Poll: A Rant About Emulation!

ItsNotRudy

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SecondPrize said:
Why should you devalue copies that collectors in the secondhand market own because you don't want to pay the going rate. Yeah, things break and get destroyed over time. This is why collectibles attain such high prices. If everyone just goes online and snags a rom, you're diminishing the value of these collectibles.
The PC doesn't preserve well either (La Noire isn't even working from Win7>8 anymore rofl so go figure). If you want to play stuff from the 90s, you need...

An emulator. DOSbox or something like it.
You are diminishing the non-existing value of my box full of Windows 95 games. Stahp.

Why should I be denied a classic... because collecting maniacs want a few bucks more value? I don't even think collectors buy or gather to play the actual game, as it would ruin the condition. Just like... stamp collectors don't use them on actual letters. Also, how much value does a game even have? My limited edition Transparent Gameboy isn't worth more than $100 and I've seen cartridges for older systems pop up on ebay for a few dollars. Nothing old in the gaming industry is worth a damn except for maybe the first Pacman Arcade machine or something. But yet again, to purchase that would be for looks, not to play Pacman.

I've emulated a variety of games, but mostly my own copies that I really wanted to see in HD or share with my girlfriend now that she's very far away from me and we can't play together anymore (she likes to watch me play story intense games, but I digress).

I even got to play Japanese-only titles with translation patches that wouldn't work on my Wii or PS2.
 

SecondPrize

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Techno Squidgy said:
SecondPrize said:
Techno Squidgy said:
However, who's going to pay $70 for an old game? The law may say it's illegal, however, let's look at it this way.

You want game X. X isn't being sold new any more. The Pub/Dev don't get any money if you buy it second-hand. If you buy it second hand the console is going to break eventually. It's unlikely you'll be able to repair or replace it as the consoles get rarer every day as more of them break. Eventually there will be none left.

You might as well just go digital.
I like PC because I can keep my games pretty much forever. At least, the ones without DRM. Oh wait! Cracks! I have some really old games that don't work any more on a modern PC. I play them by emulating MS-DOS. Aren't computers fun?
Why should you devalue copies that collectors in the secondhand market own because you don't want to pay the going rate. Yeah, things break and get destroyed over time. This is why collectibles attain such high prices. If everyone just goes online and snags a rom, you're diminishing the value of these collectibles.
Oh no. I'm making games cheaper. I am so evil. Please stop me now.

If you want to collect hardware and physical copies, go nuts. I don't. I want to play games. I'd be happy to pay for these games, but I'm not going to pay MORE than I would for a new game. If there were a nice convenient service where I could buy old games cheap and play them I'd be more than happy to do so.

How hard could it possibly be to release an official emulator, sell it cheap and then sell ROMs for old games cheap online?
What does a company who own publishing rights for a game releasing official roms have to do with people downloading roms on their own. The game can't be able to be purchased anywhere (yes, even on the secondhand market) or you have to make your own rom from a copy. Those are the instances in which you can legitimately use non-official roms. Of course it'll be preferable to be able to buy them from the developer and to have a huge selection, but that was never the point of my initial post to which you responded.
ItsNotRudy said:
SecondPrize said:
Why should you devalue copies that collectors in the secondhand market own because you don't want to pay the going rate. Yeah, things break and get destroyed over time. This is why collectibles attain such high prices. If everyone just goes online and snags a rom, you're diminishing the value of these collectibles.
The PC doesn't preserve well either (La Noire isn't even working from Win7>8 anymore rofl so go figure). If you want to play stuff from the 90s, you need...

An emulator. DOSbox or something like it.
You are diminishing the non-existing value of my box full of Windows 95 games. Stahp.

Why should I be denied a classic... because collecting maniacs want a few bucks more value? I don't even think collectors buy or gather to play the actual game, as it would ruin the condition. Just like... stamp collectors don't use them on actual letters. Also, how much value does a game even have? My limited edition Transparent Gameboy isn't worth more than $100 and I've seen cartridges for older systems pop up on ebay for a few dollars. Nothing old in the gaming industry is worth a damn except for maybe the first Pacman Arcade machine or something. But yet again, to purchase that would be for looks, not to play Pacman.

