[POLITICS] Extra Credits seems to have driven off a cliff

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

Just a side note: the use of imperial German iconography is so Youtube doesn't block it in Germany, not to whitewash their videos.

That law was actually changed last year to account for historically-accurate use of Nazi iconography in games and online videos for representational and educational purposes, but I was actually talking about revisionist iconography in games for legal purposes.

 

[CaitSeith]

Here's a point to throw a spanner into the works of this entire idiotic argument: John Rabe [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rabe]. A full member of the Nazi Party, ambassador to China, who saved somewhere around 200,000 people from Japanese atrocities at Nanking. Reality is a hell of a lot more complex than these constant "NAZIS BAD" threads understand.

Also Oskar Schindler. So? Do you have a point besides #notallnazis? Or you just have never hear the concept of "exceptions"?

 

[Saelune]

Here's a point to throw a spanner into the works of this entire idiotic argument: John Rabe [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rabe]. A full member of the Nazi Party, ambassador to China, who saved somewhere around 200,000 people from Japanese atrocities at Nanking. Reality is a hell of a lot more complex than these constant "NAZIS BAD" threads understand.

So he was shit at being a Nazi. While that is a good thing, it is foolish to think that exonerates Hitler.

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

Here's a point to throw a spanner into the works of this entire idiotic argument: John Rabe [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rabe]. A full member of the Nazi Party, ambassador to China, who saved somewhere around 200,000 people from Japanese atrocities at Nanking. Reality is a hell of a lot more complex than these constant "NAZIS BAD" threads understand.

And that changes the reality of the Nazi party's policies...how again?

 

[Abomination]

Here's a point to throw a spanner into the works of this entire idiotic argument: John Rabe [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rabe]. A full member of the Nazi Party, ambassador to China, who saved somewhere around 200,000 people from Japanese atrocities at Nanking. Reality is a hell of a lot more complex than these constant "NAZIS BAD" threads understand.

And that changes the reality of the Nazi party's policies...how again?

That it was possible to be a member of the Nazi party without believing in every philosophy of the Nazi party.

Some were just nationalists/patriots. Some just did as they were told on threat of death. Some didn't know any better.

A lot of people were Nazis because someone figuratively held a gun to their head, or rather the heads of their family. A common Nazi tactic to ensure loyalty was to just threaten someone's family so that they would carry out orders they otherwise found questionable.

 

[Gergar12_v1legacy]

So about two weeks ago Extra Credits posted a video that has been, I believe, their most downvoted video they've ever had on Youtube and one that has caused their biggest loss of subscribers ever as well.


Now at first I didn't want to say anything about this because I can see the trajectory of how this conversation is likely to go. But ya know what? Let's just do it, let's just dig into this. Everything else is crazy and dumb lately with the world so let's just dive into this both old and new debate again.

Do you agree with this video's message? Do you agree with what its intent is? Do you agree with HOW it went about this? Or do you disagree? Go ahead Escapist's let's hit this one hard.

I stopped caring about EC since 2012/13. They started getting overly preachy, and getting so much of their research wrong. When they started defending Micros-transactions and loot-boxes, I knew they sold out and lost all hope. The nazi video....they became another Sarkeesian and Jack Thompson. Preaching how playing x turns gamers in to y with no facts, and only fantasies and assumptions backing them. The kind of crap you would see in the 90s/2000s. My respect dropped even further. As the old saying goes, "He/She who fights monsters, shall become one."

The Act Man put them in their place:

Then call them by their actual name, shills. They are corporate shills who ignore the fact that shareholders and executives want more money end of the story.

 

[Erttheking]

Here's a point to throw a spanner into the works of this entire idiotic argument: John Rabe [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rabe]. A full member of the Nazi Party, ambassador to China, who saved somewhere around 200,000 people from Japanese atrocities at Nanking. Reality is a hell of a lot more complex than these constant "NAZIS BAD" threads understand.

And that changes the reality of the Nazi party's policies...how again?

That it was possible to be a member of the Nazi party without believing in every philosophy of the Nazi party.

Some were just nationalists/patriots. Some just did as they were told on threat of death. Some didn't know any better.

A lot of people were Nazis because someone figuratively held a gun to their head, or rather the heads of their family. A common Nazi tactic to ensure loyalty was to just threaten someone's family so that they would carry out orders they otherwise found questionable.

While this isn't wrong, the fact of the matter is that a lot of these people ended up directly contributing to the Nazi party. Erwin Rommel was a decent man. Erwin Rommel was still a Nazi, who fought for Nazi Germany and ended up killing a lot of people who fought against Nazi Germany.

