[POLITICS] Two Mass Shootings in 15 Hours, and O'Rourke on Trump

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

I thought about specifying that this was in the U.S., but at this point, that goes without saying.

First, in El Paso, Texas, a man with a rifle opened fire in a Walmart near the Cielo Vista Mall. At least 20 people have been killed, with another 26 injured. The suspect, who was captured alive, has been potentially linked to a 2,300 word online anti-immigrant manifesto. The manifesto was posted minutes before the shooting, blames immigrants and first-generation Americans for "taking our jobs". Because of the likely motivation, the FBI is treating this as a domestic terrorism case, and is strongly pursuing the death penalty for the shooter, who is cooperating with authorities after his capture.

[hr]

But wait, there's more! About 15 hours after that mass shooting, another man with a rifle opened fire at a nightclub district in downtown Dayton, Ohio. Law enforcement responded "in less than a minute", according to the Dayton mayor, but in that time, the man was able to kill 9 people and injure 26 others. He was killed as well by the responding officers. While that sounds like quite a few people, the Dayton police have said on record that there are "thousands of people" in that particular area on an average Saturday night, so while still tragic, a slower response would have made things much worse.

[hr]

This is out of control. In the last week, there have been 3 mass shootings (I didn't discuss one that actually happened about an hour from my house, in Gilroy, CA). That is 3 too many. I also want to point out that, in the case of the El Paso shooting, the suspect was legally allowed to walk down the street with his rifle in plain sight.

Potential Democratic Presidential Candidate Beto O'Rourke has gone on record, by the way, as laying at least some of the blame at the feet of Trump and his rhetoric, stating that the rise in hate crimes over the last three years indicates some sort of link between Trump's words and others' actions. He even provided a specific example: a mosque in Victoria, Texas getting burned to the ground the day he signed an executive order that would have banned Muslim air travel. He also pointed to the Greenville "send her back" chants as a sign that Trump's rhetoric "fundamentally changes the character of this country and it leads to violence".

I wish that O'Rourke hadn't been asked that question, because while I feel that his answer is actually less reactionary than I expected, he will likely still receive some shame for using the shootings to make his point.

Source for the El Paso shooting and O'Rourke's comment [https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/el-paso-tx-shooting-live-updates/index.html]

Source for the Dayton shooting [https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/ohio-shooting/index.html]

 

[09philj]

?No Way To Prevent This,? Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens [https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1836949580]

America has two choices:
1. Actually do something.
2. Formally declare to the world and themselves that they are an unchangeably savage race who cannot be stopped from killing.

I suspect that they'll choose option 3, which I didn't list because it's stupid, which is to go "oh dear" and then do nothing. Again.

 

[Baffle]

I'm surprised it took this long for a thread. I was going to post one, but I was busy thinking and praying; apparently God is okay with the status quo though.

Nothing is going to change. There'll be thoughts and prayers, and because the shooters were white we'll worry about their mental health.

 

[09philj]

I'm surprised it took this long for a thread. I was going to post one, but I was busy thinking and praying; apparently God is okay with the status quo though.

Nothing is going to change. There'll be thoughts and prayers, and because the shooters were white we'll worry about their mental health.

Not invest in improving mental health, mind you, just worry about it.

 

[bluegate]

Another day in America, I see?

 

[Baffle]

Not invest in improving mental health, mind you, just worry about it.

I vote we blame video games or foreigners. If only polls weren't broken!

(You'll note I'm being flippant, but no less flippant, and possibly more genuine, than everyone offering thoughts and prayers.)

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

sandy Hook was the crossing of the Rubicon of mass shootings. If 20+ toddlers getting massacred by a psychopath wasn't enough to force lawmakers to take action, nothing ever will be.
Hell in a nation where stray bullets are considered an every day hazard what could we possibly expect?

 

[Saelune]

Anyone who says 'This is too soon' or 'Don't politicize this', you are the problem.

 

[CrazyGirl17]

What the fuck is wrong with people!? I am so fucking sick and tired of this shit...

 

[Kwak]

(last one is satire)
ETA bonus meme

 

[Kwak]

An audience member at a Donald Trump rally in Florida yelled 'shoot them' in reference to migrants at the border. Trump had asked the crowd: 'How do you stop these people?' After laughing at the response, he added: 'Only in the panhandle can you get away with that statement'

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

At this point, the only thing separating Trump from being a leader of a terrorist organization is the fact that the GOP isn't officially recognized as one. But make no mistake, they absolutely are a terrorist organization.

 

[Batou667]

Potential Democratic Presidential Candidate Beto O'Rourke has gone on record, by the way, as laying at least some of the blame at the feet of Trump and his rhetoric, stating that the rise in hate crimes over the last three years indicates some sort of link between Trump's words and others' actions. He even provided a specific example: a mosque in Victoria, Texas getting burned to the ground the day he signed an executive order that would have banned Muslim air travel. He also pointed to the Greenville "send her back" chants as a sign that Trump's rhetoric "fundamentally changes the character of this country and it leads to violence".

As unpleasant as it is that some bad and/or crazy people are seemingly using Trump's acts in office as a springboard for their own acts of self-destructive bloodshed -

1) I don't believe we can establish a causal link, at least not without setting the bar so low that the usual standards for establishing a call to violence are thrown out of the window.

2) You guys hate Trump, I get it. But let's not kid ourselves he has horns just because it matches our preconceptions. Trump is a populist, no doubt, but an ideologue? A far-right one at that? I don't think so.

