Poll: 2nd Amendment bug you? Me too.

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Wing Dairu

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Jul 21, 2010
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Think about when this was written. The US had just fought a major war with a world superpower. Wouldn't you think they'd want to make sure they could do it again?

Plus, LAWS don't apply to criminals. You think that if someone's going to commit MURDER they're going to bother going through all the red tape required to get a gun? NO! The only thing these laws are doing is making it harder for honest, law-abiding citizens to get hold of them; and what are you going to do when only the criminals have guns?
 

Mr.Mattress

Level 2 Lumberjack
Jul 17, 2009
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I will be the first to say "It's way to Easy to get a gun in the United States"... But I'll be damned if I say "We shouldn't have any guns". I believe the 2nd Amendment Guarantee's our rights, as American Citizens, to own a Weapon, and even though it was a 5-4 ruling, both times, the Supreme Court has also said the 2nd Amendment protects Guns. I don't care if it was only a reference to Revolutionary Times, or that Society has changed, or that the Founding Fathers had no Idea how quickly guns would evolve, or any of that crud. The 2nd Amendment is still in the Constitution, and as long as it stands, we have guns (And Militia's too).
 

Jake0fTrades

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Jun 5, 2008
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JRiseley said:
Buchholz101 said:
Anything larger than a hunting rifle is a bit extreme, and I can understand restricting such weapons, but most hardened criminals don't get their firearms legally anyway, a small handgun would ideally help an innocent citizen protect themselves from attackers.

And have you ever fired a gun? Smelt the burnt powder and felt the kick? That's not something I want to lose--ever.
Sorry, you pulled the 'illegal criminal weapons' concept out of your arse. It isn't the case. Source, please?
I didn't happen to see your source, ever heard of the "Black Market"? No one with a criminal record can walk into a gun store and ask for a weapon.
 

BioHazardMan

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Sep 22, 2009
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The Man With the Soap said:
BioHazardMan said:
The Man With the Soap said:
The U.S. military is not nearly as large as people seem to think.
Yeah there is only over a million people in the military. It's not that large.
When you look at the size of our general populace, it's not that large.
That's irrelevant. Most countries don't have a military one fourth our size, not to mention our technology.
 

Gilhelmi

The One Who Protects
Oct 22, 2009
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At time of post

58% in favor of second amendment

Yes, I am the majority opinion.

You do not like it, move to Canada or the UK. Stop trying to take away my God/Nirvana given rights. I am a Christian/Buddhist Pacifist who only draws in self defense.
 

Kanazuchi

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Aug 20, 2008
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I like guns. I don't own one, but I still like them. (A .177 pellet air gun doesn't count.) It means that someone who tries to mug me has to gamble on whether or not I have one. Someone breaking into my house has to take into account I may be armed. For some, that's enough deterrent.
 

Snooder

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May 12, 2008
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The first thing we need to do when discussing gun control is to clearly outline the pros and cons of the situation. In other words, we need to first list the reasons why gun control is 'needed' and the problems for which gun control will be a solution. Next, we need to list the effects that gun control will likely have and the civil liberties infringed upon by any such law. And then finally, we need to figure out how to craft legislation that fulfills the first set of objectives while doing as little harm as possible with the second. In this case, if we are talking about the repeal of the 2nd amendment, we need to characterize the legislation as "granting government total and unfettered ability to ban gun use among anyone for any reason at any time"


Pro:
"Gun control will save lives." This is the primary reason, in fact usually the ONLY reason, why people advocate infringing on the right to bear arms. However, when we look at this element, we see that it needs further clarification. How exactly will it save lives? Whose lives? How many lives?