Honestly, if we want to talk about how not all Nazis were evil, I want to look at Nazis who recanted and showed great regret after the war was over, not Nazis who might not have known or had no choice.

 

[Abomination]

While this isn't wrong, the fact of the matter is that a lot of these people ended up directly contributing to the Nazi party. Erwin Rommel was a decent man. Erwin Rommel was still a Nazi, who fought for Nazi Germany and ended up killing a lot of people who fought against Nazi Germany.

Honestly, if we want to talk about how not all Nazis were evil, I want to look at Nazis who recanted and showed great regret after the war was over, not Nazis who might not have known or had no choice.

We're looking at ends, means, and intentions here.

Rommel had noble intentions and means, but was contributing to a horrific end. Surely he is not on the same level as Himmler.

There are varying degrees of Nazi, and typically the higher one goes in their authority structure the more likely that person is to be outright evil. But the people at the bottom? The significant majority of people? They were stuck between a rock and a hard place. I find it unfair to consider fools and uninformed just as guilty as the masterminds and schemers of the Nazi party.

 

[Erttheking]

While this isn't wrong, the fact of the matter is that a lot of these people ended up directly contributing to the Nazi party. Erwin Rommel was a decent man. Erwin Rommel was still a Nazi, who fought for Nazi Germany and ended up killing a lot of people who fought against Nazi Germany.

Honestly, if we want to talk about how not all Nazis were evil, I want to look at Nazis who recanted and showed great regret after the war was over, not Nazis who might not have known or had no choice.

We're looking at ends, means, and intentions here.

Rommel had noble intentions and means, but was contributing to a horrific end. Surely he is not on the same level as Himmler.

There are varying degrees of Nazi, and typically the higher one goes in their authority structure the more likely that person is to be outright evil. But the people at the bottom? The significant majority of people? They were stuck between a rock and a hard place. I find it unfair to consider fools and uninformed just as guilty as the masterminds and schemers of the Nazi party.

You're not wrong. He's not as bad as Himmler. But that's a low bar to set. I'd argue that he's a decent Nazi, but that's the definition of damned by faint praise. If he was a good man, he would've done his best to be somewhere else. I can cut some slack for the average person. Not so much for people who were actively contributing to Nazi Germany's imperialistic, tyrannical, and at many times genocidal march across Europe and Africa. No one ever set out with the intention to do evil for evil's sake. To steal a line from Borderlands, everyone thinks they're the hero of their own story. Misguided intentions only go so far, and ultimately everyone is responsible for their own actions.

Now. The average grunt isn't as bad as Hitler, this is true. But the average grunt, when ordered to invade countries that had done Germany no wrong, to round up all the Jews, to shoot down anyone who dared resist, followed those orders. This is an issue I have. A lot of people assume that Nazis = Hitler. Hitler was only one Nazi among millions. And for all their misguided beliefs and good intentions, eighteen million soldiers actively contributed to one of the most horrific regimes in human history. I have some sympathy for the conscripts. Some. Not the rest.

You know why I really don't like skating around the concept of people with good intentions or bit roles in horrific regimes? Because there were countless people who recognized what was happening was wrong and put their lives on the line to combat it. To save others. And many times they didn't live through it. The Second World War was the very best and worst humanity had to offer. I'm not going to insult the sacrifices made by the best to sugar coat what the worst did.

I don't cut the people from my country slack when it comes to the horrible things we did in the war, why should I do the same for others?

 

[BrawlMan]

So about two weeks ago Extra Credits posted a video that has been, I believe, their most downvoted video they've ever had on Youtube and one that has caused their biggest loss of subscribers ever as well.


Now at first I didn't want to say anything about this because I can see the trajectory of how this conversation is likely to go. But ya know what? Let's just do it, let's just dig into this. Everything else is crazy and dumb lately with the world so let's just dive into this both old and new debate again.

Do you agree with this video's message? Do you agree with what its intent is? Do you agree with HOW it went about this? Or do you disagree? Go ahead Escapist's let's hit this one hard.

I stopped caring about EC since 2012/13. They started getting overly preachy, and getting so much of their research wrong. When they started defending Micros-transactions and loot-boxes, I knew they sold out and lost all hope. The nazi video....they became another Sarkeesian and Jack Thompson. Preaching how playing x turns gamers in to y with no facts, and only fantasies and assumptions backing them. The kind of crap you would see in the 90s/2000s. My respect dropped even further. As the old saying goes, "He/She who fights monsters, shall become one."

