Poll: A sensitive question about transgender and locker rooms

[Silvanus]

"Queer" is ALSO a derogatory term and have been used to abuse Two spirits as well, so it can also be considered a very negative and hurtful word, of course people in western society would not choose to be called "gender queer" because of the stigmas that go along with it."Queer" is still trying to say something is wrong with them. UGH, why must all words in the west used to describe two spirits be negative? It would be nice if for once they had a word without the negative " you are broken and not right" attached to it.

You're partially right, but the word "queer" has also been partially re-appropriated. Some people use it as a self-descriptor.

 

[Rosiv]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

snip

Is creationism a fact then? Or Jesus? Ones culture or religion is not fact. Show the well placed evidence if it exists, which it doesn't. You were the one who corrected me on this point Lil Devils a ways ago, so again this leads to you another hypocrisy, or maybe just a poor memory.

If they were given options to be both society would not be pressuring them to choose. It has not yet come that far. They are not given facilities for both, there are not many options for them in sex segregated areas for both society in general has not yet accepted them as both.

This is wrong, factually. They are given options, you just didnt know about them, and assumed other wize. Plently of people choose to be gender-queer and plenty choose to be women or men. The key is that its their choice.

For the aside: Is skin tone different between the tribes? I always assumed the reason they were lumped together was their same brownish skin tone. I mean your white so i know that one does not have to be white to be a first nation person, but still, skin color attributes to how one could of been marginalized, that was more of my point. Sorry for being vague.

Comparing two spirits to creationism is comparing apples to orangutans. It has been known for thousands of years that gender does not have to match sex, and has now been confirmed in brain scans as well. This isn't some ' new discovery" we know nothing about, humanity has been living as and with this for a very long time now, and much has already been established by the many cultures of the world as well as science. Now you are just being silly for the sake of being silly.

They are NOT given options in the majority of western society, and that is an issue. Some have started to give them options, but it is far from being accepted everywhere as of yet. facilities are not provided everywhere yet, "Queer" is ALSO a derogatory term and have been used to abuse Two spirits as well, so it can also be considered a very negative and hurtful word, of course people in western society would not choose to be called "gender queer" because of the stigmas that go along with it."Queer" is still trying to say something is wrong with them. UGH, why must all words in the west used to describe two spirits be negative? It would be nice if for once they had a word without the negative " you are broken and not right" attached to it.

Yes, skin tone is different among the tribes, and the tribes actually came to the Americas at different times over thousands of years, so genetically they are frequently very different.

I can compare whatever i want, that is why its called a comparison. The only point that needs to be the same is the point i am comparing. The comparison as i stated before is that you have a set of beliefs which are not based on fact. Two spirited people are not based on science, they are cultural, as is every facet of gender as far as sociology is concerned. To argue gender is biological is something that i personally wish was true, but know the brain scan studies do not fully support, since they only show differences in brain structure, not the origins of such. That is the nature of nature vs nurture issues though.

And yea "Queer" being a derogatory term is more contextual than anything. Sorry if that offends you, but the western term and movement people identify with is "genderqueer". Negative words dont have to always stay negative you know? Case and point the N-word and african americans?

It is funny how you still dont get it. You refer to people as two spirited as if you had that right. Do you understand my point? You dont get to tell people how to live their lives. If they want to be women even though they were born men, then they get to be women. They dont have to KowTow to your "two spirited" viewpoint simply because you "think" it is better. It is like me calling all Hopi people "brown dudes" simply because they might of at one point had brown skin and i feel that it was appropriate for my "Western" culture. One culture doesn't trump another.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

"Queer" is ALSO a derogatory term and have been used to abuse Two spirits as well, so it can also be considered a very negative and hurtful word, of course people in western society would not choose to be called "gender queer" because of the stigmas that go along with it."Queer" is still trying to say something is wrong with them. UGH, why must all words in the west used to describe two spirits be negative? It would be nice if for once they had a word without the negative " you are broken and not right" attached to it.

You're partially right, but the word "queer" has also been partially re-appropriated. Some people use it as a self-descriptor.

Yes, but the issue is all of the words in the west that are used to describe them have the underlying theme that "something is not right" negative. That is the problem with starting from this angle, the way this is viewed as something being broken that needs fixed from the beginning, is weighted and biased against them from the go. How can they ever view themselves as " normal" and live a normal life when even the very words to describe them are weighted against them?