There are several different types of people killed by guns. Roughly speaking, they fall into 4 different broad categories. Robbery/premeditated murder victims, victims of rage violence, victims of mass shootings, and accidents. By 'rage violence' i mean everyone killed by someone in a fit of rage but not a premeditated crime, i.e. road rage, or getting killed in a bar, or a man shooting his cheating wife. As noted by others in this thread, these categories are affecting differently by gun control.
Gun control will have zero effect on robbery/premeditated murder or on mass shootings. If someone is planning to commit a crime already, the added penalty of using an illegal weapon to do it isn't going to deter them at all. At best, they'll simply switch to a different weapon like explosives or poison to achieve their objective. Oklahoma City killed way more people than that idiot in Tucson ever could and no guns were used there.
Gun control's effect on rage violence as well is fairly minimal. Contrary to what some people think, guns aren't the only way to kill someone. Before firearms were invented, people committed the same stupid crimes and did it just fine with their bare hands. Really, the only effect would be that the victim would almost always be a physically weak person, usually a woman, and a large, strong attacker would have less difficulty subduing an unarmed victim. So we'd just convert a lot of rage shootings into rage beatings-to-death or rage stabbings. Not precisely a laudable goal.
Where gun control WOULD have a significant effect is in the area of accidents. However, the question later on is whether preventing accidental shootings is worth the cost. And no, "every life is precious" isn't valid. Encroachment upon fundamental civil liberties is often more important than a single life, or even a few lives. "Give me liberty or give me death" as it were.

Cons:
And here is where we look at the detrimental effect of gun control. This comes in two basic flavors. Immediate effects and long term effects. The immediate effects are things like lack of self-defense or a rise in black market trading of weapons. The simple truth is that we don't really have accurate statistics on just what the immediate effects will be. However, we DO have a study that indicate that guns were used defensively 2.5million times annually, and a study that shows that gun-owners are less likely to be injured in a robbery or assault than non-gun-owning victims. So, given these statistics, and basic common sense, one would have to admit that the immediate effect would include a rise in people being unable to defend themselves from criminals. The second immediate effect would most likely be a rise in crime, specifically the illegal sale of firearms. History has shown that whenever a prohibition on something goes into effect, the first result is almost never the total elimination of that thing, but usually a rise in flouting the law. We've seen this with drugs and alcohol, and even more directly with weapons in the American Revolution and the Jacobin Rebellion (even when the brits completely banned all weapons from the scots, they still managed to hide anything and everything they could). At best, law enforcement will just ignore the law, at worst we'll see a thriving smuggling trade.

And then we have the "long term" effects. The truth is that the constitution, despite its age, was a rather forward thinking document. Many of its protections and privileges are not designed for the best case, or for the normal case, but for the worst case. When most people think of gun control, they are thinking of right now and of reasonable restrictions. But that's not what the 2nd amendment was written for. The 2nd amendment was written for when the American Nazi party comes into power and starts rounding up people. It was written to prevent laws like "All blacks and hispanics can't own guns". It was written to safeguard the ability of the individual to protect himself and his freedoms when the government is unable or unwilling to do it for him. Being able to defend yourself is as fundamental a right as being able to speak freely. In fact, the ability to speak freely does not exist without the right to defend yourself. Sure, while the courts are free and working, you can rely on them to protect you. But what happens when they aren't? Too late then no?
 

bl4ckh4wk64

Walking Mass Effect Codex
Jun 11, 2010
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What about self defense?
No?

How about just going down to the range and shooting off a couple of rounds?
I know I'm probably going to sound bad saying this, but there's nothing in this world more empowering than firing a high-powered rifle. I don't care if it's not fully automatic, it's fun and I like it. Guns teach responsibility, you have to clean and maintain them in order to be able to use them.

Since I'm probably not getting through to the fanatical "guns are bad" people, I'd like to leave a few pictures and some quotes.






And now the quotes:
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are only good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-Robert A. Heinlein

"If you make guns illegal, only criminals will own them."
-unknown

And a latin phrase:
"Si vis pacem, para bellum"
If you seek peace, prepare for war.
 

