Poll: 2nd Amendment bug you? Me too.

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Dfskelleton

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But then criminals will still aquire firearms, although with a bit more difficulty, and normal citizens will have no defense against these guys. I know it sounds like it would drop the death by firearm rate greatly, but it will probably end up increasing it.
 

captaincabbage

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Popadoo said:
When it says the Right to Bear Arms, it means you have the right to own a pair of arms from a bear. I don't see why people think this gives them the right to have guns.
How could anyone misunderstand that?
 

philzibit

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May 25, 2009
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No, it shouldn't be changed.

A. Most people that buy a gun(s) legally use them legally (hunting, collecting, or buying, never using, and forgetting about it.) The old saying comes to mind "If we outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them."

B. Most states have their own individual laws about guns. In Illinois, for example, it's illegal for a citizen to own an automatic. So, the 2nd amendment is fine, it's up the individual state to govern it's laws.

C. I would wager that most gun-related deaths were by guns owned illegally.

D. Bear Arms!
 

moretimethansense

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Woodsey said:
moretimethansense said:
Woodsey said:
moretimethansense said:
Woodsey said:
moretimethansense said:
Woodsey said:
The guns are irrelevant - invading the US is a ridiculous thing to attempt anyway (which was my point). Invading a country is also illegal and attempting to invade arguably the most powerful nation on the planet is beyond moronic.
You said that the civillians would be fucked if they were attacked by the military, even the American military only has about 1.4 million currently in servce, the 2nd amendment is still relevent if they want to overthrow the govornment when it gets uppity.

EDIT
Also "invading a country is illegal" then explain iraq.
That was an incredibly stuopid thing to say.
Invading a country is illegal, and that's why there's currently an ongoing inquiry into the legality of the Iraq war. Of course, the Iraq war isn't intended as a territory grab so it's not in the same bag as invading a country because you want it's land, which is why it's up for debate. It's not stupid (STUPID, not stuopid, stupid), it's true. Try fucking checking next time.

And I posted my last post before finishing my write up, so my edit goes into the hypothetical situation of an invasion force capable of actually taking over the US.

I can't believe you're 21, yet know nothing of current affairs, and lack the ability to even look things up.
1)
Who exactly is going to enforce the illegality of an invasion?
I'm pretty sure that there isn't a large superpower out there with a ruler keeping an eye on the rule breakers.
There is no way in hell you haven't heard of the United Nations.
You mean that orginization of corrupt jackasses that have a list of human rights violations longer than the Las Vegas strip?

I've heard of them, but I somhow doubt they'd ever actually do something, for example if the Iraq war is found to be unjustified and illegal can you really imagine the US pulling out?
And do you really think the UN would actually do anything if they didn't?
That can depend on a large number of factors, although earlier I was rather referring to the Chilcot Inquiry, and of course, since you're so knowledgeable I won't have to explain what that is.

And no, maybe the UN couldn't/wouldn't enforce it at all should they feel the need to investiage the legality of the war, but invading a country is still illegal, which was the original point you called me stupid for.
A law is only a law if someone is willing to enforce it.
And I didn't call you stupid I called the Idea of war(*) being illegal stupid, and I stand by that claim.

I've already admitted that my knowledge of current events is limited, so there was no need to be snide.

Also I spent some time looking for a source regarding the charges of corruption but I couldn't find a suitable one, I will retract my comment regarding that for now.

EDIT (*) sorry Invasion of a country, not war.

EDIT 2: While I'd like to continue this chat I need to be up early tomorrow so I'm going to bed, if you wish to go on it may take me a while to respond.
 

Comrade_Beric

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May 10, 2010
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The right to bare arms has nothing to do with crime prevention or for protection from outside invasion.

The American 2nd Amendment has been cited many times as among the most ambiguous of all of the Amendments to their constitution. In one breath it seemingly begins by clarifying that it is addressing the issue to that of rules regarding Militias, an outdated and largely unremembered institution, and in the next suddenly seems to be talking about all people in general. This seems contradictory to many people and some believe that this opens the statement to interpretation. This, however, is not really so. The Amendment is actually quite clear and not contradictorily at all, it simply uses antiquated language to convey its message and it is from a lack of understanding of that language which causes ambiguity.

