[POLITICS] Why do people look down on Ayn Randian philosophies?

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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The basic jist I get from Ayn Randian philosophy is that special and talented people are being held back by societal norms and conformity. And strive to overcome the norms and conformity.

But apparently this and her other philosophies related to it are looked down by the political and philosophical mainstream.

And really I never seen a proper criticism and counter-argument against Randian Philosophy.

So I am hoping you guys would deliver on it.
 

Saelune

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Did you play Bioshock? Cause that game is basically 'What if Ayn Rand made her own paradise?'

Note: Ayn Rand = Andrew Ryan.

She advocates against ethics. Sure, I do not doubt we could advance science way faster if we just threw ethics out the window, does not mean it is worth it. Imagine if we were allowed to do any horrific experiment we wanted on humans, ethics be damned? That is why sensible people reject her.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Saelune said:
Did you play Bioshock? Cause that game is basically 'What if Ayn Rand made her own paradise?'

Note: Ayn Rand = Andrew Ryan.
"I built a city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality, where the great would not be constrained by the small."
 

Caramel Frappe

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Samtemdo8 said:
The basic jist I get from Ayn Randian philosophy is that special and talented people are being held back by societal norms and conformity. And strive to overcome the norms and conformity.

But apparently this and her other philosophies related to it are looked down by the political and philosophical mainstream.

And really I never seen a proper criticism and counter-argument against Randian Philosophy.

So I am hoping you guys would deliver on it.
It's really not the philosophy itself, but rather, what comes with it ... change.

People are afraid of change, even if it serves to be harmless. Because change can dramatically impact someone's way of living comfortably, or thinking, or their control on their own reality. Basically, if it's not in the norm and isn't universally accepted, it can be taken into a negative aspect.

As for the actual substance in the philosophy we're talking about? It could also do with the fact people abuse when in power. That's kind of why society, whether it's a democracy, communism, anything ... humanity and free will complicates things all the time. Even those in charge aren't going to always follow their own principles, hence why corruption happens.
 

tstorm823

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I've not read Ayn Rand myself and have only a common knowledge understanding of her writing, but I don't think it matters if the philosophy is right or wrong because the messaging was deliberately inflammatory.

The moral goodness of taking care of yourself can be found through history from Socrates to the Boy Scout Oath. From what I know, the unique aspect of Rand's writing is the provocative rhetoric and the possible suggestion that self-interest supersedes other ethics. But I'm not certain if that's actually her position or if her position is the same as the Boy Scouts and she just put a glaze of deliberate controversy on top.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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Samtemdo8 said:
Saelune said:
Did you play Bioshock? Cause that game is basically 'What if Ayn Rand made her own paradise?'

Note: Ayn Rand = Andrew Ryan.
"I built a city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality, where the great would not be constrained by the small."
Since morality isn't an issue, and I deem you have the correct genetic parameters for my testing, I should be able to just drug and kidnap you and perform painful tests on you against your will because it will benefit the advancement of science. If you do not see that as "proper criticism and counter-argument against Randian Philosophy" I am not sure what to tell you. May you be first in line for the tests necessary to advance science faster then.

Considering trying to not hurt the test subjects and provide them with pain medication for their discomfort is only necessary due to morality and is otherwise considered wasteful of time and resources, the test subject's suffering is irrelevant without ethical objections.
 

Marik2

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Samtemdo8 said:
Saelune said:
Did you play Bioshock? Cause that game is basically 'What if Ayn Rand made her own paradise?'

Note: Ayn Rand = Andrew Ryan.
"I built a city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality, where the great would not be constrained by the small."
And look what happened. And yes, I do understand the collective good can become a burden in some areas. I do believe society can have the greatest good, while not constraining the great.
 

tstorm823

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Wait, hold up. Are you all just accepting the premise of inherently more special and talented people being limited by morality and picking a side? You know you can reject that premise entirely, right?
 

Fieldy409_v1legacy

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It just seems selfish and arrogant philosophy to me. It seems to ignore the fact we all work together in a society and wants to help out nobody else it's all about the self.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Lil devils x said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Saelune said:
Did you play Bioshock? Cause that game is basically 'What if Ayn Rand made her own paradise?'

Note: Ayn Rand = Andrew Ryan.
"I built a city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality, where the great would not be constrained by the small."
Since morality isn't an issue, and I deem you have the correct genetic parameters for my testing, I should be able to just drug and kidnap you and perform painful tests on you against your will because it will benefit the advancement of science. If you do not see that as "proper criticism and counter-argument against Randian Philosophy" I am not sure what to tell you. May you be first in line for the tests necessary to advance science faster then.