 

[Silvanus]

Yes, but the issue is all of the words in the west that are used to describe them have the underlying theme that "something is not right" negative. That is the problem with starting from this angle, the way this is viewed as something being broken that needs fixed from the beginning, is weighted and biased against them from the go. How can they ever view themselves as " normal" and live a normal life when even the very words to describe them are weighted against them?

I wouldn't say the term "trans" implies a negative. It's more directly descriptive; etymologically it means "across".

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

snip

Is creationism a fact then? Or Jesus? Ones culture or religion is not fact. Show the well placed evidence if it exists, which it doesn't. You were the one who corrected me on this point Lil Devils a ways ago, so again this leads to you another hypocrisy, or maybe just a poor memory.

If they were given options to be both society would not be pressuring them to choose. It has not yet come that far. They are not given facilities for both, there are not many options for them in sex segregated areas for both society in general has not yet accepted them as both.

This is wrong, factually. They are given options, you just didnt know about them, and assumed other wize. Plently of people choose to be gender-queer and plenty choose to be women or men. The key is that its their choice.

For the aside: Is skin tone different between the tribes? I always assumed the reason they were lumped together was their same brownish skin tone. I mean your white so i know that one does not have to be white to be a first nation person, but still, skin color attributes to how one could of been marginalized, that was more of my point. Sorry for being vague.

Comparing two spirits to creationism is comparing apples to orangutans. It has been known for thousands of years that gender does not have to match sex, and has now been confirmed in brain scans as well. This isn't some ' new discovery" we know nothing about, humanity has been living as and with this for a very long time now, and much has already been established by the many cultures of the world as well as science. Now you are just being silly for the sake of being silly.

They are NOT given options in the majority of western society, and that is an issue. Some have started to give them options, but it is far from being accepted everywhere as of yet. facilities are not provided everywhere yet, "Queer" is ALSO a derogatory term and have been used to abuse Two spirits as well, so it can also be considered a very negative and hurtful word, of course people in western society would not choose to be called "gender queer" because of the stigmas that go along with it."Queer" is still trying to say something is wrong with them. UGH, why must all words in the west used to describe two spirits be negative? It would be nice if for once they had a word without the negative " you are broken and not right" attached to it.

Yes, skin tone is different among the tribes, and the tribes actually came to the Americas at different times over thousands of years, so genetically they are frequently very different.

I can compare whatever i want, that is why its called a comparison. The only point that needs to be the same is the point i am comparing. The comparison as i stated before is that you have a set of beliefs which are not based on fact. Two spirited people are not based on science, they are cultural, as is every facet of gender as far as sociology is concerned. To argue gender is biological is something that i personally wish was true, but know the brain scan studies do not fully support, since they only show differences in brain structure, not the origins of such. That is the nature of nature vs nurture issues though.

And yea "Queer" being a derogatory term is more contextual than anything. Sorry if that offends you, but the western term and movement people identify with is "genderqueer". Negative words dont have to always stay negative you know? Case and point the N-word and african americans?

It is funny how you still dont get it. You refer to people as two spirited as if you had that right. Do you understand my point? You dont get to tell people how to live their lives. If they want to be women even though they were born men, then they get to be women. They dont have to KowTow to your "two spirited" viewpoint simply because you "think" it is better. It is like me calling all Hopi people "brown dudes" simply because they might of at one point had brown skin and i feel that it was appropriate for my "Western" culture. One culture doesn't trump another.

I have just as much right to refer to them as two spirit as you do to refer to them as homo sapiens. It is a non derogatory word with a definition that applies. It is no more wrong to refer to someone who has both masculine and feminine as two spirited as it is to refer to water as being wet. Yes, I DO have that right, and no I am not going to stop using my right simply because you think you have the right to take that right from me. You are still two spirit if you are born a woman and have cosmetic surgery to be a man, surgery does not change that.

If one culture does not " trump another" quit calling two spirits transgenders because transgenders is a negative word by definition and offensive. Here you are trying to force your culture on me while telling me to stop using my own cultures terms to describe having characteristic of both the masculine and the feminine.