Hopefully I can help explain what is going on with the Amendment itself. I have my own opinion of whether the rights is contains are valid or not, but this is unimportant as long as one does not understand what the statement itself is actually talking about.

First, let's focus on the most confusing word in the sentence:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

When these words were written, there was no such thing as a modern police force. The concept of the "police force" was a product of the industrial revolution and simply had not been invented yet at the time. Instead, the arm of the government meant to arrest people and hold them were the Militias, civilians called up by the government for the purpose of enforcing its laws. The institutionalization of militias into a uniformed law enforcement is where modern police come from.

Understanding that Militias at the time fulfilled the same role as police do today, it may be helpful to read the Amendment again with modern wording in place of its logical equivalent. To wit:

"A well regulated Police Force, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Now, let us focus on the second unclear portion of the wording. What does the word "regulated" mean? The word is still in common use today, particularly in terms of banks and corporations, but still its meaning had not changed much in the last 250 years. Regulation means, basically, "to restrict, control, or impose limiting rules upon." This makes sense because there is no such thing as regulating an industry by telling them "go nuts." Point of fact, the removing of rules against a body is known as "deregulation."

Understanding that Regulated, in this sense, means basically controlled or restrained, we can once again replace the outdated terminology in the sentence with a logical modern equivalent. To wit:

"A well restrained Police Force, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Now, in order to make sure that we are, in fact, not changing the meaning of the statement itself, we should check our interpretation against the historical background of the original statement. In 1791 the people of the American Colonies had, less than a decade before, just ended it's long struggle with it's own government. Until that time, they were not a separate country at all, but simply a collection of highly rebellious colonies. They had taken arms against their own government in an attempt to replace it with another, more local, one and had succeeded, much to the surprise of most observers. When it came time to write the rules of this new local unified government, among their highest priorities was to ensure that this new government be restrained in a way that they wished their previous government had been. Among these was the ability for the government to disarm its populace forcefully. Their Imperial government had attempted to evoke this right by seizing and destroying the civilian armory in Concord, Massachusetts, the defense of which became the opening battle of the war. Once the war was finished and the rules for their new government were being forged, there was widespread opposition to the creation of a constitution at all. The fear being that if the government were created and given powers over the people, then it would inevitably be abused in the same way. The Bill of Rights, in its entirety, was the response to that criticism, by codifying a list of regulations, ways in which the government could not use its power against its citizens. Among the first things they listed was the second amendment which addresses that exact issue.

People have a right to their own opinions, but they do not have a right to their own facts. Your opinion of whether or not people have the right to possess weapons is your own, but the meaning of the amendment itself is not in question.
 

Woodsey

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moretimethansense said:
Woodsey said:
moretimethansense said:
Woodsey said:
moretimethansense said:
Woodsey said:
moretimethansense said:
Woodsey said:
The guns are irrelevant - invading the US is a ridiculous thing to attempt anyway (which was my point). Invading a country is also illegal and attempting to invade arguably the most powerful nation on the planet is beyond moronic.
You said that the civillians would be fucked if they were attacked by the military, even the American military only has about 1.4 million currently in servce, the 2nd amendment is still relevent if they want to overthrow the govornment when it gets uppity.

EDIT
Also "invading a country is illegal" then explain iraq.
That was an incredibly stuopid thing to say.
Invading a country is illegal, and that's why there's currently an ongoing inquiry into the legality of the Iraq war. Of course, the Iraq war isn't intended as a territory grab so it's not in the same bag as invading a country because you want it's land, which is why it's up for debate. It's not stupid (STUPID, not stuopid, stupid), it's true. Try fucking checking next time.

And I posted my last post before finishing my write up, so my edit goes into the hypothetical situation of an invasion force capable of actually taking over the US.

I can't believe you're 21, yet know nothing of current affairs, and lack the ability to even look things up.
1)
Who exactly is going to enforce the illegality of an invasion?
I'm pretty sure that there isn't a large superpower out there with a ruler keeping an eye on the rule breakers.
There is no way in hell you haven't heard of the United Nations.
You mean that orginization of corrupt jackasses that have a list of human rights violations longer than the Las Vegas strip?

