Poll: A sensitive question about transgender and locker rooms

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Wow ...
I ask an honest question, and you give me scorn? Does it make you feel cleaver to be so condescending?

Given that wasn't my goal, no. But rather to illustrate the quality of talking about liberty and not talk about the frameworks of it being elementary at best, and subjective at worse.

So then you would rather unisex restrooms, and this is mainly about practicality and realism from a political stand point, rather than gender segregated restrooms being preferable to unisex?

I'd rather that gender identity be more applicable in social and legal qualities than sex at birth. It makes more sense, gives the most power to the individual, and embraces liberty of expression.

But politics are inevitables in a world that doesn't understand basic philosophy. How often do you see someone like Texan Republican Senator like Riddle wear right, white and blue in press shots, proclaiming the nature of freedom ... even whilst trying to jail people for having chromosomes that she doesn't like?

Philosophical congruence is important.

(Edit) Oh, also. There's good reasons why gender neutral toilet options should come off the back of toilets as per gender. The GLSEN did a report on how schools providing faculty based toilets to trans people rather than communicating the child is welcome to express their gender identity as fact of their self authentication leads to lessened transgender student participation in school activities.

Creating an environment of disengagement, in a world where trans children either suffer increased stigmatization for being trans or suffer greater depression for trying to hide their trans identity.

( http://glsen.org/sites/default/files/Harsh%20Realities.pdf )

We already exist in a world where transgender school students suffer huge disegagement from academia. Why should we worsen this? Particularly when someone's mental health and social engagement ranks higher than the odd person feeling discomfort because of their prejudicial treatment of others, or because of some false fear that transgeder people are going to invade toilets just to perv o other people.

Given that there are more gay people than trans, such argumentation is one step away from saying gay people should have their own accomodations.

I put it to you, for example. The California incident where a trans girl was accused (falsely) ... the school didn't care, the students didn't care ... it was one mother who didn't want their child associating with trans people at all. That didn't stop the story blaring across Fox News and PJI Websites ... despite it being proven false and fabricated. The fear is as unmerited as when people used to say they felt 'scared' by showering near gay men or women in changing rooms.

For the sake of privacy .. install a few stalls. No one is the wiser for it, and it's not as if it's horrendously expensive. If anything it would likely drive up participation in gyms and public pools and the like.

I also put it to you that toilets are not sex based in multiple countries. Australia, for instance ... the laws have always been written on the basis of gender. Which is why it took very little to get government legislation out about the rights of trans people to use the toilet in relation to their gender.

Do you know how many problems it's caused? Zero. Google it if you don't believe ... the only instance I could find is a school trying to force a trans girl to use disabled toilets, of which it backflipped on. Liberty and justice for all > prejudice. Particularly when the rhetoric used to defend said prejudicial treatment being status quo demonstrably conflicts with the cause and pursuit of liberty itself.

People need to be grown up and not treat eachother on the grounds of arbitrary reasons.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

(Edit) Oh, also. There's good reasons why gender neutral toilet options should come off the back of toilets as per gender. The GLSEN did a report on how schools providing faculty based toilets to trans people rather than communicating the child is welcome to express their gender identity as fact of their self authentication leads to lessened transgender student participation in school activities.

Creating an environment of disengagement, in a world where trans children either suffer increased stigmatization for being trans or suffer greater depression for trying to hide their trans identity.

( http://glsen.org/sites/default/files/Harsh%20Realities.pdf )

We already exist in a world where transgender school students suffer huge disegagement from academia. Why should we worsen this? Particularly when someone's mental health and social engagement ranks higher than the odd person feeling discomfort because of their prejudicial treatment of others, or because of some false fear that transgeder people are going to invade toilets just to perv o other people.

Given that there are more gay people than trans, such argumentation is one step away from saying gay people should have their own accomodations.

I put it to you, for example. The california incident where trans girl was a accused (falsely) ... the school didn't care, the students didn't care ... it was one mother of a child who didn't want there child associating with trans people at all.

