Poll: A disturbing question about necessary logical identity

Indeterminacy

New member
Feb 13, 2011
194
0
0
The disturbing question that brought you here is this:

"Is it, or is it not, logically necessary that your grandparents had sex?"
I'll give you a moment to overcome the face-value disturbance there.

We good?

Good.

There are very good arguments in defense of either position. Here is a sketch of an exchange that might possibly take place. I'd be interested to hear how you all respond to the question, whether you do or don't read the below.

----------

Prima facie, it seems that it is necessary. This is because the combination of your existence with the absence (as of yet) of completely synthetic reproduction collectively decide the fact that you must have had grandparents.

But there are questions as to whether this necessity is a logical one. Firstly, is your existence logically necessary? Secondly, couldn't your actual grandparents have not been your grandparents? Third, is it logically necessary that people have grandparents, even if it's physically necessary?

Ah, but on the other hand, what this seems to turn on is the fact that we're talking about the construction "your grandparents". One can think of a great many ways in which you might not exist, or people might not have parents, but in such situations, how would we make sense of what "your grandparents" is supposed to mean? It seems reasonable to think that logical necessity should range over all accessible logical alternatives to the way we actually use our logical description of the world, rather than just every logical alternative whatsoever. So in all logical situation where "your grandparents" successfully talks about people, they talk about people that had sex.

But isn't this too weak to really be logical necessity? It seems more right to say that logic talks about the fundamental behaviour of Objects, rather than Language or Descriptions. After all, language and description are more social than an account of the most general rules of metaphysical structure should be. That is, you talk about precisely those people when you talk about your grandparents, rather than in terms of their relation to you or the social world you live in. So the logical situations you consider are those where your grandparents Exist, and there's obviously no requirement coming from their simple existence that they should have sex.

Except it's easy to use the descriptive or semantic account to account for other ways in which things could be. It's very difficult to say what it means to be the same thing in a hypothetical situation when we try to say that being one and the same object is what's important. If being exactly this object right here is what matters, and no other logical possibility would correctly describe it as being anything other, then I seem committed to metaphysical determinism, in that every property I have, I have as a matter of logical necessity. It seems a mistake to go this far and state that everything that actually happens is logically predestined. I might have had different Grandparents.

Yet the description perspective can't actually say this, because if we think that logical necessity talks about situations accessible in virtue of their descriptions, we should think logical possibility talks about the same range of situations, and in those situations, no, your grandparents are always your grandparents. Instead, you need to think of the difference in terms of your grandparents having different properties - it's logically possible that your grandparents might have been older or younger than they are. This is something that the object perspective is much better at, since you can just look at the same object in each situation and ask what properties it has. This is still a more natural interpretation of what logic does than descriptions.

... Or is it? After all, how would you go about forming logical arguments or proving logical theorems if you need to ask, of each possible situation, what properties it ascribes to the objects we're interested in? Isn't logic essentially about deduction and inference, rather than an empirical view on what is in each of these possible situations?
 

Dexiro

New member
Dec 23, 2009
2,977
0
0
Maybe I'm derping here because I found this a little hard to follow but are we talking about biological grandparents here? Or just the people you might happen to call your grandparents.

It's necessary that your biological grandparents had sex or else neither of your parents would exist and neither would you. The people you call grandparents might not have had sex but the fact remains that 2 people had sex to create either of your parents.

Or are we making the argument that your grandparents could have conceived either of your parents in a different way, like semen on a toilet or something along those lines. Or both of your parents were conceived through artificial insemination perhaps.

Either way what is the point of this and what's disturbing about it? :p
 

ChuQue37

New member
May 16, 2011
84
0
0
This post is a great example of how easily language can fail our ideas.

Please keep in mind that while brevity may be the soul of wit, wit isn't what you're trying to achieve.
 

.No.

New member
Dec 29, 2010
472
0
0
What? Be more clear with your posts.
Also, why the need to have a discussion when there's no reason to, as it's already in the OP?
 

