Politics in Skyrim

[New Frontiersman]

I've noticed lately that among the Skyrim threads there seem to be more than a few threads discussing the Stormcloaks and the Imperials and who's right, justified, etc. but I couldn't help but notice that some people are taking these topics really seriously, like just as seriously as I've seen people debate over real life politics and religion. People arguing over the morality of the Stormcloaks rebellion and the justifications for Imperial rule over Skyrim and the role the Thalmor play in the conflict.

Am I the only one who thinks that people are taking this a bit too seriously? While I do believe that some interesting moral and political questions are drawn by the conflict that is occurring within the game, it seems to me that people are taking it just a bit too personally. It's not real guys. People shouldn't get so personally attached to the virtual factions of an imaginary world.

To give this post a bit more discussion value, what do you think about the people who are getting so involved in the moral dispute between the Imperials and Stormcloaks, and why do you think they get so personally attached to one of these factions. If you have gone on the forums and penned s post defending the Imperials/ Stormcloaks and their actions/ positions etc. why do feel so attracted to the side you chose?

Also; bonus question: What deeper real life moral and social issues and questions are being brought up by the conflict within the game between the Stormcloaks and the Empire? And how would you respond to those issues and questions?

 

[DeadlyYellow]

Well I haven't played Skyrim, but since it's a Bethesda game I'll just assume one faction are racists and the other are assholes.

 

[Kimarous]

My opinion on the matter is that if people are debating sides THIS much, it speaks to the quality of the writing. I also feel that it speaks less about "which faction is better" so much as "what factors cause these individuals to make decisions." It really speaks a lot about the person's personality and thought process. For example, people who think "One Imperial captain was an asshole; the Empire must DIE!" obviously hold grudges and either don't know or don't care how disproportionate their retribution is.

 

[DEAD34345]

Well I haven't played Skyrim, but since it's a Bethesda game I'll just assume one faction are racists and the other are assholes.

You sure you haven't played Skyrim? (Hah)

OT: I argue about Skyrim politics more seriously than I do real politics because Skyrim's issues are much more interesting, and I know more about them. If someone takes it seriously enough to actually get offended by the arguments then I would say that is taking it "too seriously", but I don't think that's really the case.

I'm probably one of the posters who you consider are taking it too seriously, because I've argued a lot about it, but I don't actually think it has any importance in real life and I would never get angry over it either. I just like to argue, especially about things I'm interested in (i.e. the TES games).

 

[zenoaugustus]

I mean, I joined the Stormcloaks and wish I had joined the Imperials. The Stormcloaks argue that the Imperials are not the right ones for Skyrim, but honestly, it's the Stormcloaks. They are xenophobes and the leader of the Stormcloaks is barely relatable. He acts like an arrogant, self-righteous ass. The Imperials suck too, but I feel like its pretty obvious the Stormcloaks are the worse of two evils.

 

[Condiments]

Also; bonus question: What deeper real life moral and social issues and questions are being brought up by the conflict within the game between the Stormcloaks and the Empire? And how would you respond to those issues and questions?

1984 is a story about a totalitarian society that tries to control its people and their thought processes. Its a piece of fiction that will most likely never happen, but it still freaks the hell out of people, and is used often as a reference for society where control has gone too far. If anything, its reflects on videogames that there isn't more discussion like this, where the ethics/themes of something can been debated. Works of fiction are in essence, "lies that tell truths".

While I think the conflict of Skyrim was under-utilized within the context of the game, if people gain a large understanding of ethics from their discussion then all the better.

 

[Prince Regent]

Politics are fun, even fictional politics. Maybe fictional politics are even more fun, because you're not bound by well reality.

So just let us have this. Ok?

 

[MarineSquadDeployed]

It's actually fairly interesting, because this sort of thing happens all the time when story-based games get big enough. I only have anecdotal evidence to back this up, however, so take anything I say with a grain of salt.

I used to hang out on the World of Warcraft's Roleplay Forum (I know, I know - make your jokes now) where people would spend incredible amounts of time typing out long, elaborate arguments to justify why the Alliance did this or the Horde did that, explaining that Garrosh Hellscream is a dick or that Varian Wrynn can suck a fat one. I'm seeing a lot of the same tendencies with this Stormcloak/Imperial debate, with a lot of the vitriol seemingly directed towards the Stormcloaks.

I think a large reason why people get so upset and worked up about this kind of stuff is that as gamers, and especially in a game like Skyrim that sets out to immerse us as much as possible in a fictional world, we tend to project ourselves onto our characters, even if we're telling ourselves we're playing as someone else. The same thing basically applies to World of Warcraft roleplayers as well, though perhaps on an even larger scale. Hence, when we see an attack on the fictional philosophical or political ideology we consider ourselves to belong to, we see it as an attack on us as people. This probably isn't helped at all by the fact that the relative anonymity and lack of empathy on the internet makes it easy to read hurtful or insensitive messages into what is written.