The Act Man put them in their place:

Then call them by their actual name, shills. They are corporate shills who ignore the fact that shareholders and executives want more money end of the story.

Same difference. Either way, they became the things they hated or fought against. How tragic.

 

[Saelune]

Only one of the 3 creators of Extra Credits is still involved. And even many of the later people aren't there anymore. Just like how many developers like Bioware and Bungie went down the tubes cause the good people left, the EC born on the Escapist is not the EC being talked about in this topic.

 

[ebalosus]

Only one of the 3 creators of Extra Credits is still involved. And even many of the later people aren't there anymore. Just like how many developers like Bioware and Bungie went down the tubes cause the good people left, the EC born on the Escapist is not the EC being talked about in this topic.

A shame really, because they were arguably among the most prominent media analysis videographers that led to the analysis golden age of 2012 that replaced the AVGN/Yahtzee angry (wo)man snarking/raging about videogame/movie/whathaveyou period from 2005 onwards; but I digress.

While I feel that their hearts are in the right place, they aren't focusing on where it would help the most (education), but on where people are exposed to the symbols of such ideas. I play Project Reality, which in case you don't know, is a mil-sim type game. In it, you have the opportunity to play as Russian Insurgents (Chechens) or the Russians opposing them, the Israeli Defense Force or the Palestinian Liberation Organisation opposing them, or even the Taliban fighting it out with the USMC. Last time I checked, none of us who played as those factions was swayed by their ideologies any more than what they were IRL.

IMHO the whole thing of EC and those arguing against them is making mountains out of molehills. Yes, EC made a shitty misinformed video...but they did that during their golden age as well (remember game addiction? What about the video on running out of radio spectrum?); and yes, they deserve to be called out on their BS, but that doesn't disqualify any of their past or future videos on the merits of the currently discussed video alone.

 

[Terminal Blue]

snip

I've been struggling to respond to this one, because I think if you start from the standpoint that propaganda is about converting people to weird ideologies, then it's going to be quite fundamentally difficult for you to have any kind of critical perspective on the media you consume.

No modern, liberal person is going to sit down and watch Der Ewige Jude and come away "converted" into an anti-semite. That doesn't mean the film was a failure, or that it didn't influence its viewers, but it did so within the normal limitations of what is possible with media effects. It isn't aimed at people who aren't anti-semitic, rather it assumes that its viewers are already anti-semitic and thus will be willing to accept information which justifies their emotional biases. The goal is not to convert people to anti-semitism, but to shape their existing anti-semitism into a racial consciousness which would ultimately justify the detention and extermination of millions of Jewish people, and it worked. The film was a huge cultural turning point and helped to ready the German people for more radical anti-semitic policies, but it didn't make them anti-semitic in the first place. They already were.

That's why they couldn't see the attempt to influence them which would be obvious and easy to reject for a modern viewer, because they were being told things they already wanted to believe.

The reverse is also true. If someone sees a movie or game with minorities in prominent roles and perceives it merely as an attempt to emotionally manipulate or "convert" them into liking or feeling sympathetic to those minorities, then they're actually revealing their preexisting beliefs and emotional biases. Rather than assuming, as would be normal, that the media is coming from a standpoint of appealing to those who can already like or feel sympathetic towards minority characters, they can only percieve an attempt to emotionally manipulate or convert them, someone who does not already like or feel sympathetic towards minorities, to some kind of crazy political agenda of, you know, not being prejudiced.

This does not mean that such media itself is not propaganda, but it's only propaganda in the sense that all media is made from a political standpoint, and if your political standpoint is that there's nothing wrong with being an ethnic minority or being LGBT, then the inclusion of such characters is not inherently politically motivated, and certainly isn't intended as some kind of conspiratorial effort to "convert" people.

The reality is that all media, including games, has a political standpoint. Every piece of media is appealing to emotional biases in its audience, and some of those biases will have political consequences. If those biases are continually reinforced and normalised to the point that they doesn't seem "political" any more, then the media has influenced the political stance of its audience. This is not a side effect, it is part of the intended effect. Media exists, after all, to influence the emotions of its audience (usually to entertain them or make them happy). It can make you care about something which is purely fictional, and yes, conversely it can make you less caring of things which really happen by presenting them in a fictional context. Propaganda isn't some special genre of media that exists to "convert" people, it's simply a technique for exploiting that capacity of media to play with your emotions, and uses it to influence political beliefs.

If you're looking for the propagandistic elements in media, don't look at what "crazy ideology" you think it's trying to convert you to. Look at how it makes you feel, or is trying to make you feel, and then ask if feeling that way has political consequences.