I've heard of them, but I somhow doubt they'd ever actually do something, for example if the Iraq war is found to be unjustified and illegal can you really imagine the US pulling out?
And do you really think the UN would actually do anything if they didn't?
That can depend on a large number of factors, although earlier I was rather referring to the Chilcot Inquiry, and of course, since you're so knowledgeable I won't have to explain what that is.

And no, maybe the UN couldn't/wouldn't enforce it at all should they feel the need to investiage the legality of the war, but invading a country is still illegal, which was the original point you called me stupid for.
A law is only a law if someone is willing to enforce it.
And I didn't call you stupid I called the Idea of war(*) being illegal stupid, and I stand by that claim.

I've already admitted that my knowledge of current events is limited, so there was no need to be snide.

Also I spent some time looking for a source regarding the charges of corruption but I couldn't find a suitable one, I will retract my comment regarding that for now.

EDIT (*) sorry Invasion of a country, not war.

EDIT 2: While I'd like to continue this chat I need to be up early tomorrow so I'm going to bed, if you wish to go on it may take me a while to respond.
The inference was that you were calling me stupid by calling the idea of it stupid. And it is still illegal, and I imagine it would be enforced in some way - probably through way of a (massive) fine, limitations placed on the military, whatever. Same things that happened to Germany after the second world war.

The Iraq war is arguably justifiable and is harder to prove misinformation was used as an excuse.
 

Wereduck

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FFHAuthor said:
IF the Second Amendment is out-dated, then what about the first? Freedom of Speach and Freedom of the Press were far different matters in the 18th century than they are today. Free speach then meant words traded in a bar, not discussions that go around the planet. Freedom of the Press was for newspapers that barely reached an entire city, let alone a 24 hour news network.

Honestly people, you can't pick and chose which parts of the consitution you follow, you start saying 'we need to get rid of the second amendment' then what's next? Speach? Religon? The press? Protection from search and siezure? Trial by jury? Which one?
I think it bears mentioning here that the right to bear arms is the only part of the Bill of Rights that has its justification explicitly stated in the Constitution. It exists only because of the need for a civilian militia.
The obsolescence of an untrained civilian militia has already been discussed above, I'm just pointing out that there is an objective distinction between the right to bear arms and the other rights you mention. It's not quite the slippery slope you suggest. Besides, we already have and still do restrict freedom of speech and religion but that's an argument for another thread.

Also, the "when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns" argument, although reasonable, is not borne out by the facts. There are more than a few countries with strict gun control which are not overrun by gangs of criminals with machine guns. Conversely, there are legitimate reasons for a civilian to own a gun, especially in areas where there isn't a cop on every other street corner.

My own opinion is that we need gun control but not an outright ban; no automatics or derringers, restricting who they're sold to - especially concealable handguns, licensing and registration of owners, but especially that licenses should require training - and a damn sight more stringent than the skill level required for drivers' licenses. A great deal of the firearms mishaps which occur could be avoided if the owners knew what they were doing, rather than just having clean criminal records.
 

MagicMouse

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Number of active and reserve U.S military personnel = ~3million
Number of American civilians with at least one gun = ~80million

The goal of an oppressive government is not to kill, it is to oppress. It would be impossible to control that many armed citizens, not even taking into account the defections that would take place in the military.

It is VERY hard to own an automatic weapon, very few people do, and they are HEAVILY regulated.

Criminals don't buy guns from gun stores. They get them ILLEGALLY. Therefore no amount of regulation will inhibit them, making the laws useless.

I believe that I have addressed every one of you arguments so...no, I don't think your views are justified.

*Edited to remove double negative*
 

lumenadducere

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May 19, 2008
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Terminate421 said:
It seems that you do not like civilians owning a fire arm.

When America gets invaded, I don't want to have to use a kitchen knife to fight off who ever it is that is bombing our country. Therefore, I think it is a right to own a gun, even if it is a shitty one, it can make a much larger differance the one thinks.