Considering trying to not hurt the test subjects and provide them with pain medication for their discomfort is only necessary due to morality and is otherwise considered wasteful of time and resources, the test subject's suffering is irrelevant without ethical objections.
I wonder what Randian Philosophy thinks of Hospitals and Health Care...
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Samtemdo8 said:
Lil devils x said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Saelune said:
Did you play Bioshock? Cause that game is basically 'What if Ayn Rand made her own paradise?'

Note: Ayn Rand = Andrew Ryan.
"I built a city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality, where the great would not be constrained by the small."
Since morality isn't an issue, and I deem you have the correct genetic parameters for my testing, I should be able to just drug and kidnap you and perform painful tests on you against your will because it will benefit the advancement of science. If you do not see that as "proper criticism and counter-argument against Randian Philosophy" I am not sure what to tell you. May you be first in line for the tests necessary to advance science faster then.

Considering trying to not hurt the test subjects and provide them with pain medication for their discomfort is only necessary due to morality and is otherwise considered wasteful of time and resources, the test subject's suffering is irrelevant without ethical objections.
I wonder what Randian Philosophy thinks of Hospitals and Health Care...
Wonder no longer: Healthcare is not a right, socialized medicine is enslaving doctors, die in the street if you can't get charity
https://ari.aynrand.org/issues/government-and-business/health-care/Health-Care-is-Not-a-Right
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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Samtemdo8 said:
Lil devils x said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Saelune said:
Did you play Bioshock? Cause that game is basically 'What if Ayn Rand made her own paradise?'

Note: Ayn Rand = Andrew Ryan.
"I built a city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality, where the great would not be constrained by the small."
Since morality isn't an issue, and I deem you have the correct genetic parameters for my testing, I should be able to just drug and kidnap you and perform painful tests on you against your will because it will benefit the advancement of science. If you do not see that as "proper criticism and counter-argument against Randian Philosophy" I am not sure what to tell you. May you be first in line for the tests necessary to advance science faster then.

Considering trying to not hurt the test subjects and provide them with pain medication for their discomfort is only necessary due to morality and is otherwise considered wasteful of time and resources, the test subject's suffering is irrelevant without ethical objections.
I wonder what Randian Philosophy thinks of Hospitals and Health Care...
Considering what Ayan Rand thought of the disabled and their promotion of eugenics and superior humans that would not need public assistance, and since doctors must put others before self in order to place themselves in harms way in order to treat patients, it would be in doctors self interests to charge what they like to the individual and treat only who they choose to treat and let the rest fend for themselves right?

Although Ayn Rand riled against social security and other public support, she also received social security herself when she was too disabled to fend for herself as well. TBH I see her as a pretty disgusting person and I have no idea why you would promote such a person.
 

Agema

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Samtemdo8 said:
The basic jist I get from Ayn Randian philosophy is that special and talented people are being held back by societal norms and conformity. And strive to overcome the norms and conformity.
In which case it'd be nothing special, because Nietzche got there well over 50 years earlier.

Firstly, it's not really a philosophy such as a pseudophilosophy. Basically, it seems Ayn Rand read lots of Aristotle, quite a bit of Nietzche, and has a smattering of knowledge of a few other philosophers that she evidently doesn't really understand very well. Don't get me wrong, it's potentially the best amateur philosophy ever created, but it's amateur nonetheless. In terms of philosophical rigour, it's very weak - poorly logically defended, full of flaws. Not least, Objectivism has a fundamental problem by failing to be objective. It tries to simply ignore Hume's is-ought principle of morality, and claim its morality is logically proven. It goes much further - it claims the only moral economic system is laissez faire capitalism, for instance, through whatever torturous chain of logic.

I would suggest Objectivism is philosophy for narcissists, probably because Ayn Rand was almost certainly a colossal narcissist herself. Philosophers, after all, like to describe reality according to their own gut instinct. It's catnip for people who think they are cleverer and more special than other people - it tells them how awesome they are and how much other people who disagree with them suck - those naysayers aren't just wrong, they're immoral. There's a mean-spiritedness in there too. Ayn Rand's deadly leaden magnus opus, Atlas Shrugged, gleefully delights in the deaths of a load of people she considered immoral. She defended the mass slaughter and dispossession of the native Americans because... oh, it goes something like that because they hadn't developed property rights, their culture was totally immoral. Gross simplification from me there, but not so inaccurate.

Objectivism is also funny because it was run, and to some extent still is, like a cult. Ayn Rand did not tolerate anyone disagreeing with her, so she collected a bunch of acolytes who had to obey or they were exiled from her circle. And you ever meet an Objectivist, they have a slightly disturbing tendency to lord over you their logical superiority, boast about how much philosophy they know, and call you an ignorant idiot who doesn't understand the genius if you point out any of the (many) flaws on Objectivism. They act with a sort of exaggerated tone of logical rigour, which is one of the reason they're called "Randroids". Hey, we might even find one of the few Objectivist crusaders still around will spot this and choose to weigh in. To be fair, they're not all bad - I've had a couple of pleasant and reasonable ones turn up randomly and weigh in on debates, but they're the minority.