BioHazardMan

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Sep 22, 2009
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Father Time said:
BioHazardMan said:
The Man With the Soap said:
BioHazardMan said:
The Man With the Soap said:
The U.S. military is not nearly as large as people seem to think.
Yeah there is only over a million people in the military. It's not that large.
When you look at the size of our general populace, it's not that large.
That's irrelevant. Most countries don't have a military one fourth our size, not to mention our technology.
Most countries seem to have an proportional to their population. So it is relevant.
An proportional?
 

Gilhelmi

The One Who Protects
Oct 22, 2009
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tellmeimaninja said:
America is difficult to invade. Really fucking difficult. They don't really need militia.

And America's not going to need civilians with assault rifles to defend themselves, now that they have one of the biggest, most annoying military forces around.

And fuck the law-abiding citizen shit. You're law abiding until you get pissed off and shoot someone down.
I think China could with the help of Russia.

I am not saying it is going to happen. But it could happen.

Also, the second amendment gives the people the ability to overthrow the government if the need arises. Now I do not think our government is that bad. But it could happen.

If you do not prepare of the possibilities then you will be caught with you pants down and get you killed.
 

Lord Legion

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Feb 26, 2010
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Any other amendments you wanna 'revise'? Maybe since you have absolute faith in the government, you want to get rid of that pesky little first one...

The USA will not last forever. Also, you seem to be under the impression that people are just bursting with goodwill and kindness until a gun is placed into their hands, in which case they promptly morph into rapists, murderers, and thieves.

I will say this though, people need to be educated more. And not just in gun safety.
 

stone0042

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Apr 10, 2009
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I have two basic views on this. One is from a practical viewpoint: there is no need for the type of firepower currently allowed, and we should restrict firearms to only those necessary for hunting purposes. The other viewpoint is thus: the constitution was written by revolutionists, who respected the fact that any government would probably eventually need to be overthrown. Relieving our second amendment rights would severely restrict our ability to do so if it ever becomes necessary. Not that I think it is currently, far from it, but giving up this right could be seen as the first step towards a higher degree of control.
 

Kunzer

Press R to cause ragequit
Jul 14, 2008
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As long as I am permitted to own a firearm of my choosing, and keep it with me when I am in my home or on my land, such that I might defend myself from those who would invade my property with the intent to cause death or bodily harm to me or my loved ones then I am perfectly happy.

I simply wish to be armed that I might defend myself from would-be attackers.

I do not think that is an unreasonable request.
 

KeyMaster45

Gone Gonzo
Jun 16, 2008
2,846
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TeeBs said:
I think at this point, owning a gun to stand up and rise against the government would be pretty irrelevant. Unless we have the right to bear tanks.
You've never seen The Killdozer before have you.



That was made by some dude in his garage (or barn...it was a big garage) it was literally unstoppable by local authorities and was only stopped when the guy got it stuck in a ditch he tried to cross. Of course he killed himself once he realized his super villain rampage had come to an abrupt halt and he would be going to jail, it took them 12 hours to cut a hole in the thing to recover his corpse. To this day no one knows why he did it. So to answer your question, yes, we have the right to bear tanks and the right to build our own out of junk, call it The Killdozer, and become a roll model to aspiring young super villains everywhere.(minus the pansy suicide when caught. a real super villain gets caught then promptly breaks out to collect his Killdozer from the impound lot.)
 

Gilhelmi

The One Who Protects
Oct 22, 2009
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Father Time said:
CitySquirrel said:
Oh, I predict a storm of feces, incoming.

That having been said, the 2nd amendment was written when guns were significantly different than they are today. I question what the original writers would have thought if they could have seen future guns.
Ok why don't we apply that thinking to the first amendment then. So no internet, no TV, no radio, no video games, no movies.
Excellent, argument good sir. I am writing that down. May I use it in future debates.
 

