[Politics} Pulling Yourself Up by Your Bootstraps

Trunkage

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This is an idiom that is used by a certain segment of (mainly American) conservative men, that means the opposite of what people think - You literally can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps. It's physically impossible. You need help. It was meant to critique anyone who thought they could 'go it alone' but has now been taken as a catch cry for such people (who don't realise that they have never gone it alone, because, that too, is an impossibility.)

An old recurring entity on this forum, and a follower of this idiom, Jordan Peterson, has checked himself into rehab. https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/jordan-peterson-enters-rehab-after-wifes-cancer-diagnosis/news-story/d4514c50ce7a66a7e525cab3d04c6c78

I.e. he's getting the help he needs instead of 'doing it alone', which is great. His wife was terribly sick, he wasn't dealing with it and got some drugs from a doc to help push through. This lead to an addiction. He tried going cold turkey, but that failed. He checked himself into rehab. I feel sorry for him about his wife. I'm thankful he's getting the help he needs.

I would also hope this leads to a moment of self reflection, looking at how his ideology lead him to this point. But I doubt it. Rush Limbaugh had an.. event a decade ago, and he still peddles in the idea that drug users are truly incompetent and the worst. You know, a completely black and white situation without any nuance. https://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/28/us/28ap-rush.html

Because drugs cannot be part of the problem. It must be the weakness of the person. And if you have a weakness, you definitely shouldn't get support (especially governmental). Because you should always Pull Yourself Up by Those Bootstraps.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
He will probably find some way to justify this and not alter his world view at all.
 

Marik2

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The guy is really good whenever he talks about the psychology of religion and Christianity, but unfortunately; he gets caught up with semi half truth ideologies like many others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LqZdkkBDas
 

tstorm823

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Worgen said:
He will probably find some way to justify this and not alter his world view at all.
I think neither of those things will happen. I don't think he will justify his own personal problems as though they aren't problems, nor do I think he'd need to alter his world view because he sought help. The man is literally a psychologist, he has provided others therapy professionally, to think he believes or suggests that nobody ever needs help is a pretty wild misunderstanding.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
tstorm823 said:
Worgen said:
He will probably find some way to justify this and not alter his world view at all.
I think neither of those things will happen. I don't think he will justify his own personal problems as though they aren't problems, nor do I think he'd need to alter his world view because he sought help. The man is literally a psychologist, he has provided others therapy professionally, to think he believes or suggests that nobody ever needs help is a pretty wild misunderstanding.
He is also a tool that is very good at saying there is a problem and leading people to the worst solution while always trying to weasel out of any responsibility or suggest an actual fix. As we saw with his discussion about women in the workplace and makeup.
 

Abomination

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Typically those people who "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" used said bootstraps to garrote others into doing the actual work while they profited from it.
 

Smithnikov_v1legacy

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tstorm823 said:
Worgen said:
He will probably find some way to justify this and not alter his world view at all.
I think neither of those things will happen. I don't think he will justify his own personal problems as though they aren't problems, nor do I think he'd need to alter his world view because he sought help. The man is literally a psychologist, he has provided others therapy professionally, to think he believes or suggests that nobody ever needs help is a pretty wild misunderstanding.
Perhaps, but I don't want to hear him lecturing me about not living like a proper lobster and cleaning my room when I can keep my vices in check.
 

Trunkage

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tstorm823 said:
Worgen said:
He will probably find some way to justify this and not alter his world view at all.
I think neither of those things will happen. I don't think he will justify his own personal problems as though they aren't problems, nor do I think he'd need to alter his world view because he sought help. The man is literally a psychologist, he has provided others therapy professionally, to think he believes or suggests that nobody ever needs help is a pretty wild misunderstanding.
I don't think he'll change his world view either. He keeps calling people on the Left out for making Conservatives conform to their ideology, while calling minorities abominations for not conforming to tradition soecity. Or claiming they don't exist. And doesn't see any hypocracy,

I wouldn't be suprised if he comes out of it saying that he did it himself, and that it was easy and blame drug users for their problems. That drug companies shouldn't (at least partially) be held to account for the addictiveness of their product. Or that men, in particular, are expected by society to ignore problems (which is what happened to him, leading to bigger problems down the road.) Or that drugs should be the first resort to a mental health issue. Or maybe do some research on why drug use happen, and not pretend it doesn't happen to white collar worker just as much as the blue collars. IDK. Maybe he will suprise me. He has talked about ongoing depression before but also claimed it was cured by a diet. So... I don't have much faith, that he will see a problem and come to an unrelated or unhelpful conclusion like he usually does
 

tstorm823

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trunkage said:
I don't think he'll change his world view either. He keeps calling people on the Left out for making Conservatives conform to their ideology, while calling minorities abominations for not conforming to tradition soecity. Or claiming they don't exist. And doesn't see any hypocracy,
Yeah, I'm gonna need a source on Peterson calling minorities abominations or denying their existence. I don't think those things happened.