I also put it to you that toilets are not sex based in multiple countries. Australia, for instance ... the laws have always been written on the basis of gender. Which is why it took very little to get government legislation out about the rights of trans people to use the toilet in relation to their gender.

Do you know how many problems it's caused? Zero. Google it if you don't believe ... the only instance I could find is a school trying to force a trans girl to use disabled toilets, of which it backflipped on. Liberty and justice for all > prejudice. Particularly when the rhetoric used to defend said prejudicial treatment being status quo demonstrably conflicts with the cause and pursuit of liberty itself.

People need to be grown up and not treat eachother on the grounds of arbitrary reasons.

I think I may have been a little unclear about what I meant. When I referred to unisex restrooms, I meant it in the context of simply doing away with male and female segregation altogether, rather than simply adding a unisex option to the mix.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

I think I may have been a little unclear about what I meant. When I referred to unisex restrooms, I meant it in the context of simply doing away with male and female segregation altogether, rather than simply adding a unisex option to the mix.

That could work. Honestly, I don't (personally) mind there being Men's and Women's and just adding a few stalls in either if they don't have them yet. That being said a Unisex or gender neutral toilet makes sense. Equality is the name of the game. Still I know a few other queer persons that would dig a gender neutral toilet option.

I think the state governments are preparing to roll out the funding for it, for schools and other public spaces.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

Hmm, after thinking on this, I still maintain that segregating on sex makes more sense than gender. But since for the majority of people, sex = gender, it wouldn't really change matters for the worse to simply make that step, even if it does make less sense conceptually. So we may as well go by gender, since it seems less complicated than the alternative.

Plus I still don't get the arguments about perverts using the law to ogle the opposite sex. It seems that even if men were legally allowed to enter the women's restrooms under the guise of being transgendered, they would still be treated with suspicion, which would make it rather hard to get away with anything. Surely if men wanted to perv on women in their restrooms they would simply try to "pass" as women so they wouldn't be called out for being in the wrong room, rather claiming to be transgender and using the law with impunity. Isn't stealth a major part of voyeurism?
In theory, sex segregated restrooms would stop perverts, and gender segregated restrooms would allow it. In practice, you simply have to look female to enter the female restrooms, regardless of the law. So whether it was legal or not for you to be in the restroom is irrelevant. All that matters is if you can get away with it.

Captcha: dogs and cats living together.
Stop it captcha, you're scaring me!

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

People who are uncomfortable with a person of the opposite sex seeing them naked doesn't make them a bigot, it makes them shy or modest.

Of whom would have a problem changing in public to begin with...

Them having a feeling of humiliation when someone of the opposite sex sees them naked isn't them promoting hatred, they are terribly ashamed and embarrassed.

Of which is a cultural issue, not innate psychology ... given that all the stories I read about this about what I shall hereafter refer to as 'trans panic' seemingly coming out of the US, and not anywhere else in the West so far as I can tell.

The issue is in the locker rooms people often get completely naked, and regardless of how one identifies themselves, people are going to see the penis in a room full of vagina's as being not of the same sex.

Assuming a lot there ... given that people have complained about 'trans panic' in bathrooms, despite being utterly unfounded and often based entirely on lies of people refusing trans people access to specific public spaces (like schools).

We have biological sex and we have gender and they are not the same thing, nor can they be actually treated the same way. Sex sorted facilities, much like tools such as urinals and tampons, are designed for the physical sex and are not not a " gender" product, they are a " sex" product.

That's right, we should have 800'000 segregated bathroom conditions to encompass every polypeptide combination ... plus 12 more provincial internal bathroom stalls based on womb conditions. Just to be safe. We should also have people equipped with gene scanners everywhere. It would just be simpler if trans wore the pink triangles that were given to them, but for some reason they have a problem with that.