3) What do you propose we do in response to this, aside from the usual thoughts, prayers and gun control arguments? Stop having frank, forthright discussion about immigration, border security, and so on, because it's a sensitive subject and the oft-cited "rhetoric" tends to make the crazies come out of the woodwork? No. We cannot allow terrorists to set the agenda or limit the discourse. Immigration was one of the key issues Trump was elected on; the conversation will not stop.

 

[Bedinsis]

Anyone who says 'This is too soon' or 'Don't politicize this', you are the problem.

If anyone honestly says that, just respond with asking how long the period in which it is too soon is, and then talk about one of the mass shootings that occurred one too-soon-window ago. There ought to be one, sadly.

 

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

Potential Democratic Presidential Candidate Beto O'Rourke has gone on record, by the way, as laying at least some of the blame at the feet of Trump and his rhetoric, stating that the rise in hate crimes over the last three years indicates some sort of link between Trump's words and others' actions. He even provided a specific example: a mosque in Victoria, Texas getting burned to the ground the day he signed an executive order that would have banned Muslim air travel. He also pointed to the Greenville "send her back" chants as a sign that Trump's rhetoric "fundamentally changes the character of this country and it leads to violence".

As unpleasant as it is that some bad and/or crazy people are seemingly using Trump's acts in office as a springboard for their own acts of self-destructive bloodshed -

1) I don't believe we can establish a causal link, at least not without setting the bar so low that the usual standards for establishing a call to violence are thrown out of the window.

I do agree that saying that Trump CAUSES these behaviors is going too far. There's a difference, however, between correlation and causation. At the very least, there is a correlation, as shown by the fact that people felt quite comfortable chanting "send her back" at a Trump rally in response to Ilhan Omar, a naturalized citizen from Somalia. He may not cause people to be violent or racist, but he doesn't do much to discourage it...as shown by him telling several members of Congress to "go back" to their original countries (while ignoring that 3 of the four were natural-born citizens, and the fourth was naturalized as a refugee) and did nothing to stop the "send her back" chants.

2) You guys hate Trump, I get it. But let's not kid ourselves he has horns just because it matches our preconceptions. Trump is a populist, no doubt, but an ideologue? A far-right one at that? I don't think so.

I think what Trump is, more than anything to these people, is a symbol. If the leader of the US is saying these things, that now makes it all right.

3) What do you propose we do in response to this, aside from the usual thoughts, prayers and gun control arguments? Stop having frank, forthright discussion about immigration, border security, and so on, because it's a sensitive subject and the oft-cited "rhetoric" tends to make the crazies come out of the woodwork? No. We cannot allow terrorists to set the agenda or limit the discourse. Immigration was one of the key issues Trump was elected on; the conversation will not stop.

...what's wrong with having arguments over gun control? I mean, the El Paso shooter was able to buy and carry his rifle legally through the street. It wasn't illegal until he opened fire. I'd argue, in fact, that by focusing purely on immigration in response to the shooting, we are doing just what you say we cannot do: allowing the terrorist to set the agenda. He wants us all to focus on immigration policies, as shown by his 2,300 word manifesto.

Immigration is a discussion that should happen, by all means. I just can't see how you can say that immigration is a discussion that must happen, while saying that the terrorists shouldn't be allowed to set the agenda...when it's clear that the terrorist's agenda WAS immigration.

 

[Saelune]

Potential Democratic Presidential Candidate Beto O'Rourke has gone on record, by the way, as laying at least some of the blame at the feet of Trump and his rhetoric, stating that the rise in hate crimes over the last three years indicates some sort of link between Trump's words and others' actions. He even provided a specific example: a mosque in Victoria, Texas getting burned to the ground the day he signed an executive order that would have banned Muslim air travel. He also pointed to the Greenville "send her back" chants as a sign that Trump's rhetoric "fundamentally changes the character of this country and it leads to violence".

As unpleasant as it is that some bad and/or crazy people are seemingly using Trump's acts in office as a springboard for their own acts of self-destructive bloodshed -

1) I don't believe we can establish a causal link, at least not without setting the bar so low that the usual standards for establishing a call to violence are thrown out of the window.

2) You guys hate Trump, I get it. But let's not kid ourselves he has horns just because it matches our preconceptions. Trump is a populist, no doubt, but an ideologue? A far-right one at that? I don't think so.

3) What do you propose we do in response to this, aside from the usual thoughts, prayers and gun control arguments? Stop having frank, forthright discussion about immigration, border security, and so on, because it's a sensitive subject and the oft-cited "rhetoric" tends to make the crazies come out of the woodwork? No. We cannot allow terrorists to set the agenda or limit the discourse. Immigration was one of the key issues Trump was elected on; the conversation will not stop.

Stop supporting Trump.

 

[Worgen]

This seems appropriate.


Granted the episode was a good number of mass shootings ago.

 

[Leg End]

This is out of control. In the last week, there have been 3 mass shootings (I didn't discuss one that actually happened about an hour from my house, in Gilroy, CA). That is 3 too many.

Bit nuts when it's so close, isn't it? San Bernardino is an hour away and it was so surreal as I'm pretty sure I was very close to the specific locations just a few weeks prior. In all, it's been a hell of a day.

I had to see for myself if that was real, and it is. It's finally come to pass.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I heard about the walmart one and my first thought was "Wait, how was no one in a walmart in TEXAS packing? How did no one shoot back?"

I was then told that apparently walmart is a gun free zone.

How can walmart be a gun free zone when it literally sells guns?!

 

[09philj]

I had to see for myself if that was real, and it is. It's finally come to pass.

Big thonk voice: You don't have to regret your bad ideas if you're dead.