 

[neverwintergirl]

Do you think it's more likely that a transgendered person (with a male body) is likely to be assaulted if they use the locker room and don't say anything? Wouldn't most of the men in the room just assume it's another guy changing and do their own thing? God knows when I change at the gym I don't want anything to do with the naked people around me.

An interesting reversal of the situation: What about the (admittedly much rarer) trans men? Would you force an 80 pound five feet trans-man looking like a girl into a mans restroom?

Tricky situation all around.

I'm sorry I admit I found this thread by googling some other stuff about this whole locker fiasco but I have to admit I found this kind of funny... yet at the same time kind of sad in the lack of understanding of what trans is and felt I had to correct it.

Trust me, trans people have all kinds of discussions amongst ourselves when to switch locker rooms / bathrooms. But this is just not understanding. A pre transition trans person, ie in the case of a trans woman someone who has not taken hormones and probably even has short hair (I always had hair down to my ass but that's an oddity) and maybe facial hair wearing men's clothes is not going to stroll into the women's locker room - "sup ladies, I'm trans, it's cool!" they're going to go into the women's room when their hair is grown out, they've been on hormones for a good bit of time, they're wearing female clothes and they may have had various surgeries. Not just on the genitals but there is facial surgery (that tries to feminize.. don't think Joan Rivers, think reconstructive surgery to make you look like your sister, real or hypothetical) as well as breast implants and other things.

Once a trans woman looks like a woman (or does her best to attempt to) is when she is going to use the women's locker room / bathroom. Not before. Often we end up getting yelled at, stared at, or harassed using the men's room numerous times before we use the women's room.

Now take all that and masculinize the steps instead of feminizing them and that's what trans men do as well.

As for using the rest room based on whether you are pre or post op, some of us trans people really are... this is a stupid way to phrase it, but rather convincing. I haven't been called he or boy or man or male or dude or bro in a decade. Not even by little kids who usually just say what's on their mind.

Do you really want someone who looks 100% female except has a penis between her legs using the men's room or vice versa for a trans man with a vagina?

I apologize if someone else has made this correction already.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Yes, but the issue is all of the words in the west that are used to describe them have the underlying theme that "something is not right" negative. That is the problem with starting from this angle, the way this is viewed as something being broken that needs fixed from the beginning, is weighted and biased against them from the go. How can they ever view themselves as " normal" and live a normal life when even the very words to describe them are weighted against them?

I wouldn't say the term "trans" implies a negative. It's more directly descriptive; etymologically it means "across".

According to the definitions in the dictionaries, it is negative. Referring it to being a " misalignment" is negative, that it is something that is not right and needs to be fixed.

"a prefix meaning ?on the other side of,? referring to the misalignment of one?s gender identity with one's biological sex assigned at birth"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trans-


When your car's wheels are misaligned you go get it aligned.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

snip

Is creationism a fact then? Or Jesus? Ones culture or religion is not fact. Show the well placed evidence if it exists, which it doesn't. You were the one who corrected me on this point Lil Devils a ways ago, so again this leads to you another hypocrisy, or maybe just a poor memory.

If they were given options to be both society would not be pressuring them to choose. It has not yet come that far. They are not given facilities for both, there are not many options for them in sex segregated areas for both society in general has not yet accepted them as both.

This is wrong, factually. They are given options, you just didnt know about them, and assumed other wize. Plently of people choose to be gender-queer and plenty choose to be women or men. The key is that its their choice.

For the aside: Is skin tone different between the tribes? I always assumed the reason they were lumped together was their same brownish skin tone. I mean your white so i know that one does not have to be white to be a first nation person, but still, skin color attributes to how one could of been marginalized, that was more of my point. Sorry for being vague.

Comparing two spirits to creationism is comparing apples to orangutans. It has been known for thousands of years that gender does not have to match sex, and has now been confirmed in brain scans as well. This isn't some ' new discovery" we know nothing about, humanity has been living as and with this for a very long time now, and much has already been established by the many cultures of the world as well as science. Now you are just being silly for the sake of being silly.

They are NOT given options in the majority of western society, and that is an issue. Some have started to give them options, but it is far from being accepted everywhere as of yet. facilities are not provided everywhere yet, "Queer" is ALSO a derogatory term and have been used to abuse Two spirits as well, so it can also be considered a very negative and hurtful word, of course people in western society would not choose to be called "gender queer" because of the stigmas that go along with it."Queer" is still trying to say something is wrong with them. UGH, why must all words in the west used to describe two spirits be negative? It would be nice if for once they had a word without the negative " you are broken and not right" attached to it.