Many of the showers in locker rooms were not designed to have privacy from others in the same locker room. Just like urinals, they are open and have people in close proximity to one another while they are in a vulnerable state of undress. Those who are shy, have religious beliefs that will not allow them to be naked in front of the opposite sex, or otherwise feel uncomfortable with having vagina's and penises in such close proximity while naked will seek alternatives and will no longer use the facilities at all, creating more sanitation issues if we have people avoiding showers and not having proper facilities to maintain proper hygiene due to not having facilities to meet their needs provided. Their needs would include being able to become naked without vagina's and penises being in close proximity, and no I do not feel that makes them a bigot, I think it just means they have a different level of modesty than I do, and it is not right for one to attempt to impose their level of modesty on others.

What?

I see facilities such as locker rooms and restrooms as in the same category as urinals and tampons that they contain, they were designed for biological sex needs, not for gender. They could replace the cute stick figure restroom signs with a vagina and a penis to clarify this. However, as I stated previously, They need more options than trying to force everyone into a male or female category, because these issues are only present because they do not have the proper facilities provided for everyone in the first place. The failing to recognize more than just male and female is what started this in the first place.

Transgender is more than just male or female, they are both. Trying to force them into one of the categorizes is the problem here.

The only people trying to do that is you. A unisex restroom configuration in addition to Men and Women would be phenomenal. Until then, it's not for you to judge what is man or woman enough to use either. Even after the introduction of unisex toilets it still wouldn't be your place to tell people how to use their toilet, given that in the legal codices of many governments across the planet the laws of toilet use are based on gender, not genetics and womb conditions. So your idea of what a toilet represents is entirely subjective. In many US states also.

Especially in such cases, given there is a shit load more grey to sex and gender than you seem to like to admit.

Barring all this, you do understand the idea of this being a cultural problem, rather than one about the philosophy of liberty or biological dislike of trans people.

It seems the US is the only country in the Westthat has a problem with trans people using the bathhroom of their gender. Given that they are gendered, not biologically 'sexed' ... given that you can have two of one, and 50'000 of the other. Dislike of trans people is culturally reinforced, it's not biological. You have trans people using bathrooms in other countries ... not a problem. As I said before, this woman would have had a problem with trans men in her bathroom situation.

She was likely going to be unhappy regardless, so long as trans people went to her gym, and whether Planet Fitness has said one way or another.

Put this into perspective.

One trans woman .... one complaint. That's all I can find ... and suddenly on the basis of one complaint you're turning around and pretending this is an issue. This exact scenario was played out in the California incident. It has nothing to do with liberty, it has to do with a surviving minority still finding trans people objectionable. That's prejudice and bigotry. This entire forum topic has been nothing but that.

Preconceived notions of what evil trans people will do if they get the bathroom bill passed in other states! Oooooooh! Trans panic ... that pretty much sums it up.

Where I come from, Transgendered, or Two spirits, are not considered male or female but their own gender. According to my culture, we have at least 4 genders, they actually believe there are more, but they generally consider most to be one of 4 genders. The problem is you are trying to cram people into 2 genders, when that is not even close to being correct. Male, female, male to female and female to male are the 4 primary genders in Hopi culture, however, they do believe there are more than that due to male to female having many degrees in between and female to male having many degrees in between.

If facilities are classified by gender, they do not have enough facilities, however, facilities are classified by sex not gender. This is not about one woman, this is about many people, and that is the issue. Women cannot use urinals the same as men, nor should they be expected to. Men cannot use tampons the same as women do either, and nor would we expect them to. The issue is the facilities are designed for sex, not gender. When I showered in the locker room, we were naked and in close proximity, there were no walls between us. DO you not know how many locker room showers are?

The reason they have these facilities segregated by sex in the first place is to not have random naked penises and vagina's naked in close proximity, if you are going to have naked penises and vagina's in close proximity there is no point in having separate facilities to begin with, as they didn't separate them due to how one feels, they didn't want any issues with vagina's and penises being naked in the same area. We were naked in the locker rooms and the restrooms at school.

Also not all restrooms have doors either, my school did not, and many new designs are removing them due to touching doors in the restroom before washing your hands is unsanitary. Many are choosing to go touch free for flushing, soap, water, towels, dryers, and yes, now lacking doors to prevent the spread of germs.