Also, calling Gun Collectors ones "Who collect tools of death is questionable" is ironic, people collect many things, why is it questionable towards fire arms

As for the 2nd Amendment, I feel that it is fine the way it is. Gun Control is impossible, fixing something that isn't broken isn't the answer.
When America gets invaded? What? I'm sorry, but that's silly. Maybe you should pay less attention to crazy people who tell you we're on the brink of being invaded by foreign troops.

As for the collection: a) that's not irony and b) collecting weapons is very different than collecting stamps or coins. Not that I'm saying you shouldn't collect guns, mind you - you're completely free to do whatever you'd like with your money and I personally have no problem with it. But you should at least try to see why others feel differently.

And there's a difference between complete gun control (which yes, is impossible) and revision. Given the violence seen in big cities and the availability of certain excessive weaponry, I can see how limiting availability of certain guns and implementing things like paperwork and registration would be beneficial. There are parts of the states where if you go to a gun show and you've got cash it's extremely easy to walk out of there with a weapon no questions asked. I don't see how making it so that's not the case would hurt anyone.
 

Ravek

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Lawnmowers don't mow lawns, people do!

Except that no one would mow their lawn if they had to do so with scissors.
 

Comrade_Beric

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May 10, 2010
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Wereduck said:
I think it bears mentioning here that the right to bear arms is the only part of the Bill of Rights that has its justification explicitly stated in the Constitution. It exists only because of the need for a civilian militia.
I actually covered that just before your own post. The amendment is meant to limit militia from removing your weapons, not to allow militias to have weapons. That interpretation, despite its growing acceptance, makes no logical or grammatical sense as a derivative of the second amendment.
 

manaman

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Wintermute_ said:
In regards to the second half of that statement, if the U.S. government today suddenly was ridiculously oppressive, enough to warrant a revolution of some kind, sorry to tell you that U.S. citizens would be screwed. As the owners of the most powerful military in the world, average, untrained citizens armed with pistols, rifles, and maybe some semi or automatic weapons are not going to defeat the well trained, organized, supplied, well armed, and massive U.S. army. It would not happen. We would need bazookas, jets, tanks, the best automatic weaponry, and a lot of ammo. We reasonably can't give those to citizens. Why give them light weight guns that usually end up in the perpetration of crimes instead?
As a former member of the military I take exception to your believe that the entire military is mindless enough that they would actually fight against their fellow countrymen should it actually come to that.

The only part of the 2nd amendment that is out of date is the part about the militia. A militia in that regards is no longer needed. However I am glad you recognize that the 2nd amendment exists and does guarantee people the right to keep and bear arms, and that the constitution would need to be amended before guns could be removed from the hands of the people. Personal I think the 2nd amendment is a good thing, but I can understand conflicting opinions especially among those that have only seen guns in the movies and never experienced firing one before. Sadly those that disagree usually try to argue away the 2nd amendment or fail to even acknowledge it exists.

RatRace123 said:
It needs some revision, but in a society where everyone and their dog has a gun you need to have one too, if only to avoid being under dressed.
That is completely false. Half the households in the US have firearms sure, but you think every single person that owns a gun carries? Might surprise you how many of those guns are long guns.

As far as I am concerned people focus far to much on the negative impact of firearms without looking at the entire picture. It's easy to say one murder with the weapon is one to many, but how many traffic accidents are to many? More specifically how many drunk drivers need to kill before you eliminate alcohol? Drunk drivers kill more each year then murders by firearms (since only around 1% of the deaths by firearms come from self defense let's throw those in there as well, it's still less). More people die in traffic accidents each year then are killed by firearms period. This includes suicides which make up 55% of the deaths by firearm each year.

It's hard to get a perfectly accurate fix on how many crimes are prevented each year but several studies taking police reports into account find that less then 8% of the time a gun is used in defense (possibly as low as 1% of the time) is the weapon actually fired, which by all indications shows civilians are less trigger happy then the police. Police fire as often as 30% of the time, which shows that don't rely on their firearm as often for defense as much as it shows they fire more often.

