Poll: A sensitive question about transgender and locker rooms

[Demagogue]

No, no I can't tell that is a man in a dress. that is a HUMAN in a dress sure, but based on the photo alone, she is simply a bigger woman.

Again, you might want to have your eyes checked because that is CLEARLY a dude in a dress.

No, it isn't clearly a dude... and really at this point we are arguing difference in opinion of what we think 'women' need to look like which is a whole different argument.

I believe you read this story with an extremely biased point of view. It clearly states that as she perceived it a strange man walked in on her while she was undressing, how is that not supposed to make her uncomfortable? Alot of people are accusing her of being a transphobic bigot, for saying "he looked like a man" this basically just expresses that she could not tell by lookong at them that they were even trans. Is it reasonable to assume all trans people are passable? Is it reasonable to assume all people are educated in the complex minutia of trans life? Is it reasonable to assume she has even ever seen a trans woman before? Is it reasonable to assume she can tell the difference without a name tag that says "hi i am trans" and an hour of conversation?

Which brings me to another point I'm not sure has been made or not and that is that folks typically don't gussy themselves up for a trip to the gym. The person in question isn't very damn convincing while trying their hardest I can only imagine what he would look like in a more casual setting. It's not entirely unlikely to think that he was very likely simply in shorts and a t shirt at which point he would look EXACTLY like a man who happens to be in the women's locker room. I can only imagine that if you are some woman it's pretty fucking creepy to stumble across some random dude in the women's locker room.

Actually I just read the dailymail article... the two times she has gone to the gym has been in leggings and a baggy t-shirt. How many men do you know wear leggings to the gym? (not that they couldn't, we just generally don't). So should a transwoman have to dress in overtly feminine outfits (eg dresses, which can be worn by both, but are predominately worn by women) at all time to make sure people understand she is a woman? I almost... almost went and posted a bunch of different pictures of men dressed as women, women dressed as women and gave you all a little quiz on which was which, but screw that, I'd be no better than XanCo at that point.

And I believe people (or at least I am) calling her transphobic and a bigot, because even AFTER the fact that she knows this person is a woman, she keeps refering to her as a man.

Is it reasonable to assume all trans people are passable?
Yes it is, because I (or you, or anyone) shouldn't get to tell another person what is passable as female or male.

Is it reasonable to assume all people are educated in the complex minutia of trans life?
In the USA no because their education is a joke. But yes, translife should be part of sex ed in all schools worldwide as far as I'm concerned.

Is it reasonable to assume she has even ever seen a trans woman before?
Well we don't have to assume this one... She HAS seen a transwoman Should it matter if she hadn't?

Is it reasonable to assume she can tell the difference without a name tag that says "hi i am trans" and an hour of conversation?
And this should matter why? She is in there to change to workout at a gym. Not to pick up people. That seems to be a common theme in this thread, that some people are intimiated by changing infront of someone of the other sex, well guess what, the other person is there for one purpose, to change in order to workout as well. They aren't there to oogle you.

This world is getting stranger and stranger. I have met multiple furries, I have never even seen a trans person outside of media (it is possible I have seen one that is completely passable, but i find the hands to be dead giveaways in media). With such a tiny minority, it is not reasonable to expect everyone to understand you. The only reason i know anything about trans people is i took a specific interest because I found it fascinating.

You say you've never even seen a transperson outside of media and I have one simple question for you. How do you know that? Unless you ask every person you meet if they are trans (which I doubt because you don't seem like an asshole) you may work besides a trans person and simply not know, because as @PaulH pointed out, many live their entire lives 'in-stealth'.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Just as one can be a man or a woman, they can be a two spirit, that IS HUMAN, and it is insulting to all of those who take pride in being two spirit to claim they are not.

Where did I do this? I renounce what you think I am. That is what I renounce. Because I disagree on your analysis of my condition does not mean I'm belittling an entire culture.

If your brain scans show you to be between to male and female spectrum, that is what would be defined as two spirit by definition.

How about if you let people identify, and self authenticate themselves rather than pretending you have any right to?

The brain scans of males, female, and transgenders are different, and the transgender brain is neither male or female, and they should be proud of this, it is natural and healthy. In Native American cultures, these people are called two spirits, that is not an insult, or degrading it is what they are called instead of transgender. Many consider transgender to be more of a degrading term than two spirits and prefer to use that solely to define themselves.

And yet ... given I am transgender, you find my personal input invalid in regards to my self identification? Come now ... you'll need stronger. Does it at all surprise you that trans people consider themselves man or woman based on their own self authentication? If you are going to call these people liars, then what right do you have to summon my respect for superstition as key to understanding self?

It is great that those things helped you with what you decided was wrong with your life, the issue though is what you experienced in your life that made you feel you needed to both externally and internally. Societies expectations of what it means to be male or female are part of the problem, not all societies make people feel as though they have to be one or the other in the first place. You cannot rewind and erase everything you have been exposed to since birth and change how your own perceptions of what it means to be male and female to auto correct all of the negative data you have received, but some who were instead celebrated for being two spirit never developed a negative self image, instead they loved themselves just he way they are.

I experienced philosophy, actually. It give me the means to articulate my despair ... and it gave me the strength to realise that my self expression is not merely valid, but also a stepping stone to achieving a society that can be free from artificial ideas of the essentialism of mankind. I didn't choose to physically change because of society's ideas of man or woman, but rather on my belief that there is no universal man or woman for anyone to make any valid criticism of a transgender identity.

It is great these things helped you, and I hope they continue to help you, Some however, do not see that there is anything wrong on themselves that needs to be fixed, nor should they be pressured to.

Of course not. I am, if nothing else, a libertarian.

If we change societies view of " what is normal" we will also change how people view themselves. When it becomes normal and considered a great thing to be two spirited, less people will have the desire to change themselves because they will already feel normal.

The problem is not feeling you are perfect to begin with, what in your environment made you feel that way, and how we go about making everyone feel as they are perfect the way they are so they all have a positive self image from the start.

And yet just as it is not for people to pretend there is normal, nor is it for you to determine who is 'two spirit'. Certainly not without the persona so identified. Why not listen to them first, to see how they feel?

Medical consensus disproves what? My choice fields of study were Immunology and Pediatric Medicine, and I am fully aware that the studies have shown and that the transgender brain scans have shown that their brains are neither male or female, but in between. I think you misunderstand, I am not saying that you should not have surgeries if that is what you feel you need. However, I am stating that we need to address the issues in society that are pressuring people into thinking they are broken and need fixed, when they are not.

Medical consensus shows that treatment, hrt and surgical, if so desired reduces cases of suicide and increases general social participation. Though I dislike this idea that people 'need to be fixed' ....

Whilst certainly, many transgender people articulate this as such, I see it more in terms of self authentication. Something I will myself to be. It's my choice, regardless ... I see it less as fixing a problem, but rather being more true to self. Being unfaithful to one's idea of self is not necessarily a person who is 'broken'.

Indeed, I hold in confidence a gay friend who came out to me, but is afraid of what his family will say. Pretending, in the mean time, if only to give him a chance to properly come out on his own time. I do not see him as 'broken', but I do see him as reaching for his self authentication in all aspects of his life.

He is striving for it. It is a part of his character. Not broken, merely human. A crime we're all guilty of.