I've emulated a variety of games, but mostly my own copies that I really wanted to see in HD or share with my girlfriend now that she's very far away from me and we can't play together anymore (she likes to watch me play story intense games, but I digress).

I even got to play Japanese-only titles with translation patches that wouldn't work on my Wii or PS2.
I'm not calling for the death of all emulators and roms, only pointing out the legal instances in which one can use roms.
To answer your question, because the maniac collector has a legitimate licensed copy of the game, and as you are able to purchase from them and we wouldn't be discussing this if you had your own copy which you made a rom from, you would not be using a licensed version of the game. In this case, he has the right to sell his copy, and you don't have the right to download a rom not of your own making and play it.
 

Techno Squidgy

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SecondPrize said:
Techno Squidgy said:
SecondPrize said:
Techno Squidgy said:
However, who's going to pay $70 for an old game? The law may say it's illegal, however, let's look at it this way.

You want game X. X isn't being sold new any more. The Pub/Dev don't get any money if you buy it second-hand. If you buy it second hand the console is going to break eventually. It's unlikely you'll be able to repair or replace it as the consoles get rarer every day as more of them break. Eventually there will be none left.

You might as well just go digital.
I like PC because I can keep my games pretty much forever. At least, the ones without DRM. Oh wait! Cracks! I have some really old games that don't work any more on a modern PC. I play them by emulating MS-DOS. Aren't computers fun?
Why should you devalue copies that collectors in the secondhand market own because you don't want to pay the going rate. Yeah, things break and get destroyed over time. This is why collectibles attain such high prices. If everyone just goes online and snags a rom, you're diminishing the value of these collectibles.
Oh no. I'm making games cheaper. I am so evil. Please stop me now.

If you want to collect hardware and physical copies, go nuts. I don't. I want to play games. I'd be happy to pay for these games, but I'm not going to pay MORE than I would for a new game. If there were a nice convenient service where I could buy old games cheap and play them I'd be more than happy to do so.

How hard could it possibly be to release an official emulator, sell it cheap and then sell ROMs for old games cheap online?
What does a company who own publishing rights for a game releasing official roms have to do with people downloading roms on their own. The game can't be able to be purchased anywhere (yes, even on the secondhand market) or you have to make your own rom from a copy. Those are the instances in which you can legitimately use non-official roms. Of course it'll be preferable to be able to buy them from the developer and to have a huge selection, but that was never the point of my initial post to which you responded.
It's what we should be able to do instead, it was a follow on from my own train of though not a further response to you.
My point in my initial response, is that nobody loses. You responded by saying collectors lose. To be perfectly honest, I don't think they do. Surely it's the fact that it's a physical copy or the actual hardware that makes it valuable to a collector, or else they'd be emulating anyway. These physical things will get harder and harder to find as they break and get lost so they'll be more valuable, so no, I don't think I'm damaging the collector's market at all.
 

SecondPrize

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Techno Squidgy said:
SecondPrize said:
Techno Squidgy said:
SecondPrize said:
Techno Squidgy said:
However, who's going to pay $70 for an old game? The law may say it's illegal, however, let's look at it this way.

You want game X. X isn't being sold new any more. The Pub/Dev don't get any money if you buy it second-hand. If you buy it second hand the console is going to break eventually. It's unlikely you'll be able to repair or replace it as the consoles get rarer every day as more of them break. Eventually there will be none left.

You might as well just go digital.
I like PC because I can keep my games pretty much forever. At least, the ones without DRM. Oh wait! Cracks! I have some really old games that don't work any more on a modern PC. I play them by emulating MS-DOS. Aren't computers fun?
Why should you devalue copies that collectors in the secondhand market own because you don't want to pay the going rate. Yeah, things break and get destroyed over time. This is why collectibles attain such high prices. If everyone just goes online and snags a rom, you're diminishing the value of these collectibles.
Oh no. I'm making games cheaper. I am so evil. Please stop me now.