EDIT: Also what are you going on about a " biological dislike of trans people"? Seriously? Where I come people do not hate transgendered people, instead, prior to having to hide our tribes transgendered from the Christian crusaders they were treated as royalty, the highest social class, not discriminated against. In come cultures, transgenders are considered to be gifted and a great asset to society and were never treated poorly. They are proud to not be male or female, because they are considered to be even more gifted due to being the way they are.

 

[Silvanus]

Standing on the side of the "Obviously transphobic hateful monsters" because I view transgenders as, in all honestly, reality deniers.

What, even in the face of both neurobiological and psychological evidence of its existence? You're the one believing contrary to the scientific consensus.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Hmm, after thinking on this, I still maintain that segregating on sex makes more sense than gender. But since for the majority of people, sex = gender, it wouldn't really change matters for the worse to simply make that step, even if it does make less sense conceptually. So we may as well go by gender, since it seems less complicated than the alternative.

Plus I still don't get the arguments about perverts using the law to ogle the opposite sex. It seems that even if men were legally allowed to enter the women's restrooms under the guise of being transgendered, they would still be treated with suspicion, which would make it rather hard to get away with anything. Surely if men wanted to perv on women in their restrooms they would simply try to "pass" as women so they wouldn't be called out for being in the wrong room, rather claiming to be transgender and using the law with impunity. Isn't stealth a major part of voyeurism?
In theory, sex segregated restrooms would stop perverts, and gender segregated restrooms would allow it. In practice, you simply have to look female to enter the female restrooms, regardless of the law. So whether it was legal or not for you to be in the restroom is irrelevant. All that matters is if you can get away with it.

Captcha: dogs and cats living together.
Stop it captcha, you're scaring me!

The issue I think in regards to " pervs" and restrooms is a bit more serious than that. When I bartended in college we had women sexually assaulted repeatedly in the bathrooms. Men would drag women into the restroom and would assault them. This is actually a serious problem and quite common. Just Google "raped in restroom" and you will see the countless stories of how this happens. Women have been raped in both male and female facilities, and the " keeping males out of the ladies room" is frequently taken very serious at places like clubs and bars due to how much this happens and trying to help prevent it. The reason women behave as aggressive as they do when men enter the restroom even spraying with mace or using tasers is they fear being attacked in there since it happens so frequently. They assume if a man is in there, he is there to attack them, and understandably so.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

The issue I think in regards to " pervs" and restrooms is a bit more serious than that. When I bartended in college we had women sexually assaulted repeatedly in the bathrooms. Men would drag women into the restroom and would assault them. This is actually a serious problem and quite common. Just Google "raped in restroom" and you will see the countless stories of how this happens. Women have been raped in both male and female facilities, and the " keeping males out of the ladies room" is frequently taken very serious at places like clubs and bars due to how much this happens and trying to help prevent it. The reason women behave as aggressive as they do when men enter the restroom even spraying with mace or using tasers is they fear being attacked in there since it happens so frequently. They assume if a man is in there, he is there to attack them, and understandably so.

Hmmm, I guess. This does seem like an unfortunate battle with no win-win answer. No matter what happens, someone will be unhappy with the outcome.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Where I come from, Transgendered, or Two spirits, are not considered male or female but their own gender. According to my culture, we have at least 4 genders, they actually believe there are more, but they generally consider most to be one of 4 genders. The problem is you are trying to cram people into 2 genders, when that is not even close to being correct. Male, female, male to female and female to male are the 4 primary genders in Hopi culture, however, they do believe there are more than that due to male to female having many degrees in between and female to male having many degrees in between.

Where did I try to do this? Also, culture does not trump individual rights ... human rights trump culture. It's called 'the pursuit of liberty'.

If facilities are classified by gender, they do not have enough facilities, however, facilities are classified by sex not gender.

I can show you plenty of national & state-based legal codices from all over the world where they treat accomodations of this type as gender, not sex based.

This is not about one woman, this is about many people, and that is the issue.

That's funny, because from where I sit and have researched it seems to be a non-issue ... that the fear of trans people in a bathroom exceeds the intellect and reason of people forgetting they have a moral compact not to treat people like walking piles of flesh.