Another reason why this kicks off so much debate may be that, as an earlier poster said, one faction are racists and the other are assholes. It's easy to disagree with both factions in Skyrim, because they are all given plenty of opportunity to engage in disagreeable actions. For example, the Stormcloak faction contains plenty of parallels to real-world nationalist ideologies, complete with a perceived stance of "Skyrim for the Nords", mirroring many real-life phrases. The Empire, on the other hand, appears to be playing Chamberlain to appease what basically amounts to Nazi Elves.

That's my two cents anyway, make of it what you will.

 

[New Frontiersman]

Politics are fun, even fictional politics. Maybe fictional politics are even more fun, because you're not bound by well, reality.

So just let us have this. Ok?

I don't mean to say it's not fun to argue sometimes, and I don't begrudge you your fun, it just seems to me some people are getting way too into it. Taking time to angrily defend and justify their side while defaming the other seems to be going just a bit too far.

I'm probably one of the posters who you consider are taking it too seriously, because I've argued a lot about it, but I don't actually think it has any importance in real life and I would never get angry over it either. I just like to argue, especially about things I'm interested in (i.e. the TES games).

Nah... well maybe. I don't know. As long as you're having fun I guess it doesn't matter.

My opinion on the matter is that if people are debating sides THIS much, it speaks to the quality of the writing. I also feel that it speaks less about "which faction is better" so much as "what factors cause these individuals to make decisions." It really speaks a lot about the person's personality and thought process. For example, people who think "One Imperial captain was an asshole; the Empire must DIE!" obviously hold grudges and either don't know or don't care how disproportionate their retribution is.

Huh, that's an interesting way of thinking about it. I think if more of the discussions were centered on "what factors cause these individuals to make decisions" rather than which side is in the right, the discussions would be far more interesting and relevant to the real world.

Now I feel like a dick for taking it all personal. I suppose it's because it's very close to events happening in real life so people take it more seriously then they probably should.

Eh, don't feel like a dick, it's fine, it's probably just me being sensitive. I do have to ask though: how do you think it's close to events happening in real life? I'd like to hear your perspective on this, to what events do you refer?

Cut down for size

That's a really interesting way of putting it. To tell the truth one of the first things that came to mind when writing this post was the conflict in WoW between the Alliance and the Horde. I think bring up many interesting and well thought out points in your response, I've heard of similar mental processes in action in real life cults and subcultures with people taking slurs against the group as personal attacks, which is somewhat understandable.

 

[badgersprite]

Hey, you should see the Mass Effect and Dragon Age crowd once you start talking about genophage, quarians and mage liberation.

To be honest, while I think some people get a little worked up over it, I'm perfectly fine with it. On some level, I prefer the over the top arguments about fiction than the over the top arguments about real life political issues, because at least people don't get offended or can't say things that are as offensive when commenting on something that doesn't involve real people and where these kind of arguments and points of view have very real consequences. Yeah, that makes people very emotional.

I could probably write some overlong essay on the politics and historical context of Skyrim, because they've done a great job positioning this whole conflict in a very real, relatable context. It feels like a history that could actually exist.

The real villains of the game world are the Thalmor. What you have to decide as a player is basically which of the other sides are the lesser of two evils. Is it the Empire who have more or less sided with the Thalmor because it's the only possible way to at least temporarily prevent invasion and genocide - who hope to keep the Empire strong because doing so is more or less the only hope of resisting the Thalmor? Or is it the Stormcloaks, who are willing to divide the Empire and risk being vulnerable to invasion because they are unwilling to compromise on certain moral values, beliefs and traditions?

It's a legitimately two-sided debate. Both sides are wrong and evil in some ways. Both sides do things that are repulsive and wrong. But both sides also have good intentions, and show good traits. The Empire commits public executions to show their power. The Stormcloaks are racists and hypocrites who helped steal land from the Forsworn. Both sides have good guys who are nice, friendly and seem truly heroic. Both sides also have massive assholes who treat you and other people like crap. Both sides are willing to compromise their morals in order to win at certain points.

So, yeah. It's very interesting. I can see why people would support either side. But I also see why people would loath either side.

 

[Recombinant]

Fiction reveals truths reality obscures. To me these debates just underscore the value of fiction and fantasy and show how they can shed new light on topics or ideas that in real life we might find unpalatable or distasteful and creates a context that enables meaningful and insightful conversation to take place.

 

[MarineSquadDeployed]

That's a really interesting way of putting it. To tell the truth one of the first things that came to mind when writing this post was the conflict in WoW between the Alliance and the Horde. I think bring up many interesting and well thought out points in your response, I've heard of similar mental processes in action in real life cults and subcultures with people taking slurs against the group as personal attacks, which is somewhat understandable.