If you are a person people will think you are a person. If you are a two spirit people will think you are a two spirit. That is how this works. It is like saying a rock is a rock or water is water. IT is what things are by definition. I'm sorry just because I want to be called a frog, does not mean that I am one, nor would I expect people to call me one.

See, you claim that people get to decided for themselves what they will be classified as by others, and that is not true. You can be born two spirit (transgender) but you cannot be born a rock simply because you want to call yourself a rock. It is like saying you have 16 toes when everyone else will tell you that you have 10. We have names and definitions to communicate, we do not get to change what those mean individually at will, that is done by society. We would not be able to communicate if we did not use words such as two spirit or transgender, different cultures have different languages and words that are defined, and yes if the person is between male and female they are a two spirit by definition, and it is a word of honor, not an insult. The reason why some prefer to be called two spirit over trans is due to the definition of trans :

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trans-
a prefix meaning ?on the other side of,? referring to the misalignment.

The problem with this definition, it claims there is a misalignment. That infers that something is wrong, and there is nothing wrong with being two spirit. They disagree that this is a misalignment, instead they were meant to be another sex than their gender, and it is not misaligned at all, it is how it was meant to be. The very definition of the word makes them feel as though there is something wrong with them, when it is perfectly normal, natural and healthy to be born a different gender than your body. There is no such negativity associated with being a two spirit. Though if you are a transgender in western culture, you are a two spirit in native culture, they can be used as synonyms for each other, as the only difference is that they do not use the word misaligned which is a negative word meaning that something is wrong with them. I do not get to decide where I am in the spectrum between male and female, I am simply am the way I am regardless of how people choose to define what that means. If my brain scans show me to be two spirit that I am one, that isn't a choice, it is " just how we are". Just as if I have 2 legs, everyone will tell me I have 2 legs. I would sound like I was out of my mind if I ran around trying to tell people I want them to tell me I have 4 legs just because I say so. That would be silly. I use the word two spirit because it does not have the negative definition that transgender does. I see nothing wrong with being a different gender than your genitals.

The problem with how we see our selves, is we have no way of knowing if under different social circumstances that we would see ourselves different than we currently do. For example, if two spirits are considered the "perfect human" the best actors, the sexiest models, socialites that everyone admired and looked up to (as they actually were in Native culture) being able to choose to date whoever they wish and many admirers and an entourage wherever they go, why would they want to change? The truth in native society is they didn't want to change because that is exactly how they were treated. In Hopi culture two spirits were the highest social status that could be achieved and when the Europeans came the people were forced to hide and protect them from the christian crusaders because they would hunt them and kill them if found. It is in western society that they have to hide, and be stealth, that does not exist everywhere.

How we view ourselves is created in part by our environment and societal pressures help create our own identity. Whether those pressures are negative or positive greatly impact this, and will be reflected in our decisions. People feel pressured to be a man or a woman due to the pressures society places on them, not that they would necessarily choose to be so if those pressures are removed.

If a two spirit never has pressures to be anything other than what they are born, they do not see that there is anything wrong that needs to be fixed. They are happy with the way they are because they are admired or being the way they are, it is seen as a gift, a blessing, not a curse. " I am as I am" You are as you are" rather than "I am not good enough and need to be changed." The very definition of trans implies that something is broken, that is part of the problem. The west still views being trans as being broken and needing to be fixed. I see that as part of the problem, not the solution.

What needs to be resolved in western society is that they have to stop seeing two spirits as being broken to begin with. In Hopi society, they do not just have 2 genders to begin with, so there is nothing that is considered broken in the first place.

 

[Batou667]

The story; a woman has had her membership revoked from Planet Fitness

She dodged a bullet. NOBODY should ""work out"" at Planet Fitness (quad quotation marks for emphasis).

As for the changing room question: I've always held that "Female changing room" implicitly means female-bodied people, since the sex-gender divide apparently makes it necessary to spell that out. Arguments based on sexuality fall flat because we let homosexuals use changing rooms of their own gender; the cultural norm being adhered to here is the idea that we're voluntarily segregating by body-type, even if there's no (straw) man at the door performing genital inspections on entry.

Put as tactfully as I can manage; if a trans person doesn't pass as their chosen sex, they should anticipate discomfort caused by their presence and take steps to mitigate it, not place 100% of the onus on the rest of society. People aren't psychic, they don't know what you identify as; and a male-bodied person in a female changing room is generally cause for concern. That's just a fact of life.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

If you are a person people will think you are a person. If you are a two spirit people will think you are a two spirit. That is how this works. It is like saying a rock is a rock or water is water. IT is what things are by definition. I'm sorry just because I want to be called a frog, does not mean that I am one, nor would I expect people to call me one.

You know when people have fuck all to say when they go to the;

"Therefore if I think I'm (x)...." Essentialist garbage.

Implying that someone identifying as human is SOMEHOW akin to someone saying they identify as a piece of inanimate matter or an animal beyond that which is human.

Prove to me there is a universal man or woman, or don't pretend there is. And certainly don't pretend it's the same as calling yourself a 'frog'. Utter garbage, and broken philosophical premises.

It's obvious you didn't even bother to read anything I wrote, or my reasons for being ... insisting with your shitty narrative, and pretending as if it were true. It's not ... it's broken. Both in basic logic, philosophy, and utterly unrepresented in my life. If you're willing to pretend you wish the good of trans people, the first step would be to actually talk to a few of them.

At the very least, preferable to just pretending your base, broken ideas are at all representative of the nature of the people you purport to be so worried about.

What I find terribly discouraging, is that you think you stand for the good of transgender persons when it is so blatantly obvious that your rhetoric is part and parcel why transgender people find themselves so maligned. Deepest hypocrisy, and entirely lacking in the intellectual honesty to listen to the thoughts or feelings of trans people despite wishing to argue their non-existence.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

If you are a person people will think you are a person. If you are a two spirit people will think you are a two spirit. That is how this works. It is like saying a rock is a rock or water is water. IT is what things are by definition. I'm sorry just because I want to be called a frog, does not mean that I am one, nor would I expect people to call me one.

You know when people have fuck all to say when they go to the;

"Therefore if I think I'm (x)...." Essentialist garbage.

Because someone identifying as human is SOMEHOW just as easy as saying someone they identify as a piece of inanimate matter.

Prove to me there is a universal man or woman, or don;t pretend there is. And certainly don't pretend it's the same as calling yourself a 'frog'. Given that we have had a multiplicity of cultures across this Earth, throughout time, write wildly discordant things about manhood and womanhood. Also, the rest of what you say? Utter garbage, and broken philosophical premises.

It's obvious you didn't even bother to read anything I wrote, or my reasons for being ... insisting with your shitty narrative, and pretending as if it were true. It's not ... it's broken. Both in basic logic, philosophy, and utterly unrepresented in my life. If you're willing to pretend you wish the good of trans people, the first step would be to actually talk to a few of them.

Might be a good step. Rather than pretending your base, broken ideas are at all representative of the nature of the people you purport to be so worried about.