If you want to collect hardware and physical copies, go nuts. I don't. I want to play games. I'd be happy to pay for these games, but I'm not going to pay MORE than I would for a new game. If there were a nice convenient service where I could buy old games cheap and play them I'd be more than happy to do so.

How hard could it possibly be to release an official emulator, sell it cheap and then sell ROMs for old games cheap online?
What does a company who own publishing rights for a game releasing official roms have to do with people downloading roms on their own. The game can't be able to be purchased anywhere (yes, even on the secondhand market) or you have to make your own rom from a copy. Those are the instances in which you can legitimately use non-official roms. Of course it'll be preferable to be able to buy them from the developer and to have a huge selection, but that was never the point of my initial post to which you responded.
It's what we should be able to do instead, it was a follow on from my own train of though not a further response to you.
My point in my initial response, is that nobody loses. You responded by saying collectors lose. To be perfectly honest, I don't think they do. Surely it's the fact that it's a physical copy or the actual hardware that makes it valuable to a collector, or else they'd be emulating anyway. These physical things will get harder and harder to find as they break and get lost so they'll be more valuable, so no, I don't think I'm damaging the collector's market at all.
So you're not making games cheaper, aren't evil and don't need to be stopped?
With people downloading ROMs and using those, demand for any given title is being satisfied before you even get the secondhand market involved. Without the demand created by people who just want an opportunity to play the game and don't care about the collectible value of a game, you'll see depressed prices for secondhand games. Now, collectors will know that they don't own the publishing rights and whomever does can release a digital copy and fill the demand of those who want to own a copy for playing, but they shouldn't have to deal with a loss of value because of people just going out and downloading ROMs.
whoops double quote, lemme snip one
 

FFP2

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Techno Squidgy said:
What's the point though? Low res textures, fixed draw distance, usually no Anti-Aliasing, potential slow downs, and sometimes weird graphical issues. I find it best just to play games in their native resolution, windowed mode. That and it allows me to have something playing in VLC or youtube next to it.
You can up the internal resolution... it scales pretty well for most games eg FF12. And I never use AA even on PC games so it's a non-issue for me.

OT: I just got a Xbox controller for Windows and I'm playing FF12 via PCSX2 with it at 720p... Emulation is an amazing thing.
 

V da Mighty Taco

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Adeptus Aspartem said:
Sorry, you're first post sounded like you imply that since you only don't do it because you've morals, that we other mortal beings have none.
I can't understand that sayin' you sounded passive-aggressive is a blatant insult.

I don't need to have a counter argument, because i do not want to persuade you to anything. I just wanted to know why you think the company you bought it cares HOW you play your game.
To me it's not diffrent to modding. Or rigging a diffrent controller to your console. Or play on a beamer instead of a TV.
If i own the game, i play the way i want it and no company has any rights to tell me otherwise.

The other part is: Emulating stuff i lost when i moved or someone threw away accidentially and games which just do not exist (get sold) anymore.
My issue isn't really with games you already own, so much as freely downloading games you don't own. Games you have in your possession isn't really piracy, since you acquired the game legally. Downloading games you don't have, on the other hand, seems like piracy to me. There are some very valid arguments to downloading games that can't be legally acquired without the secondhand market, particularly with how shoddily the copyright laws are written (50 years until something is public domain is just silly imo) and how no money is made anymore by the publisher or devs, but it's still a very grey area that I can't quite make up my mind on. While there definitely is some hypocrisy involved on my part, I avoid downloading emulations of games until I figure this all out.
 

ItsNotRudy

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Techno Squidgy said:
FFP2 said:
I love it. Being able to play literally every console game up until the Wii in 720p... Bliss.
What's the point though? Low res textures, fixed draw distance, usually no Anti-Aliasing, potential slow downs, and sometimes weird graphical issues. I find it best just to play games in their native resolution, windowed mode. That and it allows me to have something playing in VLC or youtube next to it.
http://ultrararespacehighfive.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/1080vnative-ff12.png

That's why.

Also, not everyone wants distraction when trying to immerse into a story.

Also, Anti-Aliasing is something you can set yourself.
 