Ayn Rand handed over her estate to a supremely loyal but mediocre guy called Leonard Peikoff, who has continued the trend of exiling deviants. As a result, any Objectivists who did have somewhere useful to go philosophically - basically by merging and diluting Objectivism with proper philosophy - have been ostracised. Core, Randian Objectivism has thus withered intellectually. However, much as it may be an intellectual dead-end, it has of course had a very considerable societal impact, chiefly on elements of the right wing for its espousal of capitalism, hostility to government, disinterest in the poor, etc.
 

EvilRoy

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Well on its face its just not a great marketing stance. Like, arguing that what is essentially selfishness is morally correct stance isn't going to win you many popularity contents - because people either don't agree with you and vote against you because they think you're a tool, or they do agree with you and they voted for themselves instead.

If we bust into the ideas behind Objectivism, there's just a lot of holes and a lot of it falls into weirdness basically because she had a bunch of political opinions and arguments and went from that to producing a philosophy (instead of the other way around which is kind of the standard).

But okay, that is a complaint about Rand not really following form and hey maybe she had great ideas and she just wasn't great at presenting them (Atlas Shrugged is basically like a socratean/plateoanianian Dialogue with a lot of fluff and poorly written).

All that aside, lets talk about the concept of rational self interest and why its awesome until its not. Basically rational self interest is people acting in their own long term self interest at all times. Bioshock talked about what happens when there is no regulation and powerful madmen go madder and oh its terrible and mutations and ugh. Now let me say that a lot of what happened in Bioshock involved using other people as a means to an end which is bad form in objectivism - the philosophy basically says you're not supposed to do it and there should be a government to protect people from doing this to eachother. That is, of course, stupid. If we could convince everyone to play nice all the time it wouldn't matter what economic or political system we had, it would just work.

Now, aside from that specific issue we do have other problems. Rational self interest says yes to personal long term success, no to using others as a means to and end (weird how all the dbags who read objectivism miss that point), yes to fully unregulated market capitalism, and hey everything works out pretty cool. It is entirely possible to obey all those rules and neatly end an Objectivist society. Basically, you make money until you have all the money and then, acting in rational self interest, you use that money to take over the society. Skidoosh, Objectivism worked right up until it became a threat to my personal self interest and wa-hey now I'm powerful enough that the government can't stop me from hurting others. Honestly if you think of proto-society and then say "how could I make this into a monarchy", this would do it. The most successful self interested individual shoots ahead of the others and takes over.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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altnameJag said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Lil devils x said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Saelune said:
Did you play Bioshock? Cause that game is basically 'What if Ayn Rand made her own paradise?'

Note: Ayn Rand = Andrew Ryan.
"I built a city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality, where the great would not be constrained by the small."
Since morality isn't an issue, and I deem you have the correct genetic parameters for my testing, I should be able to just drug and kidnap you and perform painful tests on you against your will because it will benefit the advancement of science. If you do not see that as "proper criticism and counter-argument against Randian Philosophy" I am not sure what to tell you. May you be first in line for the tests necessary to advance science faster then.

Considering trying to not hurt the test subjects and provide them with pain medication for their discomfort is only necessary due to morality and is otherwise considered wasteful of time and resources, the test subject's suffering is irrelevant without ethical objections.
I wonder what Randian Philosophy thinks of Hospitals and Health Care...
Wonder no longer: Healthcare is not a right, socialized medicine is enslaving doctors, die in the street if you can't get charity
https://ari.aynrand.org/issues/government-and-business/health-care/Health-Care-is-Not-a-Right
Basically: "Go cure your illness and heal your wounds and injuries yourself you filthy casual parasite"
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Lil devils x said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Lil devils x said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Saelune said:
Did you play Bioshock? Cause that game is basically 'What if Ayn Rand made her own paradise?'

Note: Ayn Rand = Andrew Ryan.
"I built a city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality, where the great would not be constrained by the small."
Since morality isn't an issue, and I deem you have the correct genetic parameters for my testing, I should be able to just drug and kidnap you and perform painful tests on you against your will because it will benefit the advancement of science. If you do not see that as "proper criticism and counter-argument against Randian Philosophy" I am not sure what to tell you. May you be first in line for the tests necessary to advance science faster then.