I do not even think you read what I wrote, the west sees people as broken if they do not fit into their idea of "woman and man" and thus that is the problem with how they treat two spirits in Western society. You refuse to address that is the primary issue.
"Talk to a few"? REALLY? You actually go around telling people that when they tell you that society should not pressure people to change who they are and make baseless assumptions about them? What broken ideas? Please do tell, you did not even bother reading what you are responding to. Western society treats two spirits as broken and needing to be fixed, and you are telling me that is a broken idea? LMAO that is absurd. You make unfounded assumptions. Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

You are not even considering things from any view other than your own and are behaving completely close minded in how these things affect others who do not share your sentiment.Instead you prematurely judge them. It isn't like you are the only person here born that enjoyed things that were considered " only for the opposite sex" or that is intimate with their own sex, or that has emotions that are considered not appropriate for your own sex. Think about it for a second, maybe you will start to see things for what they are instead of blowing it out.

Yea go ahead, put your hands on your hips and spout " I'm trans and everyone who disagrees with could not possibly understand." BS some more without even knowing Anything about the people you are speaking to.

Spoiler

If you bothered to look through my post history, you would see:
1)I am bisexual and have had sexual activity with both males and females.
2) Almost all of my hobbies, likes and dislikes are what are considered appropriate for the opposite sex, not my sex.
3)I wear both male and female attire.
4)I was told from a young age I have personality traits associated with the opposite sex.
.. This just from my post history on this site alone, yet, I need to go " talk to a few" eh?
Get over yourself.
I have never really worried about it either way though. "I am as I am" and never felt a need to classify myself or change myself. I like my body, I like my interests and I am not the one who has a problem here, it is western society that thinks I should have to choose a toy isle as a kid, not me. I am not so "stuck on myself" that I obsess over every little thing about me, physically or emotionally. I do not put much thought into the things that I see as non important and just like what I do. I look at it as life being too short to worry about petty things.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

Similarly, just because "two spirit" is something that applies to some, does not mean it should be applied to all trans people.

How is insisting that trans people must identify as two spirit any better than insisting they identify as their biological sex or whatever people say?

If you bothered to look through my post history, you would see:

With respect, none of that makes you transgender.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

Similarly, just because "two spirit" is something that applies to some, does not mean it should be applied to all trans people.

How is insisting that trans people must identify as two spirit any better than insisting they identify as their biological sex or whatever people say?

If you bothered to look through my post history, you would see:

With respect, none of that makes you transgender.

No, but my brain scans would, even if I personally never see myself that way. "Two spirit" includes anyone who has both male and female qualities. It includes all LGBT. It is just a definition, there is no negative associated with " two spirit" as there is with " trans" however. " two spirit" comes from the idea that one is both a boy and a girl in some way, there are different degrees and many ways to be so whether it is a girl who likes boy things, or a boy who dresses as a girl matter not, they are all included.

 

[Rosiv]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

Similarly, just because "two spirit" is something that applies to some, does not mean it should be applied to all trans people.

How is insisting that trans people must identify as two spirit any better than insisting they identify as their biological sex or whatever people say?

If you bothered to look through my post history, you would see:

With respect, none of that makes you transgender.

No, but my brain scans would, even if I personally never see myself that way. "Two spirit" includes anyone who has both male and female qualities. It includes all LGBT. It is just a definition, there is no negative associated with " two spirit" as there is with " trans" however. " two spirit" comes from the idea that one is both a boy and a girl in some way, there are different degrees and many ways to be so.

The key issue is why do you get to tell other people what they are based on your culture's definition? Just because you see being male/female as not a negative doesn't mean that others find it a boon. It is hypocritical of you to tell other people what to identify as, given you are a native american, and historically those people were often attempted to be forced into roles they saw not fit?

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

Similarly, just because "two spirit" is something that applies to some, does not mean it should be applied to all trans people.

How is insisting that trans people must identify as two spirit any better than insisting they identify as their biological sex or whatever people say?

If you bothered to look through my post history, you would see:

With respect, none of that makes you transgender.

No, but my brain scans would, even if I personally never see myself that way. "Two spirit" includes anyone who has both male and female qualities. It includes all LGBT. It is just a definition, there is no negative associated with " two spirit" as there is with " trans" however. " two spirit" comes from the idea that one is both a boy and a girl in some way, there are different degrees and many ways to be so.

The key issue is why do you get to tell other people what they are based on your culture's definition? Just because you see being male/female as not a negative doesn't mean that others find it a boon. It is hypocritical of you to tell other people what to identify as, given you are a native american, and historically those people were often attempted to be forced into roles they saw not fit?

EXACTLY! Why do they get to tell me based on their culture? Our definition is all inclusive, why would I want a definition that says we are broken if gender and sex are not the same? YIKES. It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

And PLEASE.. " THOSE PEOPLE" lol.. There are thousands of tribes, ALL different religions, cultures, and people. "Native Americans" are not " one people". Hopi people do not even force their children to do things. Everyone must have their own choice how they live.

Two spirits in Hopi culture were celebrities, according to our history, other tribes accounts, and western accounts, Hopi two spirits were treated the most royal of them all, with large entourages and treated with lavish gifts.

 

[Rosiv]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

Similarly, just because "two spirit" is something that applies to some, does not mean it should be applied to all trans people.

How is insisting that trans people must identify as two spirit any better than insisting they identify as their biological sex or whatever people say?

If you bothered to look through my post history, you would see:

With respect, none of that makes you transgender.

No, but my brain scans would, even if I personally never see myself that way. "Two spirit" includes anyone who has both male and female qualities. It includes all LGBT. It is just a definition, there is no negative associated with " two spirit" as there is with " trans" however. " two spirit" comes from the idea that one is both a boy and a girl in some way, there are different degrees and many ways to be so.

The key issue is why do you get to tell other people what they are based on your culture's definition? Just because you see being male/female as not a negative doesn't mean that others find it a boon. It is hypocritical of you to tell other people what to identify as, given you are a native american, and historically those people were often attempted to be forced into roles they saw not fit?

EXACTLY! Why do they get to tell me based on their culture? Our definition is all inclusive, why would I want a definition that says we are broken if gender and sex are not the same? YIKES. It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

No LoL. YOU. Why do you get to tell them? It is either an opinion or a fact. You dont get to have it both ways.

It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

A word being negative has nothing to do with one being a hypocritical person. Being a hypocritical person means you have a apparent view, but contradict it. And if one contradicts themselves, why should we trust them? If people tell you that they will live with you in peace, and contradict that notion by slaughtering your friends and allies, is that not a hypocritical person?

Dont tell me your culture is "Better" at gender than any others, because that is an opinion, and if that's all you want to espouse, that's fine since this is a internet fourm. But when people tell you contrary, dont act surprised.

Edit: I am sorry if i offended you by calling Native american's as a monoculture. How would you like me to refer to the native people of america ?

 

[Maxtro]

Regardless if a man truly believes he is a woman, it does not give him the right to make all other women in the room uncomfortable with his presence.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

Similarly, just because "two spirit" is something that applies to some, does not mean it should be applied to all trans people.

How is insisting that trans people must identify as two spirit any better than insisting they identify as their biological sex or whatever people say?

If you bothered to look through my post history, you would see:

With respect, none of that makes you transgender.

No, but my brain scans would, even if I personally never see myself that way. "Two spirit" includes anyone who has both male and female qualities. It includes all LGBT. It is just a definition, there is no negative associated with " two spirit" as there is with " trans" however. " two spirit" comes from the idea that one is both a boy and a girl in some way, there are different degrees and many ways to be so.