Vylox

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SecondPrize said:
So you're not making games cheaper, aren't evil and don't need to be stopped?
With people downloading ROMs and using those, demand for any given title is being satisfied before you even get the secondhand market involved. Without the demand created by people who just want an opportunity to play the game and don't care about the collectible value of a game, you'll see depressed prices for secondhand games. Now, collectors will know that they don't own the publishing rights and whomever does can release a digital copy and fill the demand of those who want to own a copy for playing, but they shouldn't have to deal with a loss of value because of people just going out and downloading ROMs.
whoops double quote, lemme snip one
The collectors market, along with all second-hand markets, are something that many game and console publishers want gone. However, that isn't the point. People don't hunt for a lot of collectable titles because those that are interested in collecting them already have them in the first place. Take a look at comics, as an example, there are whole online libraries of old comics, run and hosted by the publishers of those comics, and it in turn has increased the value of the majority of those issues, not decreased their value to a collectors market. Take another game.. oh how about Warsong (Hikari Langrissier) .. it was released for download on the Wii, within 2 months the price f the cartridge jumped from $16 to almost $600. It has since stabilized and the only 2 copies I've seen for sale anywhere in the past 4 months were listed at $90, which btw is 3 times the price to have purchased it new in 1989 when it was 29.99 as a brand new release.

If publishers want my money, they need to provide something I'm interested in buying, if collectors want my money, they need to provide something I'm interested in collecting.

The thing here is that a collectors market is entirely different than a gamers market. The value of those old games will invariably increase, no matter what, over time. But the developers and publishers don't get anything out of that second hand market.. I know Tecmo isn't seeing a dime from sales of Warsong whether by collectors or the Wii online store.
 

Swishdude

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I can't imagine the collectors market would see a loss in price and cost. Just because it's easier to get certain games doesn't mean the originals lose value.
 

SecondPrize

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Vylox said:
SecondPrize said:
So you're not making games cheaper, aren't evil and don't need to be stopped?
With people downloading ROMs and using those, demand for any given title is being satisfied before you even get the secondhand market involved. Without the demand created by people who just want an opportunity to play the game and don't care about the collectible value of a game, you'll see depressed prices for secondhand games. Now, collectors will know that they don't own the publishing rights and whomever does can release a digital copy and fill the demand of those who want to own a copy for playing, but they shouldn't have to deal with a loss of value because of people just going out and downloading ROMs.
whoops double quote, lemme snip one
The collectors market, along with all second-hand markets, are something that many game and console publishers want gone. However, that isn't the point. People don't hunt for a lot of collectable titles because those that are interested in collecting them already have them in the first place. Take a look at comics, as an example, there are whole online libraries of old comics, run and hosted by the publishers of those comics, and it in turn has increased the value of the majority of those issues, not decreased their value to a collectors market. Take another game.. oh how about Warsong (Hikari Langrissier) .. it was released for download on the Wii, within 2 months the price f the cartridge jumped from $16 to almost $600. It has since stabilized and the only 2 copies I've seen for sale anywhere in the past 4 months were listed at $90, which btw is 3 times the price to have purchased it new in 1989 when it was 29.99 as a brand new release.

If publishers want my money, they need to provide something I'm interested in buying, if collectors want my money, they need to provide something I'm interested in collecting.

The thing here is that a collectors market is entirely different than a gamers market. The value of those old games will invariably increase, no matter what, over time. But the developers and publishers don't get anything out of that second hand market.. I know Tecmo isn't seeing a dime from sales of Warsong whether by collectors or the Wii online store.
What does it matter who's getting the money for the games? It's just an attempt at justifying one's piracy to quibble about where the money goes. If someone wants a legal ROM, they have to first get a copy and then copy that as a ROM. That's how it works.
 