BigT7044

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Aug 17, 2010
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XxRyanxX said:
We should be Civil and mature to have Guns for self-protection. We wouldn't have issues if people just learned not to misuse Guns. For the matter, I feel taking away Guns is pointless because there will be people buying off Guns in Black Markets and when they threaten us, we'll have no way to protect ourselves then. Plus, it'd also cause other Nations to feel the urge to invade us if we don't have Guns, let alone only the Army does. It's all complicated really..
I completeley agree, and if I may build off of your statement. If guns become illegal, thats not gonna stop 'bad guys' from getting them, and leave 'good guys' or just law abiding citizens helpless. As an uncle of mine said "If more good guys had guns, there'd be a lot less bad guys."

Effects of Mandatory Gun Ownership: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/16/opinion/16reynolds.html
Effects of Complete Gun Ban: http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/aus.html
 

Gilhelmi

The One Who Protects
Oct 22, 2009
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tellmeimaninja said:
Gilhelmi said:
tellmeimaninja said:
America is difficult to invade. Really fucking difficult. They don't really need militia.

And America's not going to need civilians with assault rifles to defend themselves, now that they have one of the biggest, most annoying military forces around.

And fuck the law-abiding citizen shit. You're law abiding until you get pissed off and shoot someone down.
I think China could with the help of Russia.

I am not saying it is going to happen. But it could happen.

Also, the second amendment gives the people the ability to overthrow the government if the need arises. Now I do not think our government is that bad. But it could happen.

If you do not prepare of the possibilities then you will be caught with you pants down and get you killed.
I'll be sure to keep that in mind when the US government starts killing its own civilians and/or China and Russia suddenly decide that invading America is the only logical thing to do.

But anyhow, guns shouldn't be a problem, but as usual, stupid people can find a way to make anything a problem.
This is true. I really have a strong dislike for stupid people.
 

Evil Alpaca

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May 22, 2010
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Many of the people in the thread are citing "Black market" as the source for most guns but a recent article in the Economist points to corrupt gun shops that are more concerned with selling guns than ensuring the people they are selling to have a legal ability to bear arms (ie. no criminal or physiological dis-qualifiers). While I am in favor of more gun control, I think that the real focus should be on the suppliers of weapons rather than the consumers. Look at the pharmaceutical industry. Look how many regulations they have for the distribution of their products and the consequences for reselling. It is harder for me to get a bottle of Vicodin than a handgun. Does that strike anyone else as screwed up?
 

Orcus The Ultimate

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Nov 22, 2009
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When FEMA will overthrow democracy, you will wish to have the NSF...

Sect. 1042 of the 2007 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), ?Use of the Armed Forces in Major Public Emergencies,? gives the executive the power to invoke martial law. For the first time in more than a century, the president is now authorized to use the military in response to ?a natural disaster, a disease outbreak, a terrorist attack or any other condition in which the President determines that domestic violence has occurred to the extent that state officials cannot maintain public order.?

The Military Commissions Act of 2006, rammed through Congress just before the 2006 midterm elections, allows for the indefinite imprisonment of anyone who donates money to a charity that turns up on a list of ?terrorist? organizations, or who speaks out against the government?s policies. The law calls for secret trials for citizens and noncitizens alike.
Also in 2007, the White House quietly issued National Security Presidential Directive 51 (NSPD-51), to ensure ?continuity of government? in the event of what the document vaguely calls a ?catastrophic emergency.? Should the president determine that such an emergency has occurred, he and he alone is empowered to do whatever he deems necessary to ensure ?continuity of government.? This could include everything from canceling elections to suspending the Constitution to launching a nuclear attack. Congress has yet to hold a single hearing on NSPD-51.

http://www.roguegovernment.com/The_Reality_Of_FEMA_Camps_And_The_Martial_Law_Appartus/14096/0/13/13/Y/M.html

why does FEMA camps have millions of Coffins ?
check this out..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G3g1o3uHFE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P-hvPJPTi4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3zSDdm-SHI