Yes, skin tone is different among the tribes, and the tribes actually came to the Americas at different times over thousands of years, so genetically they are frequently very different.

I can compare whatever i want, that is why its called a comparison. The only point that needs to be the same is the point i am comparing. The comparison as i stated before is that you have a set of beliefs which are not based on fact. Two spirited people are not based on science, they are cultural, as is every facet of gender as far as sociology is concerned. To argue gender is biological is something that i personally wish was true, but know the brain scan studies do not fully support, since they only show differences in brain structure, not the origins of such. That is the nature of nature vs nurture issues though.

And yea "Queer" being a derogatory term is more contextual than anything. Sorry if that offends you, but the western term and movement people identify with is "genderqueer". Negative words dont have to always stay negative you know? Case and point the N-word and african americans?

It is funny how you still dont get it. You refer to people as two spirited as if you had that right. Do you understand my point? You dont get to tell people how to live their lives. If they want to be women even though they were born men, then they get to be women. They dont have to KowTow to your "two spirited" viewpoint simply because you "think" it is better. It is like me calling all Hopi people "brown dudes" simply because they might of at one point had brown skin and i feel that it was appropriate for my "Western" culture. One culture doesn't trump another.

I have just as much right to refer to them as two spirit as you do to refer to them as homo sapiens. It is a non derogatory word with a definition that applies. It is no more wrong to refer to someone who has both masculine and feminine as two spirited as it is to refer to water as being wet. Yes, I DO have that right, and no I am not going to stop using my right simply because you think you have the right to take that right from me. You are still two spirit if you are born a woman and have cosmetic surgery to be a man, surgery does not change that.

If one culture does not " trump another" quit calling two spirits transgenders because transgenders is a negative word by definition and offensive.

LoL I dont call anyone anything. I let people call themselves things. So if a two spirited person from the first nations at my campus wants to be two spirted i dont get involved. And if a person wants to be referd to as women when they are born a man i dont get involved either. You dont understand the concept yet? You dont get to tell people how to live their lives, if you yourself do not want that type of control on you, which you clearly dont.

Homosapian is a scientific term. Two spirited is a first nation term. One is scientific fact, the other is cultural. Whether it is "derogatory" is really up to the individual being referenced and not us to decide. Case and point using the word "black" to refer to dark skined people with hertiage from Africa. I have had many hits and miss using the word.

Yes, I DO have that right, and no I am not going to stop using my right simply because you think you have the right to take that right from me.

You have the right to call someone whatever they want i understand that. That doesn't make you a sensible person though. That makes you a hypocrite, which was my point that you either are willfully ignoring or due to cultural differences dont seem to "get".
Regardless of the derogatory or non derogatory nature of the word, you make your self a hypocrite when you hold contradictory standards. And when you reveal someone's hypocracy that is enough to devaule their opinion, which is what i am setting out to do. This is because i dont like people who are so obviously hypocritical, since it makes me trust them less.

So call people whatever you want. Ill just call you out on it dogmaticly because of my contempt for people like you, blatant hypocrites.

Please stop with the name calling. Me choosing to use my own cultures terms that do not have the negativity associated with it as the western terms do does not make me a hypocrite and senseless. There is no need for insults, and there is nothing constructive that comes from insulting someone. I do not wish to call those whose gender differs from their sex " misaligned", thus will refrain from using such a negative term to describe them. That is not hypocrisy or insensibility.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

If one culture does not " trump another" quit calling two spirits transgenders because transgenders is a negative word by definition and offensive.

So you have the right to call them two spirits, but others don't have the right to call them transgender?
Yeah, my answer to that, in your own words no less ...

Yes, I DO have that right, and no I am not going to stop using my right simply because you think you have the right to take that right from me.

As for transgender being an offensive term, that is your opinion, and one that is not shared by the majority of people whom that term applies to. At least in the "western world", most of the people you would refer to as two spirits, prefer to be called transgender. If they aren't taking offence to it, then how is it offensive?