Women cannot use urinals the same as men, nor should they be expected to.

Absolutely ... which is why we have multiple types of human waste receptacles.

Men cannot use tampons the same as women do either, and nor would we expect them to.

I -- what?

The issue is the facilities are designed for sex, not gender. When I showered in the locker room, we were naked and in close proximity, there were no walls between us. DO you not know how many locker room showers are?

Nope ... the only locker rooms I've been in are work related, and they have stalls. Even our high school showers had stalls. It was also gender neutral.

The reason they have these facilities segregated by sex in the first place ....

Even though they're not...

... is to not have random naked penises and vagina's naked in close proximity, if you are going to have naked penises and vagina's in close proximity there is no point in having separate facilities to begin with, as they didn't separate them due to how one feels, they didn't want any issues with vagina's and penises being naked in the same area. We were naked in the locker rooms and the restrooms at school.

I agree .. stalls are wonderful things. If a restroom has no stalls, I would say that would be the minority rather than majority. If restrooms have stalls, what is the problem?

Also not all restrooms have doors either, my school did not and many new designs are removing them due to touching doors in the restroom before washing your hands is unsanitary. Many are choosing to go touch free for flushing, soap, water, towels, dryers, and yes, now lacking doors to prevent the spread of germs.

I've seen these types of toilets ... everyone I've seen has a sharp left or right turn at entrance and a privacy screen/wall right in front for that reason. Non issue.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Where I come from, Transgendered, or Two spirits, are not considered male or female but their own gender. According to my culture, we have at least 4 genders, they actually believe there are more, but they generally consider most to be one of 4 genders. The problem is you are trying to cram people into 2 genders, when that is not even close to being correct. Male, female, male to female and female to male are the 4 primary genders in Hopi culture, however, they do believe there are more than that due to male to female having many degrees in between and female to male having many degrees in between.

Where did I try to do this? Also, culture does not trump individual rights ... human rights trump culture. It's called 'the pursuit of liberty'.

If facilities are classified by gender, they do not have enough facilities, however, facilities are classified by sex not gender.

I can show you plenty of national state-based legal codices from all over the world where they treat accomodations of this type as gender, not sex based.

This is not about one woman, this is about many people, and that is the issue.

That's funny, because from where I sit and have researched it seems to be a non-issue ... that the fear of trans people in a bathroom exceeds the intellect and reason of people forgetting they have a moral conduct to respect that one is not a man or woman simply because of their genes or womb conditions.

Women cannot use urinals the same as men, nor should they be expected to.

Absolutely ... which is why we have multiple human waste receptacles.

Men cannot use tampons the same as women do either, and nor would we expect them to.

I -- what?

The issue is the facilities are designed for sex, not gender. When I showered in the locker room, we were naked and in close proximity, there were no walls between us. DO you not know how many locker room showers are?

Nope ... the only locker rooms I've been in are work releted, and they have stalls. Even our high school showers had stalls. It was also gender neutral.

The reason they have these facilities segregated by sex in the first place ....

Even though they're not...

... is to not have random naked penises and vagina's naked in close proximity, if you are going to have naked penises and vagina's in close proximity there is no point in having separate facilities to begin with, as they didn't separate them due to how one feels, they didn't want any issues with vagina's and penises being naked in the same area. We were naked in the locker rooms and the restrooms at school.

I agree .. stalls are wonderful things. If a restroom has no stalls, I would say that would be the minority rather than majority. If restrooms have stalls, what is the problem?

Also not all restrooms have doors either, my school did not and many new designs are removing them due to touching doors in the restroom before washing your hands is unsanitary. Many are choosing to go touch free for flushing, soap, water, towels, dryers, and yes, now lacking doors to prevent the spread of germs.

I've seen these types of toilets ... everyone I've seen has a sharp left or right turn at entrance and a privacy screen/wall right in front for that reason. Non issue.