The way I see the man, I think he says some really stupidly obvious things, and hates communism. He got traction with internet degenerates because those are the people who had room to benefit from stupidly obvious things and they also don't like communism. So like, I'm worried you're either judging him by the people who like him rather than his own actions, or you're just upset that he hates communism.
 

CaitSeith

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He never seemed to me as someone who followed the "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" dogma. I mean, the way he got lots of notoriety was by appearing on other people's platforms, rather than creating his own alone.
 
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I don't know.

I'm neutral on Jordan Peterson. I don't agree with a lot of his political messages, but I've heard him talk about child-rearing. He has some points on things for me and misses for others.

But he has talked about Chemical Addiction [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXYAWCAIqRE] before. And he speaks about this very thing (video posted in 2017) about having to cut yourself off from the vice, but that not being the only step. That you need to build new circuits to counteract the circuits you've already built for your addiction.

I do hope that this will encourage others he has sway with to look at their own lives. That Six pack they really need to counteract a bad day at work, the weed they need to smoke because things are too hard. It's a band-aid. That thing is still there. If you need help to cope with it, get yourself some help. Please.

But as Peterson saw in himself, that vice is only masking it. Help isn't a four-letter word.
 
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trunkage said:
His wife was terribly sick, he wasn't dealing with it and got some drugs from a doc to help push through. This lead to an addiction. He tried going cold turkey, but that failed. He checked himself into rehab. I feel sorry for him about his wife. I'm thankful he's getting the help he needs.
Is the wife alright?
 

Agema

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trunkage said:
An old recurring entity on this forum, and a follower of this idiom, Jordan Peterson, has checked himself into rehab. https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/jordan-peterson-enters-rehab-after-wifes-cancer-diagnosis/news-story/d4514c50ce7a66a7e525cab3d04c6c78
Clonazepam? That's an odd choice.

It's a benzodiazepine, so I presume therefore he was suffering from anxiety. However, clonazepam is overwhelmingly used as an anticonvulsant, it's a very rare choice as an anxiolytic. BDZs generally are not favoured for anxiety these days for precisely the reason that they are addictive - it suggests he was probably having acute attacks (such as panic attacks) where they are most appropriate, otherwise he'd probably have been on what are more commonly thought of as antidepressants (SSRIs, etc.).

Because drugs cannot be part of the problem. It must be the weakness of the person. And if you have a weakness, you definitely shouldn't get support (especially governmental).
Let's not be too harsh on Peterson here. His however-many rules for life are not commandments for people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps - it is a book intended to help people with some guidance, so they can help themselves. And that is how a lot of psychological therapy works. The therapist doesn't usually just tell you flat out what the problem is and how to fix it, they guide you to recognise the problem for yourself, and give you ideas how to fix it yourself.

I also think Peterson believes strongly in the idea that one takes responsibility for oneself (I would say this is one of the best virtues of conservative ideology - although I don't extend it to the extreme plenty of conservatives do that those in need should be blamed for being in need). I don't see him fobbing the blame onto drugs companies, etc. He's a clinical psychologist, so he knows perfectly well what he was taking and what the risks were.
 

Trunkage

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Palindromemordnilap said:
trunkage said:
His wife was terribly sick, he wasn't dealing with it and got some drugs from a doc to help push through. This lead to an addiction. He tried going cold turkey, but that failed. He checked himself into rehab. I feel sorry for him about his wife. I'm thankful he's getting the help he needs.
Is the wife alright?
His wife made a 'miraculous recovery' near the start of the year, and this is when he tries to go cold turkey by himself. When that didn't work, he goes to rehab. So I don't know if anything recent has happened - this might have over shadowed it. But she seems to have recovered (if memory serves, it was cancer, so its gone into remission.)
Agema said:
trunkage said:
Because drugs cannot be part of the problem. It must be the weakness of the person. And if you have a weakness, you definitely shouldn't get support (especially governmental).
Let's not be too harsh on Peterson here. His however-many rules for life are not commandments for people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps - it is a book intended to help people with some guidance, so they can help themselves. And that is how a lot of psychological therapy works. The therapist doesn't usually just tell you flat out what the problem is and how to fix it, they guide you to recognise the problem for yourself, and give you ideas how to fix it yourself.

I also think Peterson believes strongly in the idea that one takes responsibility for oneself (I would say this is one of the best virtues of conservative ideology - although I don't extend it to the extreme plenty of conservatives do that those in need should be blamed for being in need). I don't see him fobbing the blame onto drugs companies, etc. He's a clinical psychologist, so he knows perfectly well what he was taking and what the risks were.
I was being a little facetious. Drug issues are very complex and blaming only one thing means you don't understand the problem. There is also the problem of there being a difference between people knowing the risks and understanding. Way too many people think, "it cant be me that falls for that risk. I'm better than the average person." Because they are usually the ones who do fall for that risk.

Also, I'd contend that Liberals are very worried about personal responsibility. Putting a spotlight on drugs and their addictiveness is trying to get many people to take personal responsibility (customers, doctors, drug companies, governments.) Where, certain pundits would claim that the only person at fault is the customers.