Yokai

New member
Oct 31, 2008
1,982
0
0
I feel really stupid for not understanding a word of this. What Humanities course do I need to take before understanding the concept of logical necessity?
 

Jedoro

New member
Jun 28, 2009
5,393
0
0
I exist. My parents had sex to create me. Their parents had sex to create them. Because I exist, it is logically necessary that my grandparents had sex. Hypotheticals are irrelevant when I have a physical form that could only be created by bumping uglies.
 

tthor

New member
Apr 9, 2008
2,931
0
0
I am too ADD tonight to read all of that.. if this is a timetravel argument, keep in mind we have very little understanding of how timetravel WOULD work, so these arguments remain highly questionable
 

EpicEps

New member
Nov 29, 2011
60
0
0
Jedoro said:
I exist. My parents had sex to create me. Their parents had sex to create them. Because I exist, it is logically necessary that my grandparents had sex. Hypotheticals are irrelevant when I have a physical form that could only be created by bumping uglies.
That is the most scientific explanation. Grandparents bumping uglies+ parents bumping uglies= you.
 

Kopikatsu

New member
May 27, 2010
4,924
0
0
What about people who've come around through sperm doners and the like? No bumping uglies there.
 

2xDouble

New member
Mar 15, 2010
2,310
0
0
Not all together they didn't, but yes. Simple definition.

I was born from my parents.
My parents were born from their parents.
My parents' parents are my grandparents.
Technology to bypass sex was not available at the time my parents were born.
People must have sex to have children.
Therefore my grandparents had to have had sex to birth my parents.

The tricky logical point is, how to prove the people I think of as my grandparents are my literal grandparents? Trick question, it doesn't matter. Regardless of who they are vs who I consider them to be, my grandparents were the ones who sired my parents, therefore they must have had sex.
 

richd213

New member
Mar 2, 2011
112
0
0
Kopikatsu said:
What about people who've come around through sperm doners and the like? No bumping uglies there.
Was that technology even around when our grandparents were making our parents?
 

urluckyidunbeatu

New member
Feb 19, 2011
38
0
0
I would have to say that currently, looking at the situation from the present I must start my argument with a claim that though to some is refutable but to me, seems to be a fundamental truth; I exist. Going from there, I have a set genetic structure that has been passed down from both of my parents when I was conceived. I also have memories of meeting the people who I know have had sex in order to conceive my mother, and I have memories of the mother of my birth father. Through that much I can assume that my mother's genetics and memories have been contributed and affected by her grandparents. All of that can be proven by DNA testing, therefore, the contributors of my parent's genetics did engage in the exchange of sperm and an egg was fertilized in each respective mother. My parents met, did the same and conceived me. When using that evidence I find that I can truly say that my grandparents as logical necessity had to have had sex for if I had different grandparents, I would have met different people claiming to be such. There are holes in this argument but it's as good as I want to get it right now so, oh well.
 

Stopdoor

New member
Nov 4, 2011
19
0
0
I'm not sure if this is a serious argument, or something designed to trip people up.

Either way, I'm not really qualified to argue against it.
 

Kopikatsu

New member
May 27, 2010
4,924
0
0
richd213 said:
Kopikatsu said:
What about people who've come around through sperm doners and the like? No bumping uglies there.
Was that technology even around when our grandparents were making our parents?
I doubt they had sperm clinics or anything, but they could still...do it. Just...

I don't want to talk about this in detail. Dx
 

II2

New member
Mar 13, 2010
1,492
0
0
This seems kinda like an epistemological rim shot.

If the OP's post is an idea represented by the turning sphere of a basketball moving through our imaginations and (re)interpretations through time as we inductively digest the semiotic polysyllables postulated, does the fleeting, circular contact of the edge of the idea indicate a mere flirtation with the tangible notion of complete, fully-dimensioned conceptualization passing into collective, net understanding, or is rather, just the shadow of understanding, eclipsed by it's own efforts to express itself as it skitters across the rim and bounces back into the steadily dribbling grip of T-Stumps and Jay Sixty-Five?

...

See, I can do it too. ;)