My school did not have doors on toilets, the showers did not have dividers, the showers were huddled up together where we were pretty much shoulder to shoulder naked while showering. No, our restrooms were not like that at all they were like this:

and our showers like this:

but our shower heads were actually much closer together, no dividers. I do not think you understand how the schools are built here. Just google " locker room showers' and you will see they make them like this... I do not think you realize how many are built this way.

EDIT: also.. human rights?what are you talking about? having more than 2 genders should be a human right, they should not be forced into cookie cutter molds they do not fit in to.
this is how close our showers were:

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Hmm, after thinking on this, I still maintain that segregating on sex makes more sense than gender. But since for the majority of people, sex = gender, it wouldn't really change matters for the worse to simply make that step, even if it does make less sense conceptually. So we may as well go by gender, since it seems less complicated than the alternative.

Plus I still don't get the arguments about perverts using the law to ogle the opposite sex. It seems that even if men were legally allowed to enter the women's restrooms under the guise of being transgendered, they would still be treated with suspicion, which would make it rather hard to get away with anything. Surely if men wanted to perv on women in their restrooms they would simply try to "pass" as women so they wouldn't be called out for being in the wrong room, rather claiming to be transgender and using the law with impunity. Isn't stealth a major part of voyeurism?
In theory, sex segregated restrooms would stop perverts, and gender segregated restrooms would allow it. In practice, you simply have to look female to enter the female restrooms, regardless of the law. So whether it was legal or not for you to be in the restroom is irrelevant. All that matters is if you can get away with it.

Captcha: dogs and cats living together.
Stop it captcha, you're scaring me!

I'm not sure where you're getting this 'practicality' angle from. It's practical to police if trans people who wish to live in stealth should be forced to be outed at work or in public or face government persecution? Policing toilet use ... because you have to remember that that's what a lot of lobbyists have gone for...

( http://www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2015/01/18/kentucky-lawmaker-fine-schools-2500-every-time-trans-student-uses-wr )

Public good is the ultimate form of pragmatism. Given that the idea that trasgender people are the least likely to start violence, and far more likely to be on the receiving end, why do you think stealth is so important to many of them?

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

EDIT: also.. human rights?what are you talking about? having more than 2 genders should be a human right, they should not be forced into cookie cutter molds they do not fit in to.

Right to expression, freedom from government persecution ...?

They should also not be forced into having to out themselves just by going to the toilet. That's fucking insane.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

EDIT: also.. human rights?what are you talking about? having more than 2 genders should be a human right, they should not be forced into cookie cutter molds they do not fit in to.

Right to expression, freedom from government persecution ...?

They should also not be forced into having to out themselves just by going to the toilet. That's fucking insane.

If you used a toilet in my school you would be already...why do you think I was telling you they need more options?

The problem is making them feel like they have to fit into one of two genders to begin with and making people feel bad for not being either. They should be proud for who they are. They need to know it is good to be the way they are.

 

[Akjosch]

I say we simply should have a single locker room for everyone. Why segregate the sexes any longer?

Pretty much this. We already have all-gender saunas everywhere here (Germany) and nearly everyone is butt-naked in there. Same for nudists' beaches; they're everywhere, you can stumble upon one while simply jogging or riding along, and nobody but the most ultra-puritan die-hards cares. The more we teach people in general to not treat each other's bodies as some mysterious enigma but simply as your mortal shell and quite unimportant to how you value or treat the person, the better.

 

[carnex]

All I can say about this, and I know I will be roasted on this, is that need of many outweighs need of a few.

If there are 20 people in a locker room and one of them is transgender that didn't underwent body change with following statements being true.

- transgender person is uncomfortable with using locker room of it's body's sex
- several or more of sex/gender aligned persons are uncomfortable with having person of opposite sex in their locker room

then the transgender person is in the minority. Unless that person thinks that they are center of the universe and everyone has to bow to their feelings that person would realize that their feeling and opinion are of no higher value than those of others. If that person is uncomfortable about being naked or lightly clothed around people of opposite sex bodies, that does not override everyone else feelings.