Considering trying to not hurt the test subjects and provide them with pain medication for their discomfort is only necessary due to morality and is otherwise considered wasteful of time and resources, the test subject's suffering is irrelevant without ethical objections.
I wonder what Randian Philosophy thinks of Hospitals and Health Care...
Considering what Ayan Rand thought of the disabled and their promotion of eugenics and superior humans that would not need public assistance, and since doctors must put others before self in order to place themselves in harms way in order to treat patients, it would be in doctors self interests to charge what they like to the individual and treat only who they choose to treat and let the rest fend for themselves right?

Although Ayn Rand riled against social security and other public support, she also received social security herself when she was too disabled to fend for herself as well. TBH I see her as a pretty disgusting person and I have no idea why you would promote such a person.
I am not necessarily promoting her as more of me asking a question about the nature of her philosophy.

Because so far Objectivism (Rand's philosophy) seems like the complete polar opposite of Communism.

I can only imagine what would a Objectivist Government and Society would look like, OTHER then Rapture and grounded in reality.
 

Agema

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Samtemdo8 said:
The basic jist I get from Ayn Randian philosophy is that special and talented people are being held back by societal norms and conformity. And strive to overcome the norms and conformity.
Ayn Rand said:
"In answer to those philosophers who claim that no relation can be established between ultimate ends or values and the facts of reality, let me stress that the fact that living entities exist and function necessitates the existence of values and of an ultimate value which for any given living entity is its own life. Thus the validation of value judgments is to be achieved by reference to the facts of reality. The fact that a living entity is, determines what it ought to do. So much for the issue of the relation between ?is? and ?ought.?
Here is where Ayn Rand hits Hume's is-ought problem and tries to argue against it (declining, oddly enough, to actually cite him explicitly). It's a stripped down version as I recall - the full argument is explained at more length, but it has all we need.

So, "let me stress that the fact that living entities exist and function necessitates the existence of values and of an ultimate value which for any given living entity is its own life"

Now, I would argue from a biological perspective that if living entities have a function, it's reproduction. A spider or an octopus is a living entity, and reproduction kills them. To pursue their own life, they would necessarily not breed. Thus this statement seems to me to fail meet reality, despite the futile claim of "reference to the facts of reality".

Let's also bear in mind that this remarkable claim also suggests a parent should not sacrifice themselves for their own child, as to do so would be immoral. Wowzers.

"The fact that a living entity is, determines what it ought to do."

This isn't a logical argument. It's just stating something pretending to be an argument and hoping you'll believe it.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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Samtemdo8 said:
Lil devils x said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Lil devils x said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Saelune said:
Did you play Bioshock? Cause that game is basically 'What if Ayn Rand made her own paradise?'

Note: Ayn Rand = Andrew Ryan.
"I built a city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality, where the great would not be constrained by the small."
Since morality isn't an issue, and I deem you have the correct genetic parameters for my testing, I should be able to just drug and kidnap you and perform painful tests on you against your will because it will benefit the advancement of science. If you do not see that as "proper criticism and counter-argument against Randian Philosophy" I am not sure what to tell you. May you be first in line for the tests necessary to advance science faster then.

Considering trying to not hurt the test subjects and provide them with pain medication for their discomfort is only necessary due to morality and is otherwise considered wasteful of time and resources, the test subject's suffering is irrelevant without ethical objections.
I wonder what Randian Philosophy thinks of Hospitals and Health Care...
Considering what Ayan Rand thought of the disabled and their promotion of eugenics and superior humans that would not need public assistance, and since doctors must put others before self in order to place themselves in harms way in order to treat patients, it would be in doctors self interests to charge what they like to the individual and treat only who they choose to treat and let the rest fend for themselves right?

Although Ayn Rand riled against social security and other public support, she also received social security herself when she was too disabled to fend for herself as well. TBH I see her as a pretty disgusting person and I have no idea why you would promote such a person.
I am not necessarily promoting her as more of me asking a question about the nature of her philosophy.

Because so far Objectivism (Rand's philosophy) seems like the complete polar opposite of Communism.

I can only imagine what would a Objectivist Government and Society would look like, OTHER then Rapture and grounded in reality.
Implemented in reality though mankind would cease to exist. Ayn Rand did not have children as even being a parent means to put other's before self and that is the opposite of what she teaches. In addition, no one would have any reason to teach the skills necessary for them to survive to others as they have no moral obligation to ensure other's survive at all to begin with. Ayn Rand's ignorant ramblings are in opposition to the survival of mankind, not just Communism.
 

jademunky

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Also, people would probably be more sympathetic if giant parts of Atlas Shrugged were not also essentially a Harlequin romance novel. Even that might be generous, 50-shades might be more accurate.
 

Smithnikov_v1legacy

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Ayn Rand is a piece of shit.

She wrote love letters and expressed admiration for William Hickman, a career criminal who abducted, tortured, and dismembered a 12 year old girl, culminating in him leaving the kid's torso at her parent's doorstep.

This man was the Jesus figure of her fucked up religion.