The key issue is why do you get to tell other people what they are based on your culture's definition? Just because you see being male/female as not a negative doesn't mean that others find it a boon. It is hypocritical of you to tell other people what to identify as, given you are a native american, and historically those people were often attempted to be forced into roles they saw not fit?

EXACTLY! Why do they get to tell me based on their culture? Our definition is all inclusive, why would I want a definition that says we are broken if gender and sex are not the same? YIKES. It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

No LoL. YOU. Why do you get to tell them? It is either an opinion or a fact. You dont get to have it both ways.

It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

A word being negative has nothing to do with one being a hypocritical person. Being a hypocritical person means you have a apparent view, but contradict it. And if one contradicts themselves, why should we trust them? If people tell you that they will live with you in peace, and contradict that notion by slaughtering your friends and allies, is that not a hypocritical person?

Dont tell me your culture is "Better" at gender than any others, because that is an opinion, and if that's all you want to espouse, that's fine since this is a internet fourm. But when people tell you contrary, dont act surprised.

I get to tell them they are not a lab rat and nothing is wrong with them because that is the truth and it is far past time someone did. A word being negative has EVERYTHING to do with it. If you call someone scum all their life, they are going to call themselves scum. Someone at some point has to stand up and correct it, otherwise they would still be calling us "injuns" and we would allow them to do so out of ignorance.

No one is telling " my culture is better" I am telling you my culture did not persecute two spirits as western society does. There is a difference. " western society" persecutes two spirits, not only did they persecute them, they hunted tortured and killed them and tried to outlaw them and they were forced into hiding. That isn't telling you " My culture is better" it is telling you that western culture has issues that need to be improved, and not all cultures treated people in such ways.

Two spirits need to know that this is not how it has to be. It doesn't 'have" to be like this for them, not all societies have the same issues. It is not them being born two spirit that is the problem, it is the society that is the problem. The society is what needs to be " fixed", not them.

 

[Rosiv]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

Similarly, just because "two spirit" is something that applies to some, does not mean it should be applied to all trans people.

How is insisting that trans people must identify as two spirit any better than insisting they identify as their biological sex or whatever people say?

If you bothered to look through my post history, you would see:

With respect, none of that makes you transgender.

No, but my brain scans would, even if I personally never see myself that way. "Two spirit" includes anyone who has both male and female qualities. It includes all LGBT. It is just a definition, there is no negative associated with " two spirit" as there is with " trans" however. " two spirit" comes from the idea that one is both a boy and a girl in some way, there are different degrees and many ways to be so.

The key issue is why do you get to tell other people what they are based on your culture's definition? Just because you see being male/female as not a negative doesn't mean that others find it a boon. It is hypocritical of you to tell other people what to identify as, given you are a native american, and historically those people were often attempted to be forced into roles they saw not fit?

EXACTLY! Why do they get to tell me based on their culture? Our definition is all inclusive, why would I want a definition that says we are broken if gender and sex are not the same? YIKES. It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

No LoL. YOU. Why do you get to tell them? It is either an opinion or a fact. You dont get to have it both ways.

It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

A word being negative has nothing to do with one being a hypocritical person. Being a hypocritical person means you have a apparent view, but contradict it. And if one contradicts themselves, why should we trust them? If people tell you that they will live with you in peace, and contradict that notion by slaughtering your friends and allies, is that not a hypocritical person?

Dont tell me your culture is "Better" at gender than any others, because that is an opinion, and if that's all you want to espouse, that's fine since this is a internet fourm. But when people tell you contrary, dont act surprised.

I get to tell them they are not a lab rat and nothing is wrong with them because that is the truth and it is far past time someone did. A word being negative has EVERYTHING to do with it. If you call someone scum all their life, they are going to call themselves scum. Someone at some point has to stand up and correct it, otherwise they would still be calling us "injuns" and we would allow them to do so out of ignorance.

No one is telling " my culture is better" I am telling you my culture did not persecute two spirits as western society does. There is a difference. " western society" persecutes two spirits, not only did they persecute them, they hunted tortured and killed them and tried to outlaw them and they were forced into hiding. That isn't telling you " My culture is better" it is telling you that western culture has issues that need to be improved, and not all cultures treated people in such ways.

Two spirits need to know that this is not how it has to be. It doesn't 'have" to be like this for them, not all societies have the same issues. It is not them being born two spirit that is the problem, it is the society that is the problem. The society is what needs to be " fixed" not them.

No, you dont get it.

A word being negative has EVERYTHING to do with it

It doesnt. A hypocrite is someone who hold contradictory viewpoints. So dont try and tell other people what they are, when you want to be refered to in a certain way yourself. Thats my point, and the only point.

Treating them as "lab rats" is a red hearing you made, and not to mention sensationism to draw away from your stance which takes away people's ability to identify as male OR female, and not both. People can live their lives as THEY want to. Your facts dont support that, and you tried to use vague terminology to hide it. Anything else is just your opinion, which we can be combative as we want with, since this is after-all, an internet fourm.

Also for future reference, is their a preferred term for all the people of "turtle island" pre America that you would prefer? Or am i stuck with my pants down in my misstep?

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

Similarly, just because "two spirit" is something that applies to some, does not mean it should be applied to all trans people.

How is insisting that trans people must identify as two spirit any better than insisting they identify as their biological sex or whatever people say?

If you bothered to look through my post history, you would see:

With respect, none of that makes you transgender.

No, but my brain scans would, even if I personally never see myself that way. "Two spirit" includes anyone who has both male and female qualities. It includes all LGBT. It is just a definition, there is no negative associated with " two spirit" as there is with " trans" however. " two spirit" comes from the idea that one is both a boy and a girl in some way, there are different degrees and many ways to be so.

The key issue is why do you get to tell other people what they are based on your culture's definition? Just because you see being male/female as not a negative doesn't mean that others find it a boon. It is hypocritical of you to tell other people what to identify as, given you are a native american, and historically those people were often attempted to be forced into roles they saw not fit?

EXACTLY! Why do they get to tell me based on their culture? Our definition is all inclusive, why would I want a definition that says we are broken if gender and sex are not the same? YIKES. It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

No LoL. YOU. Why do you get to tell them? It is either an opinion or a fact. You dont get to have it both ways.

It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

A word being negative has nothing to do with one being a hypocritical person. Being a hypocritical person means you have a apparent view, but contradict it. And if one contradicts themselves, why should we trust them? If people tell you that they will live with you in peace, and contradict that notion by slaughtering your friends and allies, is that not a hypocritical person?

Dont tell me your culture is "Better" at gender than any others, because that is an opinion, and if that's all you want to espouse, that's fine since this is a internet fourm. But when people tell you contrary, dont act surprised.

I get to tell them they are not a lab rat and nothing is wrong with them because that is the truth and it is far past time someone did. A word being negative has EVERYTHING to do with it. If you call someone scum all their life, they are going to call themselves scum. Someone at some point has to stand up and correct it, otherwise they would still be calling us "injuns" and we would allow them to do so out of ignorance.

No one is telling " my culture is better" I am telling you my culture did not persecute two spirits as western society does. There is a difference. " western society" persecutes two spirits, not only did they persecute them, they hunted tortured and killed them and tried to outlaw them and they were forced into hiding. That isn't telling you " My culture is better" it is telling you that western culture has issues that need to be improved, and not all cultures treated people in such ways.