Techno Squidgy

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SecondPrize said:
Techno Squidgy said:
It's what we should be able to do instead, it was a follow on from my own train of though not a further response to you.
My point in my initial response, is that nobody loses. You responded by saying collectors lose. To be perfectly honest, I don't think they do. Surely it's the fact that it's a physical copy or the actual hardware that makes it valuable to a collector, or else they'd be emulating anyway. These physical things will get harder and harder to find as they break and get lost so they'll be more valuable, so no, I don't think I'm damaging the collector's market at all.
So you're not making games cheaper, aren't evil and don't need to be stopped?
With people downloading ROMs and using those, demand for any given title is being satisfied before you even get the secondhand market involved. Without the demand created by people who just want an opportunity to play the game and don't care about the collectible value of a game, you'll see depressed prices for secondhand games. Now, collectors will know that they don't own the publishing rights and whomever does can release a digital copy and fill the demand of those who want to own a copy for playing, but they shouldn't have to deal with a loss of value because of people just going out and downloading ROMs.
whoops double quote, lemme snip one
Surely if they're collectors a lower price would be a good thing? I can't think of a single person that ever wanted to pay more for something. I think we have a misunderstanding here.

To me a collector wants to build a collection of old games and hardware. So why on earth would a collector be losing out if they were cheaper. If anything, wouldn't they then be able to buy even more games and consoles for their collection with the money they've saved?

ItsNotRudy said:
http://ultrararespacehighfive.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/1080vnative-ff12.png

That's why.

Also, not everyone wants distraction when trying to immerse into a story.

Also, Anti-Aliasing is something you can set yourself.
Oh wow, that does make quite the difference! I may need to play with my settings now. Not sure if the results will be quite as pleasing for PSX and N64 games though.

I haven't really been playing story heavy games lately so I'm not really that bothered about immersion, it's just something fun to do while I watch TV on catch-up or listen to a pod-cast or something. When I do play story games I have it in windowed mode with steam or skype open next to it, but I think I'm going to have to try up scaling now and running in fullscreen.
 

Vylox

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SecondPrize said:
What does it matter who's getting the money for the games? It's just an attempt at justifying one's piracy to quibble about where the money goes. If someone wants a legal ROM, they have to first get a copy and then copy that as a ROM. That's how it works.
Because the entire argument against emulation is that its piracy, and piracy is about money and copyright infringement. Its all about the money. The entire copyright system and laws is about money. Even your argument about the collector's market was about money. The whole gaming industry is about money. So it matters. If there is a game that I want to play, that is legitimately available where the developers and publishers of said game will earn money, then I will buy it from them, as will just about every other person who is for emulation. However, that is not always the case. And purchasing an older title from a collector, which is breech of copyright nd a breech of the standard end user license agreement with most older games, is not providing a profit to those who developed the content we desire. Its putting money into the pockets of people who do not usually have a license agreement with that game developer or publisher to sell or re-sell that content for a profit. GameStop has a license agreement with publishers to buy and sell used and new games, collectors have no such legal right to sell games unless they are selling them to an entity that has a distribution license with said original publisher.

Its about the money, always has been, always will be. The majority of collectors do not have the right to sell you a game, for their own profit, without having a license or agreement for distribution from the publisher of said game. Since those collectors likely do NOT have such a license or agreement, and most don't even have Vendors Licenses (making any sale that they make illegal anyhow) it really does matter WHO is getting paid.
 

ItsNotRudy

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Vylox said:
SecondPrize said:
What does it matter who's getting the money for the games? It's just an attempt at justifying one's piracy to quibble about where the money goes. If someone wants a legal ROM, they have to first get a copy and then copy that as a ROM. That's how it works.
Because the entire argument against emulation is that its piracy, and piracy is about money and copyright infringement.
Emulation isn't piracy and afaik, nobody ever sued the creators of emulators. What I have seen though, is removal of roms to prevent lawsuits.

And purchasing an older title from a collector, which is breech of copyright nd a breech of the standard end user license agreement with most older games, is not providing a profit to those who developed the content we desire.
Why should it provide a profit for the developers? If I sell my copy of Lufia II now, which I bought for $70 as a kid, now resell it for a similar amount, how does this profit either party? I get my money back and lose the game, the other person pays for the game. The developers already got their share when I first got it.

I don't quite see the logic as to why an already purchased game would need to make anyone a profit just because it's passed through many hands.
 