Once I was extremely body over-self-conscious and I had severe anxiety about being naked around everyone. Now, I would be advocate for unified locker rooms for everyone. IN the long run, i think, it would lead to much better prevailing opinions on gender/sex.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

If you used a toilet in my school you would be already...why do you think I was telling you they need more options?

The problem is making them feel like they have to fit into one of two genders to begin with and making people feel bad for not being either. They should be proud for who they are. They need to know it is good to be the way they are.

Of which why I've been arguing gender neutral toilets for awhile. But this has to arise from public acceptance of identity being more important than what chromosomes, given this is not cast iron determination of identity. The points you raised, I have never seen it to be a personal issue to me. I can't talk about how you lived, but I can tell you that the issues you bring up? Meaningless here.

Also, you might wish to let individuals choose how they wish to identify. I'm genderqueer myself, I chose HRT and surgery because I knew what I was, and felt the need to self authenticate. And guess what? Feel 10 times better than I did years ago prior treatment. Strictly flesh and mind ... I need no spirituality or cultural values attached to it, thank you.

 

[Thaluikhain]

All I can say about this, and I know I will be roasted on this, is that need of many outweighs need of a few.

You mean the prejudices of the many outweigh the rights of the few. Not quite the same thing.

Again, if there are a bunch of racist white people in the locker room, should we deny black people it's use?

 

[carnex]

All I can say about this, and I know I will be roasted on this, is that need of many outweighs need of a few.

You mean the prejudices of the many outweigh the rights of the few. Not quite the same thing.

Again, if there are a bunch of racist white people in the locker room, should we deny black people it's use?

But locker rooms are not race separated. They, however, are sex separated. And it's supported by majority of population, probably in either sex. It's consensus, not top down enforced decision.

To quote myself

Once I was extremely body over-self-conscious and I had severe anxiety about being naked around everyone. Now, I would be advocate for unified locker rooms for everyone. IN the long run, i think, it would lead to much better prevailing opinions on gender/sex.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

If you used a toilet in my school you would be already...why do you think I was telling you they need more options?

The problem is making them feel like they have to fit into one of two genders to begin with and making people feel bad for not being either. They should be proud for who they are. They need to know it is good to be the way they are.

Of which why I've been arguing gender neutral toilets for awhile. But this has to arise from public acceptance of identity being more important than what chromosomes, given this is not cast iron determination of identity. The points you raised, I have never seen it to be a personal issue to me. I can't talk about how you lived, but I can tell you that the issues you bring up? Meaningless here.

Also, you might wish to let individuals choose how they wish to identify. I'm genderqueer myself, I chose HRT and surgery because I knew what I was, and felt the need to self authenticate. And guess what? Feel 10 times better than I did years ago prior treatment. Strictly flesh and mind ... I need no spirituality or cultural values attached to it, thank you.

Yes, but just like you do not like having what others want you to do imposed on to you, you do not get to decide for all other transgenders what they should feel comfortable doing. MANY two spirits have no desire to risk their health to undergo dangerous surgeries when they are perfectly healthy and happy with their bodies the way they are because they were raised in an environment that never expected them to be anything else and celebrated them for being who they are. Why would they want to change when those around them and themselves see themselves as being perfect already? Not everyone sees things the same way, and for you, you would have been comfortable using the toilets and showers pictured above prior to surgery, or even after? There really are not a lot of options for those who are using these facilities. If we do not require the law to provide additional facilities, they will be forced to use showers and restrooms as pictured above...

No matter what is done, a transgendered person will never know what it is like to have been born a body of the opposite sex, their brain will never be one sex or the other even if they make their body the way they think it should be. I see pressuring people who have healthy bodies to have risky surgeries that could affect their health and shorten their lifespan because society says " this is what a man or woman should look like" rather than appreciating them for who they are and them realizing they are already perfect, and not forcing them to choose between being a man or woman at all. It would be better for more to be happy with the way they are rather than allow media and societal pressures to give them a poor self image enough to risk self harm to change themselves.

I think that the more society accepts them for who they are, the less people overall will have such a poor self image that they want to change it. When society already sees you as perfect, you often will see yourself that way as well.