Two spirits need to know that this is not how it has to be. It doesn't 'have" to be like this for them, not all societies have the same issues. It is not them being born two spirit that is the problem, it is the society that is the problem. The society is what needs to be " fixed" not them.

No, you dont get it.

A word being negative has EVERYTHING to do with it

It doesnt. A hypocrite is someone who hold contradictory viewpoints. So dont try and tell other people what they are, when you want to be refered to in a certain way yourself. Thats my point, and the only point.

Treating them as "lab rats" is a red hearing you made, and not to mention sensationism to draw away from your stance which takes away people's ability to identify as male OR female, and not both. People can live their lives as THEY want to. Your facts dont support that, and you tried to use vague terminology to hide it. Anything else is just your opinion, which we can be combative as we want with, since this is after-all, an internet fourm.

Also for future reference, is their a preferred term for all the people of "turtle island" pre America that you would prefer? Or am i stuck with my pants down in my misstep?

No, you don't get it. If a word has a negative meaning, it is up to those who understand that meaning to let those who do not know so they "get the joke" otherwise people will continue to call themselves slurs out of ignorance, believing that is who/ what they are. Just as you tell a child they are " not a retard" simply because someone decided to tell them they were, that doesn't make one a hypocrite, it is just trying to correct a wrong.

Western society treating two spirits like there is something wrong with them IS the problem. There is nothing wrong with them and telling them that isn't hypocritical. one can be male, female or both, the problem is in western society you do not get to be "both" because that means there is something wrong with you. You get to be both in other culture, you are not given that choice in western society however.

There is no blanket term for the many different tribes, since they were so vastly different, it is like trying to lump all the religions and cultures of Europe, Asia, and Africa as " one group". The best advice is to not think one thing applies to all. Depending on which tribe, they generally prefer to be called by their actual tribe name, or if that is unknown sometimes "Native Americans", "First nations" or "First peoples" is less offensive. The most offensive isn't calling someone native american, it is assuming that different tribes were the same people. It is just like saying Britons were generally cannibals because a rare African tribe was, and sounds just as ridiculous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Nations
http://www.firstpeople.us/

 

[DarkRawen]

snip

Now, because I don't want to start any unnecessary discussions, I just want to ask you about something that actually managed to be off-putting to me (if it's true); are you saying that people who are transgendered/LGBT are "two spirited" ? Or did I just misunderstand that due to the massive amount of texts from both you and those who you argue with? Because if you do, I'd just like to say that I find the idea of that I'm not a "real" man, even if it's currently just in my mind, more off-putting than I find someone pointing out the fact that I am still very much physically female. That's just my input on it, if it is as I assume above.

OT: I'm Trans-man and all of that, and I wouldn't dream of going into the men's locker room before I had the tools for it. Now, I'm not saying that other transgendered/transexual individuals shouldn't go into their preferred locker room without having gone through such procedures, but I don't know a lot of people who would, because it's normally going to end with fuss. People don't tend to assume that someone is transgendered, and they can't really be blamed for that either, considering that there are fairly few of us. Should it change? Yes, of course, private locker rooms would be best. Is it transphobic to be unaware of someone's gender identity? I don't think so, it can be really hard to tell. :/

 

[Rosiv]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

Similarly, just because "two spirit" is something that applies to some, does not mean it should be applied to all trans people.

How is insisting that trans people must identify as two spirit any better than insisting they identify as their biological sex or whatever people say?

If you bothered to look through my post history, you would see:

With respect, none of that makes you transgender.

No, but my brain scans would, even if I personally never see myself that way. "Two spirit" includes anyone who has both male and female qualities. It includes all LGBT. It is just a definition, there is no negative associated with " two spirit" as there is with " trans" however. " two spirit" comes from the idea that one is both a boy and a girl in some way, there are different degrees and many ways to be so.

The key issue is why do you get to tell other people what they are based on your culture's definition? Just because you see being male/female as not a negative doesn't mean that others find it a boon. It is hypocritical of you to tell other people what to identify as, given you are a native american, and historically those people were often attempted to be forced into roles they saw not fit?

EXACTLY! Why do they get to tell me based on their culture? Our definition is all inclusive, why would I want a definition that says we are broken if gender and sex are not the same? YIKES. It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

No LoL. YOU. Why do you get to tell them? It is either an opinion or a fact. You dont get to have it both ways.

It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

A word being negative has nothing to do with one being a hypocritical person. Being a hypocritical person means you have a apparent view, but contradict it. And if one contradicts themselves, why should we trust them? If people tell you that they will live with you in peace, and contradict that notion by slaughtering your friends and allies, is that not a hypocritical person?

Dont tell me your culture is "Better" at gender than any others, because that is an opinion, and if that's all you want to espouse, that's fine since this is a internet fourm. But when people tell you contrary, dont act surprised.

I get to tell them they are not a lab rat and nothing is wrong with them because that is the truth and it is far past time someone did. A word being negative has EVERYTHING to do with it. If you call someone scum all their life, they are going to call themselves scum. Someone at some point has to stand up and correct it, otherwise they would still be calling us "injuns" and we would allow them to do so out of ignorance.

No one is telling " my culture is better" I am telling you my culture did not persecute two spirits as western society does. There is a difference. " western society" persecutes two spirits, not only did they persecute them, they hunted tortured and killed them and tried to outlaw them and they were forced into hiding. That isn't telling you " My culture is better" it is telling you that western culture has issues that need to be improved, and not all cultures treated people in such ways.

Two spirits need to know that this is not how it has to be. It doesn't 'have" to be like this for them, not all societies have the same issues. It is not them being born two spirit that is the problem, it is the society that is the problem. The society is what needs to be " fixed" not them.

No, you dont get it.

A word being negative has EVERYTHING to do with it

It doesnt. A hypocrite is someone who hold contradictory viewpoints. So dont try and tell other people what they are, when you want to be refered to in a certain way yourself. Thats my point, and the only point.

Treating them as "lab rats" is a red hearing you made, and not to mention sensationism to draw away from your stance which takes away people's ability to identify as male OR female, and not both. People can live their lives as THEY want to. Your facts dont support that, and you tried to use vague terminology to hide it. Anything else is just your opinion, which we can be combative as we want with, since this is after-all, an internet fourm.

Also for future reference, is their a preferred term for all the people of "turtle island" pre America that you would prefer? Or am i stuck with my pants down in my misstep?

No, you don't get it. If a word has a negative meaning, it is up to those who understand that meaning to let those who do not know so they "get the joke" otherwise people will continue to call themselves slurs out of ignorance, believing that is who/ what they are. Just as you tell a child they are " not a retard" simply because someone decided to tell them they were, that doesn't make one a hypocrite, it is just trying to correct a wrong.

Western society treating two spirits like there is something wrong with them IS the problem. There is nothing wrong with them and telling them that isn't hypocritical. one can be male, female or both, the problem is in western society you do not get to be "both" because that means there is something wrong with you. You get to be both in other culture, you are not given that choice in western society however.