Here you are trying to force your culture on me while telling me to stop using my own cultures terms to describe having characteristic of both the masculine and the famine.

That is exactly what you are doing.

How about you use your cultural terms, and we use ours?

 

[Rosiv]

Yes, but the issue is all of the words in the west that are used to describe them have the underlying theme that "something is not right" negative. That is the problem with starting from this angle, the way this is viewed as something being broken that needs fixed from the beginning, is weighted and biased against them from the go. How can they ever view themselves as " normal" and live a normal life when even the very words to describe them are weighted against them?

I wouldn't say the term "trans" implies a negative. It's more directly descriptive; etymologically it means "across".

According to the definitions in the dictionaries, it is negative. Referring it to being a " misalignment" is negative, that it is something that is not right and needs to be fixed.

"a prefix meaning ?on the other side of,? referring to the misalignment of one?s gender identity with one's biological sex assigned at birth"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trans-


When your car's wheels are misaligned you go get it aligned.

Cis and trans refer to "on the other side". This doesnt have to mean a negative word though. You just think it is via your interpretation. It is a contrast to the word Cis which means "the same side" and was originally used by the greeks to refer to their mountain ranges sides.

I could make the same argument about the word "black" or "women" being derogatory simply due to connotations people have with either the color black or the concept of women being a verbal "subset" of man.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

If one culture does not " trump another" quit calling two spirits transgenders because transgenders is a negative word by definition and offensive.

So you have the right to call them two spirits, but others don't have the right to call them transgender?
Yeah, my answer to that, in your own words no less ...

Yes, I DO have that right, and no I am not going to stop using my right simply because you think you have the right to take that right from me.

As for transgender being an offensive term, that is your opinion, and one that is not shared by the majority of people whom that term applies to. At least in the "western world", most of the people you would refer to as two spirits, prefer to be called transgender. If they aren't taking offence to it, then how is it offensive?

Here you are trying to force your culture on me while telling me to stop using my own cultures terms to describe having characteristic of both the masculine and the famine.

That is exactly what you are doing.

How about you use your cultural terms, and we use ours?

mis·a·ligned
ˌmisəˈlīnd/
adjective
having an incorrect position or alignment.
By definition it says they have an incorrect alignment. Of course that is negative. It is your own language that is calling it negative, that is only reflective of how your society views them in the first place. I do not see it is okay to describe them as a negative, because they are not " misaligned" that was how they were supposed to be, they are normal, not broken.
My culture did not define misalignment as a negative, yours did. yours created this definition that says there is something wrong with them, not mine.

 

[Rosiv]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

snip

Is creationism a fact then? Or Jesus? Ones culture or religion is not fact. Show the well placed evidence if it exists, which it doesn't. You were the one who corrected me on this point Lil Devils a ways ago, so again this leads to you another hypocrisy, or maybe just a poor memory.

If they were given options to be both society would not be pressuring them to choose. It has not yet come that far. They are not given facilities for both, there are not many options for them in sex segregated areas for both society in general has not yet accepted them as both.

This is wrong, factually. They are given options, you just didnt know about them, and assumed other wize. Plently of people choose to be gender-queer and plenty choose to be women or men. The key is that its their choice.

For the aside: Is skin tone different between the tribes? I always assumed the reason they were lumped together was their same brownish skin tone. I mean your white so i know that one does not have to be white to be a first nation person, but still, skin color attributes to how one could of been marginalized, that was more of my point. Sorry for being vague.

Comparing two spirits to creationism is comparing apples to orangutans. It has been known for thousands of years that gender does not have to match sex, and has now been confirmed in brain scans as well. This isn't some ' new discovery" we know nothing about, humanity has been living as and with this for a very long time now, and much has already been established by the many cultures of the world as well as science. Now you are just being silly for the sake of being silly.

They are NOT given options in the majority of western society, and that is an issue. Some have started to give them options, but it is far from being accepted everywhere as of yet. facilities are not provided everywhere yet, "Queer" is ALSO a derogatory term and have been used to abuse Two spirits as well, so it can also be considered a very negative and hurtful word, of course people in western society would not choose to be called "gender queer" because of the stigmas that go along with it."Queer" is still trying to say something is wrong with them. UGH, why must all words in the west used to describe two spirits be negative? It would be nice if for once they had a word without the negative " you are broken and not right" attached to it.