SecondPrize

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Vylox said:
SecondPrize said:
What does it matter who's getting the money for the games? It's just an attempt at justifying one's piracy to quibble about where the money goes. If someone wants a legal ROM, they have to first get a copy and then copy that as a ROM. That's how it works.
Because the entire argument against emulation is that its piracy, and piracy is about money and copyright infringement. Its all about the money. The entire copyright system and laws is about money. Even your argument about the collector's market was about money. The whole gaming industry is about money. So it matters. If there is a game that I want to play, that is legitimately available where the developers and publishers of said game will earn money, then I will buy it from them, as will just about every other person who is for emulation. However, that is not always the case. And purchasing an older title from a collector, which is breech of copyright nd a breech of the standard end user license agreement with most older games, is not providing a profit to those who developed the content we desire. Its putting money into the pockets of people who do not usually have a license agreement with that game developer or publisher to sell or re-sell that content for a profit. GameStop has a license agreement with publishers to buy and sell used and new games, collectors have no such legal right to sell games unless they are selling them to an entity that has a distribution license with said original publisher.

Its about the money, always has been, always will be. The majority of collectors do not have the right to sell you a game, for their own profit, without having a license or agreement for distribution from the publisher of said game. Since those collectors likely do NOT have such a license or agreement, and most don't even have Vendors Licenses (making any sale that they make illegal anyhow) it really does matter WHO is getting paid.
The first sale doctrine allows initial purchasers of copyrighted works to resell them. The secondary game market for old cartridges and disks is legal. In Europe, even digital games can be resold by their owner.
 

Auron

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A very large percentage of the games is not being made anymore, while some are ported digitally like some classics from snes and Megadrive most of them are basically abandonware. I don't see a logical reason to abandon gaming history to dust other than corporate greed.
 

Swishdude

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Auron said:
A very large percentage of the games is not being made anymore, while some are ported digitally like some classics from snes and Megadrive most of them are basically abandonware. I don't see a logical reason to abandon gaming history to dust other than corporate greed.
I agree. Even modern games can be produced in small numbers making them really hard to find. Take a look for the Metroid Trilogy for the Wii. It's hard to find because it was a limited release!
 

Vylox

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@Rudy
Your recovering the money you spent, not garnering a profit that is where the crutch is at. As to buying the game from a collector, it doesn't matter if it profits the publisher or developer at that point, what matters is whether or not the collector or reseller makes a profit, and whether they have the permissions to do so.

@SecondPrize
That doctrine allows for one to re-sell the product in question at a loss, not at a profit. Collectors markets are about profit. The secondary market is legal, as long as the seller(s) have a Vendor Permit, Vendors License, or have entered into an agreement with publishers to sell or re-sell said product. And who is to say that the person your purchased that collectors copy of whatever game is the original or initial purchaser ? There is a reason you have to sign stuff when you sell copyrighted materials to a store or facility such as GameStop, and you do so at a loss from the initial purchase price. Notice that I am very specific about the "for profit" portion. Thanks to this amazing piece of legislature in the United States, called the Digital Millennium Act of 1998 which has provisions about sale and re-sale of copyrighted materials, it outlines guidelines about who can and can not re-sell copyrighted material for a profit.
 

Signa

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I kinda disagree with the end of the video. It depends on a case-by-case scenario, but I don't know if I want game companies trying to sell their old product on newer systems. That's mostly because every attempt I've seen so far is ridiculously overvalued, but I question if half of those games sold are even being sold by the people who made them, or just merely the company that owns the rights to it.

See, in the whole piracy argument, the only good reason to not pirate something is so that the original creators get paid for their work. I don't think that is happening regardless if a game is emulated or bought through any other means. Earthbound is supposedly coming to VC soon, but I have to ask how many of the people that worked on it are actually going to see some cash come their way for it. I doubt anyone less than a CEO will see a dime. All buying Earthbound will do is support people who were rich and powerful enough to buy the rights to become more rich and powerful, and reward them for not being talented enough to entertain us. Emulation may not be the perfect answer to that problem, but it at least means your hard earned money won't be going into their lazy pockets.