived and the mood of the crowd changed. Three of the more blatant queens ? in full drag ? were loaded inside, along with the bartender and doorman, to a chorus of catcalls and boos from the crowd. A cry went up to push the paddywagon over, but it drove away before anything could happen. With its exit, the action waned momentarily. The next person to come out was a dyke, and she put up a struggle ? from car to door to car again. It was at that moment that the scene became explosive. Limp wrists were forgotten. Beer cans and bottles were heaved at the windows, and a rain of coins descended on the cops. At the height of the action, a bearded figure was plucked from the crowd and dragged inside. It was Dave Van Ronk, who had come from the Lion?s Head to see what was going on. He was charged with throwing an object at the police.

Three cops were necessary to get Van Ronk away from the crowd and into the Stonewall. The exit left no cops on the street, and almost by signal the crowd erupted into cobblestone and bottle heaving. The reaction was solid: they were pissed. The trashcan I was standing on was nearly yanked out from under me as a kid tried to grab it for use in the window smashing melee. From nowhere came an uprooted parking meter ? used as a battering ram on the Stonewall door. I heard several cries of ?Let?s get some gas,? but the blaze of flame which soon appeared in the window of the Stonewall was still a shock. As the wood barrier behind the glass was beaten open, the cops inside turned a firehose on the crowd. Several kids took the opportunity to cavort in the spray, and their momentary glee served to stave off what was rapidly becoming a full-scale attack.

[...]

The real action Saturday was that night in the street. Friday night?s crowd had returned and was being led in ?gay power? cheers by a group of gay cheerleaders. ?We are the Stonewall girls/ We wear our hair in curls/ We have no underwear/ We show our pubic hairs!? The crowd was gathered across the street from the Stonewall and was growing with additions of onlookers, Eastsiders, and rough street people who saw a chance for a little action. Though dress had changed from Friday night?s gayery to Saturday night street clothes, the scene was a command performance for queers. If Friday night had been pick-up night, Saturday was date night. Hand-holding, kissing, and posing accented each of the cheers with a homosexual liberation that had appeared only fleetingly on the street before. One-liners were as practiced as if they had ben used for years. ?I just want you all to know,? quipped a platinum blond with obvious glee, ?that sometimes being homosexual is a big pain in the ass.? Another allowed as how he had become a ?left-deviationist.? And on and on.

[...]

The people on the street were not to be coerced. ?Let?s go down the street and see what?s happening, girls,??someone yelled. And down the street went the crowd, smack into the Tactical Patrol Force, who had been called earlier to disperse the crowd and were walking west on Christopher from Sixth Avenue. Formed in a line, the TPF swept the crowd back to the corner of Waverly Place where they stopped. A stagnant situation there brought on some gay tomfoolery in the form of a chorus line facing the helmeted and club-carrying cops. Just as the line got into a full kick routine, the TPF advanced again and cleared the crowd of screaming gay powerites down Christopher to Seventh Avenue. The street and park were then held from both ends, and no one was allowed to enter ? naturally causing a fall-off in normal Saturday night business, even at the straight Lion?s Head and 55. The TPF positions in and around the square were held with only minor incident ? one busted head and a number of scattered arrest ? while the cops amused themselves by arbitrarily breaking up small groups of people up and down the avenue.
To that you can add this firsthand account [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/what-stonewall-means-to-the-people-who-were-there].

Stonewall has become a symbol of the LGBTQ rights movement, but its storied history has also been mythologized in some ways. Jay said the violence at the Stonewall riots was not as intense as has been portrayed.

She said the accounts of what happened at the Stonewall have been greatly exaggerated. ?The window was intact. The door was intact. There were no parking meters lying around in the street. I didn?t see any overturned cars or burnt cars. But there was a lot of anger. And people were just talking and shouting and saying, ?What do we do? What do we do??? ?But people were not agreeing with the Mattachine sentiment anymore that we should just go home and be good and eventually straight people would accept us,? said Jay.
However real the violence by police, the two-day all-out Jets vs. Sharks street brawl it's made out to be today it was not. We're discussing a protest that can be summarized by the showdown of riot cop phalanxes versus...impromptu chorus lines.

 

Leg End

Romans 12:18
Oct 24, 2010
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Saelune said:
Citation needed on that first part.
The first first part or the second first part? People still wanting to lynch him for his race or that more people want to lynch him for being a Republican?
They will have to prove it by opposing the Republicans in 2020. Only then will I think otherwise of them. If you vote for people who are anti-LGBT, YOU are anti-LGBT.
So you're anti-Free Speech, right?
 

Saelune

Trump put kids in cages!
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Leg End said:
Saelune said:
Citation needed on that first part.
The first first part or the second first part? People still wanting to lynch him for his race or that more people want to lynch him for being a Republican?
They will have to prove it by opposing the Republicans in 2020. Only then will I think otherwise of them. If you vote for people who are anti-LGBT, YOU are anti-LGBT.
So you're anti-Free Speech, right?
I agree that the KKK and Nazis want to lynch Ben Carson, but need citation on others.

I am for the right and freedom to openly criticize those in power without fear of reprisal. I am against Nazis spreading their ideology. That is my views on speech and its freedoms.

Few people who claim to support free-speech actually do. That goes for both sides. I think the left mostly agrees with me, but is afraid to be clear about that. I think the right just wants to call black people the N word without being condemned for it.
 

Leg End

Romans 12:18
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Kyle Gaddo said:
Please understand what free speech actually is. (thanks to XKCD [https://xkcd.com/1357/])
Well, never expected this surprise. Thanks for popping in. But I'd like to explain where I'm coming from on this, and why that comic is ill-applied. Completely independent of my opinions regarding private domains hosting as they please, I am strictly referring her Saelune's very vocal support of the Democratic Party and, under her reasoning, support for dismantling First Amendment protections. Though it's somewhat moot because she outright expresses support for that directly.

In this instance, she herself supports suppression and criminalization of 'Hate Speech', which as ruled by the Supreme Court on numerous occasions, would violate the First Amendment. None of that calls upon a person, company, sentient etch-a-sketch, what have you, to host your opinions. None of that requires other people to listen to it. What is specifically being referenced goes against the very comic you posted because it does in fact call for the government to interfere with speech. I believe that whatever you, I, Saelune, whoever, thinks about what these specific people or whatever other idiot comes by with a stupid opinion has to say, they have the right to say it as much as you or I have our right to say whatever stupid opinions we may have, because we probably all believe someone else has an opinion we find stupid somewhere. The key is that everyone is free to engage in discourse regarding those opinions. Nobody has to play host to it, but the government should not be stepping in and imposing penalties. The very comic you post agrees with this concept, does it not?

Do you disagree? EDIT: Do see Saelune's above post for confirmation regarding her opinion on this matter.