I think that may actually be a large part of it, yes. I mean, let's assume you sided with the Stormcloaks on your first playthrough. Then you come across one of these discussion threads where you see someone posted, for instance, "The Stormcloaks are a bunch of dirty traitors". On some level, you're gonna start thinking "This person just called me a dirty traitor by proxy", and you're probably not going to enjoy that very much.

On the other hand, elaborate as these discussions can get, I feel that another reason why they get so big is because whatever issues are brought up in these games, they're never going to be as multi-faceted and complex as most political issues in real life, if only for the basic fact that for that to happen, game developers would have to create a world with as much "background information" as our world has, which would of course be impossible or at the very least a gargantuan undertaking. Therefore, it is easier to come down on either side of the debate because there is less information to take into consideration when making your decision. At least that's my theory.

 

[Mrrrgggrlllrrrg]

Well the obvious themes in the game are the Rebellion of the stormcloaks to what they believe is unjust and the imperial empire trying to keep things under their control.

Spectacular and just use of racism, a conqueror faction that is forcing the the empire because of politics, a puppet government, a reluctant leader, civil unrest, an external world obliterating threat of extinction, oppression based on religious beliefs, personally the politics in skyrim are deeper than Faction A is super racist for no reason and Faction B are unrelenting assholes.

A lot of information is in the game about the conflict, just need to find it.

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

Am I the only one who thinks that people are taking this a bit too seriously? While I do believe that some interesting moral and political questions are drawn by the conflict that is occurring within the game, it seems to me that people are taking it just a bit too personally. It's not real guys. People shouldn't get so personally attached to the virtual factions of an imaginary world.

During my first playthrough, I was a Nord about to get beheaded together with a thief and a bunch of Stormcloak insurgents. I did take the beheading bit quite personal, so I teamed up with the Stormcloaks. I was underwhelmed by Ulfric's decisions, so I'd basically cut him up and serve him as Sashimi just to make the world a better place.

In my second playthrough, I am a Khajit siding with the Imperials. The story does offer the opportunity to learn two sides to the story, and while I did not intend to ever play as kitty or lizard, I must say I really like the kitty nightvision perk.

It's an adventure game. Go forth, kill'em all, loot their corpses. As the story unfolds, we are supposed to make our either/or decisions and we are supposed to take sides. To be honest, sweet loot and gear is fine with me, but I take offense at it being possible to basically serve all Gods and Draemora/Demon Lords at will, do their bidding, kill for them and then turn Richard Dawkins on them as soon as they've handed out the goods.

To give this post a bit more discussion value, what do you think about the people who are getting so involved in the moral dispute between the Imperials and Stormcloaks, and why do you think they get so personally attached to one of these factions. If you have gone on the forums and penned s post defending the Imperials/ Stormcloaks and their actions/ positions etc. why do feel so attracted to the side you chose?

My first run had me look at things from the perspective of a Nord. I loathed the Imperials, and I didn't mind the other races much, except for when they tried to kill me. Now, I am a cat person and from my newly acquired cat person point-of-view, the Imperials seem to be much more stable, and I am interested in seeing how things turn out going a decidedly different way. I did certain things when siding with the Stormcloaks that just don't feel right.

Also; bonus question: What deeper real life moral and social issues and questions are being brought up by the conflict within the game between the Stormcloaks and the Empire? And how would you respond to those issues and questions?

If some alien force invaded my country, I'd be instinctively tempted to side with the next best Ulfric character. I could probably even ad-lib some proper reasoning into that decision. However, each and every one of the Ulfrics of the world could turn out to be a quack, an instigator, an opportunist, an ersatz Jesus, claiming power they don't deserve and influence they cannot wield. With current zones of conflict getting a little more attention lately, I would say I am seeing some lessons about human nature contained within Skyrim that I just plain did not expect. It's a very welcome bonus feature, even though just some single occurrences can trigger knee-jerk reactions that will make people blind to any insight that might follow. Just as I will always wipe out the Dark Brotherhood and make black pudding from pools of their blood, some people will always stick to their Stormcloak/Imperial faction no matter what, because of reasons well beyond reasoning.

Some people get triggered by the racism of the Nords, not seeing how the Thalmor are the Übernazis deluxe. Some people turn a blind eye to cheating and lying lizardmen or oddly manipulative cat folk. Oh, those spells I gave you burned you alive? So solly. Oh, the pot I made you sniff made you see strange things and kill a hundred people while under the influence? So solly.

Now I am a Khajit myself and I am still Dragonborn. Some actors / ingame automatons respond quite differently, some I would say are afraid of a six-foot cat lady with scars on her face. Others feel like they want to go all furry on me and I can easily imagine cuddling up with them as temperatures drop after sunset. It's immersion at play, the proper thing, not the marketing buzzword. It's inspiring and rewarding, and if Bethesda can manage to go a bit less glitchy come next game, they really have the world at their feet, with the sky being the limit.