Yes, skin tone is different among the tribes, and the tribes actually came to the Americas at different times over thousands of years, so genetically they are frequently very different.

I can compare whatever i want, that is why its called a comparison. The only point that needs to be the same is the point i am comparing. The comparison as i stated before is that you have a set of beliefs which are not based on fact. Two spirited people are not based on science, they are cultural, as is every facet of gender as far as sociology is concerned. To argue gender is biological is something that i personally wish was true, but know the brain scan studies do not fully support, since they only show differences in brain structure, not the origins of such. That is the nature of nature vs nurture issues though.

And yea "Queer" being a derogatory term is more contextual than anything. Sorry if that offends you, but the western term and movement people identify with is "genderqueer". Negative words dont have to always stay negative you know? Case and point the N-word and african americans?

It is funny how you still dont get it. You refer to people as two spirited as if you had that right. Do you understand my point? You dont get to tell people how to live their lives. If they want to be women even though they were born men, then they get to be women. They dont have to KowTow to your "two spirited" viewpoint simply because you "think" it is better. It is like me calling all Hopi people "brown dudes" simply because they might of at one point had brown skin and i feel that it was appropriate for my "Western" culture. One culture doesn't trump another.

I have just as much right to refer to them as two spirit as you do to refer to them as homo sapiens. It is a non derogatory word with a definition that applies. It is no more wrong to refer to someone who has both masculine and feminine as two spirited as it is to refer to water as being wet. Yes, I DO have that right, and no I am not going to stop using my right simply because you think you have the right to take that right from me. You are still two spirit if you are born a woman and have cosmetic surgery to be a man, surgery does not change that.

If one culture does not " trump another" quit calling two spirits transgenders because transgenders is a negative word by definition and offensive.

LoL I dont call anyone anything. I let people call themselves things. So if a two spirited person from the first nations at my campus wants to be two spirted i dont get involved. And if a person wants to be referd to as women when they are born a man i dont get involved either. You dont understand the concept yet? You dont get to tell people how to live their lives, if you yourself do not want that type of control on you, which you clearly dont.

Homosapian is a scientific term. Two spirited is a first nation term. One is scientific fact, the other is cultural. Whether it is "derogatory" is really up to the individual being referenced and not us to decide. Case and point using the word "black" to refer to dark skined people with hertiage from Africa. I have had many hits and miss using the word.

Yes, I DO have that right, and no I am not going to stop using my right simply because you think you have the right to take that right from me.

You have the right to call someone whatever they want i understand that. That doesn't make you a sensible person though. That makes you a hypocrite, which was my point that you either are willfully ignoring or due to cultural differences dont seem to "get".
Regardless of the derogatory or non derogatory nature of the word, you make your self a hypocrite when you hold contradictory standards. And when you reveal someone's hypocracy that is enough to devaule their opinion, which is what i am setting out to do. This is because i dont like people who are so obviously hypocritical, since it makes me trust them less.

So call people whatever you want. Ill just call you out on it dogmaticly because of my contempt for people like you, blatant hypocrites.

Please stop with the name calling. Me choosing to use my own cultures terms that do not have the negativity associated with it as the western terms do does not make me a hypocrite and senseless. There is no need for insults, and there is nothing constructive that comes from insulting someone. I do not wish to call those whose gender differs from their sex " misaligned", thus will refrain from using such a negative term to describe them. That is not hypocrisy or insensibility.

Name calling? There is no name calling. You called me silly because i held views you thought were laughable, and i refer to you the same way. Any attempt of "name calling" is again silly. Tell me exactly where i have called you a name, so i can correct myself like before or report me for being that rude, because i HAVE NOT called you a name to warrent that.

And if you really dont get it i will explain.

That is not hypocrisy or insensibility

When you tell someone that they arent what they say they are, that is being insensible, since you yourself wanted to be referred to in certain ways, even in this VERY argument, this inconsistency also makes you a hypocrite, which is not a name calling, but a fact due to your inconsistent behavior, which you seem to be blind to, which i am trying to reveal to you. If you see hypocrite as an insult i dont understand why, it is not derogatory, it just means you are inconsistent and are not to be trusted at keeping your stance. There is nothing wrong with that, it just means you arent a great person to hold stances on things, because they will be weakened by your inconsistency.