The problem with accurately fixing the numbers down is that as many as half of the time a weapon is used in defense the sight of the weapon is enough to prevent the crime and no police report is even filed by the person. Still even with the figures from the police reports it seems more crimes are actually prevent then occur due to firearms. You also have to factor in how many of the crimes that occurred where the criminal was armed would have still occurred without firearms. To me it seems the population being armed quite possibly saves more lives then are lost.
 

AshuraSpeaks

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Falqour said:
Radeonx said:
most criminals that end up getting their hands on some type of gun don't do it legally
A law to complicate or prohibit gun ownership in the US would likely only affect law abiding citizens, and do nothing to hamper a criminal's ability to own a gun.
Also known as "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns."
 

'Stache

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GeorgW said:
The reason it exist is to make sure that the government can never suppress the populus, like the case of the French revolution. It's a great idea, but the way it's being upheld is outdated.
High-five.
 

Wereduck

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Lord_Beric said:
I actually covered that just before your own post. The amendment is meant to limit militia from removing your weapons, not to allow militias to have weapons. That interpretation, despite its growing acceptance, makes no logical or grammatical sense as a derivative of the second amendment.
Yes, I read it and it's an interesting context that I'll need some time to assimilate into my own thinking on the issue. You've obviously put a lot of thought into your position but since the militia is a civilian organization doesn't the statement also make sense if the citizens who must be permitted to bear arms are the militia?
 

SilverUchiha

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Popadoo said:
When it says the Right to Bear Arms, it means you have the right to own a pair of arms from a bear. I don't see why people think this gives them the right to have guns.
OH! That's what that meant! See, I was under the impression that it was the right to "BARE" arms, meaning I could wear a T-shirt. Silly me.

OT: Seriously, why are you upset about the 2nd amendment OP? If responsible people want to own a gun, I say let them. I do think the amendment should be revised to be more specific so people don't keep knives at each others throats about the issue (see what I did there?). Maybe revise it every other decade if techonology has advanced enough. This way, when lasers come around, we can add those to the "safe to own" list.

But back to what I was originally saying, if I can't live in a country that denies me the right to wear a T-shirt, then it is not a country I wish to be a part of. I HAVE RIGHTS!
 

Imat

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Interesting fact: The Violent Crime (of which murder is a part) rate in 2006 was lowest in Maine. The gun-control laws are incredibly lax in Maine. Correlation.

Also consider that most people are less likely to commit said Violent Crimes when confronted with an armed opponent. With a concealed weapon clause, the potential criminals may not know whether or not their victim has a concealed firearm, making the crime even less likely overall. Not really proof of causation, but it is something to consider.

And criminals won't care about the same gun laws. They'll get the weapons anyways. If they're planning to commit murder, a potential fine for having an automatic weapon won't deter them.
 

son_of_x51

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Mar 28, 2009
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It seems all of the major talking points of both sides have already been made, so I won't bother going into a ten page explanation of my views (which I easily could do). I'll just give my quick answer.

To give an idea of where I'm coming from, I have strong Libertarian leanings. It is my opinion that people should be allowed to do as they please so long as they are not directly infringing upon the rights of another. It follows naturally from this that there should be few, if any, laws regulating firearms. If I want to own several fully automatic rifles, how does that harm you? So what if I don't "need" them (by your arbitrary standards)? It is my business and my business alone.

That said, things like murder should still obviously be illegal. But it is the act of murder that should be outlawed, not the owning of the gun used to commit it. Now I know people will want to get into the debate of accessibility of firearms to people with ill intent, but I don't buy that argument for a second (see previous paragraph).
 

willsham45

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Look I said it before and I will say it again.

More Guns = Less Gun Crimes

look at countries with gun bans they have huge gun problems. This sort of situation could apply to many places but lets say a convenience store. If you knew they have a gun behind the counter I would not rob it, If There was a possibility they had a gun I would not rob it. If I knew 90% that they did not have a gun holding the store a gun point sounds like an easy picking.

If you are in the middle of town and a cyco gets out a gun and starts shooting people what do you do wait for the police to do it or get your gun out and put him down...or stop him from shooting at least...