There is no blanket term for the many different tribes, since they were so vastly different, it is like trying to lump all the religions and cultures of Europe, Asia, and Africa as " one group". The best advice is to not think one thing applies to all. Depending on which tribe, they generally prefer to be called by their actual tribe name, or if that is unknown sometimes "Native Americans", "First nations" or "First peoples" is less offensive. The most offensive isn't calling someone native american, it is assuming that different tribes were the same people. It is just like saying Britons were generally cannibals because a rare African tribe was, and sounds just as ridiculous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Nations
http://www.firstpeople.us/

LoL we can do this all day, and i can assure you i have a bunch of time.

I argued that a hypocrite is one who states thing contradictory to what they do, you fit the bill with that well established definition in your actions of telling other people who want to identify as male or female, that they should be male/female instead.

A wrong or right as you refer it is:

it is just trying to correct a wrong.

is again, just your opinion, and a red hearing to your hypocritical actions. Any facts on gender with trans people are not well established. So this claim of them being wrong is absurd, and also as stated before then just your opinion.

So yes, when you tell people what to identify as, when you dont like people to tell you what you identify as, that makes you a hypocrite, there is no wiggle room really for that, and there is nothing wrong with being a hypocrite, but dont expect anyone to take you seriously when you act as one.

one can be male, female or both, the problem is in western society you do not get to be "both" because that means there is something wrong with you. You get to be both in other culture, you are not given that choice in western society however.

Uninformed on genderqueer people? They exist, and identify as neither male or female, or both male and female, and that is the western approach to what you state. Nevertheless you still dont get to tell people to identify as two spirited or genderqueer and not be a hypocrite in doing so, given your previous and current stances on the issues of identity. They get to choose, not you.


As an aside and to reference to your last paragraph, since i know you dont like quote fileld replies, i wont include it, I know they are not "one group". It just helps for referencing, since historicaly they were treated as such and listing all the hundreds of tribes names that were forced to identify in ways they did not feel fit would take a long time for me, and be wordy.

As another aside,I also feel your Briton/African example is a bit off. Briton was a western power, African tribes were African tribes. The way they lived their lives, their cultures were vastly different, and people tend to "lump" things together that are similar. I feel a more appropriate comparison would be the "cannibal African tribe" to the "not cannibal African tribe" since both still involve the lack of infrastructure and western tech that really characterizes Briton from African tribes. But yea i can see that point, but only that one.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

Similarly, just because "two spirit" is something that applies to some, does not mean it should be applied to all trans people.

How is insisting that trans people must identify as two spirit any better than insisting they identify as their biological sex or whatever people say?

If you bothered to look through my post history, you would see:

With respect, none of that makes you transgender.

No, but my brain scans would, even if I personally never see myself that way. "Two spirit" includes anyone who has both male and female qualities. It includes all LGBT. It is just a definition, there is no negative associated with " two spirit" as there is with " trans" however. " two spirit" comes from the idea that one is both a boy and a girl in some way, there are different degrees and many ways to be so.

The key issue is why do you get to tell other people what they are based on your culture's definition? Just because you see being male/female as not a negative doesn't mean that others find it a boon. It is hypocritical of you to tell other people what to identify as, given you are a native american, and historically those people were often attempted to be forced into roles they saw not fit?

EXACTLY! Why do they get to tell me based on their culture? Our definition is all inclusive, why would I want a definition that says we are broken if gender and sex are not the same? YIKES. It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

No LoL. YOU. Why do you get to tell them? It is either an opinion or a fact. You dont get to have it both ways.

It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

A word being negative has nothing to do with one being a hypocritical person. Being a hypocritical person means you have a apparent view, but contradict it. And if one contradicts themselves, why should we trust them? If people tell you that they will live with you in peace, and contradict that notion by slaughtering your friends and allies, is that not a hypocritical person?

Dont tell me your culture is "Better" at gender than any others, because that is an opinion, and if that's all you want to espouse, that's fine since this is a internet fourm. But when people tell you contrary, dont act surprised.

I get to tell them they are not a lab rat and nothing is wrong with them because that is the truth and it is far past time someone did. A word being negative has EVERYTHING to do with it. If you call someone scum all their life, they are going to call themselves scum. Someone at some point has to stand up and correct it, otherwise they would still be calling us "injuns" and we would allow them to do so out of ignorance.

No one is telling " my culture is better" I am telling you my culture did not persecute two spirits as western society does. There is a difference. " western society" persecutes two spirits, not only did they persecute them, they hunted tortured and killed them and tried to outlaw them and they were forced into hiding. That isn't telling you " My culture is better" it is telling you that western culture has issues that need to be improved, and not all cultures treated people in such ways.

Two spirits need to know that this is not how it has to be. It doesn't 'have" to be like this for them, not all societies have the same issues. It is not them being born two spirit that is the problem, it is the society that is the problem. The society is what needs to be " fixed" not them.

No, you dont get it.

A word being negative has EVERYTHING to do with it

It doesnt. A hypocrite is someone who hold contradictory viewpoints. So dont try and tell other people what they are, when you want to be refered to in a certain way yourself. Thats my point, and the only point.

Treating them as "lab rats" is a red hearing you made, and not to mention sensationism to draw away from your stance which takes away people's ability to identify as male OR female, and not both. People can live their lives as THEY want to. Your facts dont support that, and you tried to use vague terminology to hide it. Anything else is just your opinion, which we can be combative as we want with, since this is after-all, an internet fourm.

Also for future reference, is their a preferred term for all the people of "turtle island" pre America that you would prefer? Or am i stuck with my pants down in my misstep?

No, you don't get it. If a word has a negative meaning, it is up to those who understand that meaning to let those who do not know so they "get the joke" otherwise people will continue to call themselves slurs out of ignorance, believing that is who/ what they are. Just as you tell a child they are " not a retard" simply because someone decided to tell them they were, that doesn't make one a hypocrite, it is just trying to correct a wrong.

Western society treating two spirits like there is something wrong with them IS the problem. There is nothing wrong with them and telling them that isn't hypocritical. one can be male, female or both, the problem is in western society you do not get to be "both" because that means there is something wrong with you. You get to be both in other culture, you are not given that choice in western society however.

There is no blanket term for the many different tribes, since they were so vastly different, it is like trying to lump all the religions and cultures of Europe, Asia, and Africa as " one group". The best advice is to not think one thing applies to all. Depending on which tribe, they generally prefer to be called by their actual tribe name, or if that is unknown sometimes "Native Americans", "First nations" or "First peoples" is less offensive. The most offensive isn't calling someone native american, it is assuming that different tribes were the same people. It is just like saying Britons were generally cannibals because a rare African tribe was, and sounds just as ridiculous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Nations
http://www.firstpeople.us/

LoL we can do this all day, and i can assure you i have a bunch of time.

I argued that a hypocrite is one who states thing contradictory to what they do, you fit the bill with that well established definition in your actions of telling other people who want to identify as male or female, that they should be male/female instead.

A wrong or right as you refer it is:

it is just trying to correct a wrong.

is again, just your opinion, and a red hearing to your hypocritical actions. Any facts on gender with trans people are not well established. So this claim of them being wrong is absurd, and also as stated before then just your opinion.

So yes, when you tell people what to identify as, when you dont like people to tell you what you identify as, that makes you a hypocrite, there is no wiggle room really for that, and there is nothing wrong with being a hypocrite, but dont expect anyone to take you seriously when you act as one.

one can be male, female or both, the problem is in western society you do not get to be "both" because that means there is something wrong with you. You get to be both in other culture, you are not given that choice in western society however.