So yes it is hypocrisy for you not to respect the identity of trans people when you expect to be respected for your identity yourself, which you already established numerous times with you references to First Nation and Hopi culture.

 

[lacktheknack]

The option that appeals to me the most: Force everyone to use changing stalls so that people don't change in the open. Then let transgendered people choose their locker room of choice.

 

[Rosiv]

If one culture does not " trump another" quit calling two spirits transgenders because transgenders is a negative word by definition and offensive.

So you have the right to call them two spirits, but others don't have the right to call them transgender?
Yeah, my answer to that, in your own words no less ...

Yes, I DO have that right, and no I am not going to stop using my right simply because you think you have the right to take that right from me.

As for transgender being an offensive term, that is your opinion, and one that is not shared by the majority of people whom that term applies to. At least in the "western world", most of the people you would refer to as two spirits, prefer to be called transgender. If they aren't taking offence to it, then how is it offensive?

Here you are trying to force your culture on me while telling me to stop using my own cultures terms to describe having characteristic of both the masculine and the famine.

That is exactly what you are doing.

How about you use your cultural terms, and we use ours?

mis·a·ligned
ˌmisəˈlīnd/
adjective
having an incorrect position or alignment.
By definition it says they have an incorrect alignment. Of course that is negative. It is your own language that is calling it negative, that is only reflective of how your society views them in the first place. I do not see it is okay to describe them as a negative, because they are not " misaligned" that was how they were supposed to be, they are normal, not broken.
My culture did not define misalignment as a negative, yours did. yours created this definition that says there is something wrong with them, not mine.

How are you getting misaligned from trans? I am curious. That is a stretch and a ambiguous-word argument strategy. Trans means a shift, and change, because as stated before, its orginial context was used for mountain ranges sides. To apply a negative spin is your take on it.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

If one culture does not " trump another" quit calling two spirits transgenders because transgenders is a negative word by definition and offensive.

So you have the right to call them two spirits, but others don't have the right to call them transgender?
Yeah, my answer to that, in your own words no less ...

Yes, I DO have that right, and no I am not going to stop using my right simply because you think you have the right to take that right from me.

As for transgender being an offensive term, that is your opinion, and one that is not shared by the majority of people whom that term applies to. At least in the "western world", most of the people you would refer to as two spirits, prefer to be called transgender. If they aren't taking offence to it, then how is it offensive?

Here you are trying to force your culture on me while telling me to stop using my own cultures terms to describe having characteristic of both the masculine and the famine.

That is exactly what you are doing.

How about you use your cultural terms, and we use ours?

mis·a·ligned
ˌmisəˈlīnd/
adjective
having an incorrect position or alignment.
By definition it says they have an incorrect alignment. Of course that is negative. It is your own language that is calling it negative, that is only reflective of how your society views them in the first place. I do not see it is okay to describe them as a negative, because they are not " misaligned" that was how they were supposed to be, they are normal, not broken.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transgender

adjective
trans·gen·der
\-ˈjen-dər\

: of or relating to people who have a sexual identity that is not clearly male or clearly female

: of, relating to, or being a person (as a transsexual or transvestite) who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth

You see? I can find dictionary definitions to suit my needs as well. An online dictionary choosing to use the word "misaligned" does not make the term offensive.

Typically, transgender is understood to simply mean "a person whose gender is not the same as their sex". You can pour what ever meanings you want on top of that, it does not make it offensive.

And I'll ask again, if the majority of transgender/two spirit people do not find the term transgender offensive, then how is it offensive? How other than you is offended by it?

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Yes, but the issue is all of the words in the west that are used to describe them have the underlying theme that "something is not right" negative. That is the problem with starting from this angle, the way this is viewed as something being broken that needs fixed from the beginning, is weighted and biased against them from the go. How can they ever view themselves as " normal" and live a normal life when even the very words to describe them are weighted against them?

I wouldn't say the term "trans" implies a negative. It's more directly descriptive; etymologically it means "across".

According to the definitions in the dictionaries, it is negative. Referring it to being a " misalignment" is negative, that it is something that is not right and needs to be fixed.

"a prefix meaning ?on the other side of,? referring to the misalignment of one?s gender identity with one's biological sex assigned at birth"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trans-


When your car's wheels are misaligned you go get it aligned.