Uninformed on genderqueer people? They exist, and identify as neither male or female, or both male and female, and that is the western approach to what you state. Nevertheless you still dont get to tell people to identify as two spirited or genderqueer and not be a hypocrite in doing so, given your previous and current stances on the issues of identity. They get to choose, not you.


As an aside and to reference to your last paragraph, since i know you dont like quote fileld replies, i wont include it, I know they are not "one group". It just helps for referencing, since historicaly they were treated as such and listing all the hundreds of tribes names that were forced to identify in ways they did not feel fit would take a long time for me, and be wordy.

As another aside,I also feel your Briton/African example is a bit off. Briton was a western power, African tribes were African tribes. The way they lived their lives, their cultures were vastly different, and people tend to "lump" things together that are similar. I feel a more appropriate comparison would be the "cannibal African tribe" to the "not cannibal African tribe" since both still involve the lack of infrastructure and western tech that really characterizes Briton from African tribes. But yea i can see that point, but only that one.

What do you mean the facts on trans people are not well established? They have been well established for a very long time, it is just western society is behind behind in recognizing that and keeps trying to fix what isn't broken to begin with. You are incorrect in the assessment that western society allows them to be both. If they were given options to be both society would not be pressuring them to choose. It has not yet come that far. They are not given facilities for both, there are not many options for them in sex segregated areas for both society in general has not yet accepted them as both.

Historically Native Americans were only treated as one group by those that were exterminating them, not by the tribes themselves.
No, my briton/ african example is exactly spot on, because that is exactly what western society has been doing to the many tribes for a very long time now, and have yet to cease doing this. It is 1047 miles from Africa to England. It is 2461 miles from New York to California. Think about the differences between the cultures that exist from Africa to England, now more than double that and you have the cultures of " Turtle Island". The problem is Europeans didn't realize this, still often do not realize this. Just as Britons lived in apartments and Africans lived in huts.. Hopi lived in Apartments and the Blackfoot lived in tipis. Yes, no matter how much Europeans wanted to assume " all brown people are the same" , the people here were just as different as Africans to Britons, it was their own racism that failed to allow them to see this. The tribes were vastly different, seeing them as " the same" was out of ignorance, not because they actually were.

Spoiler: The English were not the only ones living in apartments.

England:

Hopi:

That is a modern apartment in England, and the Hopi apartments have been that way for thousands of years. "Tech" is not the only measure of society, or their differences. Hopi refusing to use anything they see that harms the earth makes them more environmentally conscience, not that they are "barbarians" or something. It is kind of like Japanese thinking westerners were unsophisticated hairy barbarians, actually many of them still do.. that doesn't make it true.

 

[Rosiv]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

Similarly, just because "two spirit" is something that applies to some, does not mean it should be applied to all trans people.

How is insisting that trans people must identify as two spirit any better than insisting they identify as their biological sex or whatever people say?

If you bothered to look through my post history, you would see:

With respect, none of that makes you transgender.

No, but my brain scans would, even if I personally never see myself that way. "Two spirit" includes anyone who has both male and female qualities. It includes all LGBT. It is just a definition, there is no negative associated with " two spirit" as there is with " trans" however. " two spirit" comes from the idea that one is both a boy and a girl in some way, there are different degrees and many ways to be so.

The key issue is why do you get to tell other people what they are based on your culture's definition? Just because you see being male/female as not a negative doesn't mean that others find it a boon. It is hypocritical of you to tell other people what to identify as, given you are a native american, and historically those people were often attempted to be forced into roles they saw not fit?

EXACTLY! Why do they get to tell me based on their culture? Our definition is all inclusive, why would I want a definition that says we are broken if gender and sex are not the same? YIKES. It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

No LoL. YOU. Why do you get to tell them? It is either an opinion or a fact. You dont get to have it both ways.

It is jot hypocritical to use a word with a definition that is not negative, nor does it have the negative history associated with it as well, since two spirits are treated like celebrities in my culture not like lab rats.

A word being negative has nothing to do with one being a hypocritical person. Being a hypocritical person means you have a apparent view, but contradict it. And if one contradicts themselves, why should we trust them? If people tell you that they will live with you in peace, and contradict that notion by slaughtering your friends and allies, is that not a hypocritical person?

Dont tell me your culture is "Better" at gender than any others, because that is an opinion, and if that's all you want to espouse, that's fine since this is a internet fourm. But when people tell you contrary, dont act surprised.

I get to tell them they are not a lab rat and nothing is wrong with them because that is the truth and it is far past time someone did. A word being negative has EVERYTHING to do with it. If you call someone scum all their life, they are going to call themselves scum. Someone at some point has to stand up and correct it, otherwise they would still be calling us "injuns" and we would allow them to do so out of ignorance.

No one is telling " my culture is better" I am telling you my culture did not persecute two spirits as western society does. There is a difference. " western society" persecutes two spirits, not only did they persecute them, they hunted tortured and killed them and tried to outlaw them and they were forced into hiding. That isn't telling you " My culture is better" it is telling you that western culture has issues that need to be improved, and not all cultures treated people in such ways.

Two spirits need to know that this is not how it has to be. It doesn't 'have" to be like this for them, not all societies have the same issues. It is not them being born two spirit that is the problem, it is the society that is the problem. The society is what needs to be " fixed" not them.

No, you dont get it.

A word being negative has EVERYTHING to do with it

It doesnt. A hypocrite is someone who hold contradictory viewpoints. So dont try and tell other people what they are, when you want to be refered to in a certain way yourself. Thats my point, and the only point.

Treating them as "lab rats" is a red hearing you made, and not to mention sensationism to draw away from your stance which takes away people's ability to identify as male OR female, and not both. People can live their lives as THEY want to. Your facts dont support that, and you tried to use vague terminology to hide it. Anything else is just your opinion, which we can be combative as we want with, since this is after-all, an internet fourm.

Also for future reference, is their a preferred term for all the people of "turtle island" pre America that you would prefer? Or am i stuck with my pants down in my misstep?

No, you don't get it. If a word has a negative meaning, it is up to those who understand that meaning to let those who do not know so they "get the joke" otherwise people will continue to call themselves slurs out of ignorance, believing that is who/ what they are. Just as you tell a child they are " not a retard" simply because someone decided to tell them they were, that doesn't make one a hypocrite, it is just trying to correct a wrong.

Western society treating two spirits like there is something wrong with them IS the problem. There is nothing wrong with them and telling them that isn't hypocritical. one can be male, female or both, the problem is in western society you do not get to be "both" because that means there is something wrong with you. You get to be both in other culture, you are not given that choice in western society however.

There is no blanket term for the many different tribes, since they were so vastly different, it is like trying to lump all the religions and cultures of Europe, Asia, and Africa as " one group". The best advice is to not think one thing applies to all. Depending on which tribe, they generally prefer to be called by their actual tribe name, or if that is unknown sometimes "Native Americans", "First nations" or "First peoples" is less offensive. The most offensive isn't calling someone native american, it is assuming that different tribes were the same people. It is just like saying Britons were generally cannibals because a rare African tribe was, and sounds just as ridiculous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Nations
http://www.firstpeople.us/

LoL we can do this all day, and i can assure you i have a bunch of time.