Cis and trans refer to "on the other side". This doesnt have to mean a negative word though. You just think it is via your interpretation. It is a contrast to the word Cis which means "the same side" and was originally used by the greeks to refer to their mountain ranges sides.

I could make the same argument about the word "black" or "women" being derogatory simply due to connotations people have with either the color black or the concept of women being a verbal "subset" of man.

Being in the medical field myself, the reason for my concern with the usage of this terminology to describe someone means there is something inherently wrong that we need to treat, and I disagree that is necessary the case simply because they are both masculine and feminine and it sets a dangerous precedent. They would necessarily need to remove the idea of a misalignment being present in order to make the word non negative.

Simply being both masculine and feminine is not a condition that necessarily needs treatment.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

How are you getting misaligned from trans? I am curious. That is a stretch and a ambiguous-word argument strategy. Trans means a shift, and change, because as stated before, its orginial context was used for mountain ranges sides. To apply a negative spin is your take on it.

It was from a specific dictionary definition.

According to the definitions in the dictionaries, it is negative. Referring it to being a " misalignment" is negative, that it is something that is not right and needs to be fixed.

"a prefix meaning ?on the other side of,? referring to the misalignment of one?s gender identity with one's biological sex assigned at birth"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trans-


When your car's wheels are misaligned you go get it aligned.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

How are you getting misaligned from trans? I am curious. That is a stretch and a ambiguous-word argument strategy. Trans means a shift, and change, because as stated before, its orginial context was used for mountain ranges sides. To apply a negative spin is your take on it.

It was from a specific dictionary definition.

According to the definitions in the dictionaries, it is negative. Referring it to being a " misalignment" is negative, that it is something that is not right and needs to be fixed.

"a prefix meaning ?on the other side of,? referring to the misalignment of one?s gender identity with one's biological sex assigned at birth"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trans-


When your car's wheels are misaligned you go get it aligned.

No it is ALSO used frequently in medical journals and by the medical community to describe them. It is in the dictionary due to the usage of the word medically.

 

[Rosiv]

Yes, but the issue is all of the words in the west that are used to describe them have the underlying theme that "something is not right" negative. That is the problem with starting from this angle, the way this is viewed as something being broken that needs fixed from the beginning, is weighted and biased against them from the go. How can they ever view themselves as " normal" and live a normal life when even the very words to describe them are weighted against them?

I wouldn't say the term "trans" implies a negative. It's more directly descriptive; etymologically it means "across".

According to the definitions in the dictionaries, it is negative. Referring it to being a " misalignment" is negative, that it is something that is not right and needs to be fixed.

"a prefix meaning ?on the other side of,? referring to the misalignment of one?s gender identity with one's biological sex assigned at birth"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trans-


When your car's wheels are misaligned you go get it aligned.

Cis and trans refer to "on the other side". This doesnt have to mean a negative word though. You just think it is via your interpretation. It is a contrast to the word Cis which means "the same side" and was originally used by the greeks to refer to their mountain ranges sides.

I could make the same argument about the word "black" or "women" being derogatory simply due to connotations people have with either the color black or the concept of women being a verbal "subset" of man.

Being in the medical field myself, the reason for my concern with the usage of this terminology to describe someone means there is something inherently wrong that we need to treat, and I disagree that is necessary the case simply because they are both masculine and feminine and it sets a dangerous precedent. They would necessarily need to remove the idea of a misalignment being present in order to make the word non negative.

What exactly are you talking about? Tell me how the word "trans" implies "need to treat" please. Do you mean "misaligned", because that was your interpretation of the word trans, which is a stretch, and as stated before not really true to the words origin or use, which as stated before come from the greeks refering to "sides" of mountain ranges. Not to be rude of course.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

No it is ALSO used frequently in medical journals and by the medical community to describe them. It is in the dictionary due to the usage of the word medically.

It is not in the dictionary, it is in a dictionary.
Specifically, this one, under the definition of "trans-".

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trans-

And yet, from this very same dictionary, under the definition of "transgender", there is no use of the word "misaligned".

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/transgender

Along with these dictionaries, none of which make use of the word "misaligned" either.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/transgender
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transgender
http://www.yourdictionary.com/transgender
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/transgender