I argued that a hypocrite is one who states thing contradictory to what they do, you fit the bill with that well established definition in your actions of telling other people who want to identify as male or female, that they should be male/female instead.

A wrong or right as you refer it is:

it is just trying to correct a wrong.

is again, just your opinion, and a red hearing to your hypocritical actions. Any facts on gender with trans people are not well established. So this claim of them being wrong is absurd, and also as stated before then just your opinion.

So yes, when you tell people what to identify as, when you dont like people to tell you what you identify as, that makes you a hypocrite, there is no wiggle room really for that, and there is nothing wrong with being a hypocrite, but dont expect anyone to take you seriously when you act as one.

one can be male, female or both, the problem is in western society you do not get to be "both" because that means there is something wrong with you. You get to be both in other culture, you are not given that choice in western society however.

Uninformed on genderqueer people? They exist, and identify as neither male or female, or both male and female, and that is the western approach to what you state. Nevertheless you still dont get to tell people to identify as two spirited or genderqueer and not be a hypocrite in doing so, given your previous and current stances on the issues of identity. They get to choose, not you.


As an aside and to reference to your last paragraph, since i know you dont like quote fileld replies, i wont include it, I know they are not "one group". It just helps for referencing, since historicaly they were treated as such and listing all the hundreds of tribes names that were forced to identify in ways they did not feel fit would take a long time for me, and be wordy.

As another aside,I also feel your Briton/African example is a bit off. Briton was a western power, African tribes were African tribes. The way they lived their lives, their cultures were vastly different, and people tend to "lump" things together that are similar. I feel a more appropriate comparison would be the "cannibal African tribe" to the "not cannibal African tribe" since both still involve the lack of infrastructure and western tech that really characterizes Briton from African tribes. But yea i can see that point, but only that one.

What do you mean the facts on trans people are not well established? They have been well established for a very long time, it is just western society is behind behind in recognizing that and keeps trying to fix what isn't broken to begin with. You are incorrect in the assessment that western society allows them to be both. If they were given options to be both society would not be pressuring them to choose. It has not yet come that far. They are not given facilities for both, there are not many options for them in sex segregated areas for both society in general has not yet accepted them as both.

Historically Native Americans were only treated as one group by those that were exterminating them, not by the tribes themselves.
No, my briton/ african example is exactly spot on, because that is exactly what western society has been doing to the many tribes for a very long time now, and have yet to cease doing this. It is 1047 miles from Africa to England. It is 2461 miles from New York to California. Think about the differences between the cultures that exist from Africa to England, now more than double that and you have the cultures of " Turtle Island". The problem is Europeans didn't realize this, still often do not realize this. Just as Britons lived in apartments and Africans lived in huts.. Hopi lived in Apartments and the Blackfoot lived in tipis. Yes, no matter how much Europeans wanted to assume " all brown people are the same" , the people here were just as different as Africans to Britons, it was their own racism that failed to allow them to see this. The tribes were vastly different, seeing them as " the same" was out of ignorance, not because they actually were.
England:

Hopi:

That is a modern apartment in England, and the Hopi apartments have been that way for thousands of years.

Is creationism a fact then? Or Jesus? Ones culture or religion is not fact. Show the well placed evidence if it exists, which it doesn't. You were the one who corrected me on this point Lil Devils a ways ago, so again this leads to you another hypocrisy, or maybe just a poor memory.

If they were given options to be both society would not be pressuring them to choose. It has not yet come that far. They are not given facilities for both, there are not many options for them in sex segregated areas for both society in general has not yet accepted them as both.

This is wrong, factually. They are given options, you just didnt know about them, and assumed other wize. Plently of people choose to be gender-queer and plenty choose to be women or men. The key is that its their choice.

For the aside: Is skin tone different between the tribes? I always assumed the reason they were lumped together was their same brownish skin tone. I mean your white so i know that one does not have to be white to be a first nation person, but still, skin color attributes to how one could of been marginalized, that was more of my point. Sorry for being vague.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

snip

Is creationism a fact then? Or Jesus? Ones culture or religion is not fact. Show the well placed evidence if it exists, which it doesn't. You were the one who corrected me on this point Lil Devils a ways ago, so again this leads to you another hypocrisy, or maybe just a poor memory.

If they were given options to be both society would not be pressuring them to choose. It has not yet come that far. They are not given facilities for both, there are not many options for them in sex segregated areas for both society in general has not yet accepted them as both.

This is wrong, factually. They are given options, you just didnt know about them, and assumed other wize. Plently of people choose to be gender-queer and plenty choose to be women or men. The key is that its their choice.

For the aside: Is skin tone different between the tribes? I always assumed the reason they were lumped together was their same brownish skin tone. I mean your white so i know that one does not have to be white to be a first nation person, but still, skin color attributes to how one could of been marginalized, that was more of my point. Sorry for being vague.

Comparing two spirits to creationism is comparing apples to orangutans. It has been known for thousands of years that gender does not have to match sex, and has now been confirmed in brain scans as well. This isn't some ' new discovery" we know nothing about, humanity has been living as and with this for a very long time now, and much has already been established by the many cultures of the world as well as science. Now you are just being silly for the sake of being silly.

They are NOT given options in the majority of western society, and that is an issue. Some have started to give them options, but it is far from being accepted everywhere as of yet. facilities are not provided everywhere yet, "Queer" is ALSO a derogatory term and have been used to abuse Two spirits as well, so it can also be considered a very negative and hurtful word, of course people in western society would not choose to be called "gender queer" because of the stigmas that go along with it."Queer" is still trying to say something is wrong with them. UGH, why must all words in the west used to describe two spirits be negative? It would be nice if for once they had a word without the negative " you are broken and not right" attached to it.

Yes, skin tone is different among the tribes, and the tribes actually came to the Americas at different times over thousands of years, so genetically they are frequently very different.

 

[Sarge034]

No, because forcing trans women into men's areas is known not to be safe.

First off, I'm liking how you're cherry picking parts of my quotes. Stay classy.

That's my point thought. If cis women don't feel comfortable with a MALE body (regardless of mental gender) in their changing room then they don't feel safe. If cis men don't feel comfortable with a male body that has a FEMALE mind in their changing room then they don't feel safe. If trans people feel like they're not welcome anywhere then they don't feel safe. I'm saying these are things we really need to try to discuss as a society and come to an understanding but everyone wants to draw battle lines!

Bend over backwards, by treating trans women the way you'd treat other women? Treating women like women isn't particularly hard.

The irony here is palpable. You do realize I'm more about equality than you are, right? I don't treat "women like women" or men like men, I treat people like people until they give me a reason not to. In your quest to shame me about what you perceive to be my unequal standards you went straight to using sexism and gender rolls... LOL, KEK, and other assorted humored laughs.

Anyway, the fact that you're a woman or a man in mind doesn't change the genitalia on your body. In a place where you get naked, but more importantly see others naked, that matters. But like I was trying to say, as of now there is no "right" answer. We can let them in the changing room they identify with, the one they physically are, or not let then in any. All options suck, why not try to think of a better one? I think the best long term solution is to go the unisex route and have individual stalls for changing and require clothing on at all times otherwise.