Poll: Affirmative Action
- Thread starter JakePwnsAtLife
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Cheese Pavilian (can't get quoting to work)
The term "minority" is simple based on numbers. People have tried to change the meaning to play semantics games, but this has not changed. Sort of like how people have tried to extend the meaning of the term "Genocide" to include things are are not Genocide (ie a "simple" act of mass murder is oftentimes referred to as an attempted Genocide. It's also extended by some to include the destruction of an ideaology or culture rather than the erasure of a genotype).
In the US this is a paticular issue because while we are a Representitive Republic we operate in the spirit of Democracy. Democracy meaning that the majority wins. Basically everyone votes and whatever gets the most votes is what everyone does. Thus minorities are supposed to have very little, if any, power of the majority. That is Democracy.
As far as the long term repercussions of short term slavery, I see very little in the way of validity in that point of view nowadays. That pretty much ended at the time a certain someone was able to stand up and give the "I had a Dream Speech" and saw it arguably form the foundation for a reformation.
Simply put I refuse to feel guilt over the fact that my people "won" in the old world, and ethnics have changed since then. If you see people putting Blacks in chains and forcing them to pick cotton, I have an issue with that nowadays. But crying about the fact that someone did it a long time ago is ultimatly meaningless.
As far as your comments about the removal of any advantages I have that I wouldn't have if my ansesctors hadn't benefitted from racism, I honestly think very little would have changed if there wasn't slavery. All of the same things would have occured.
BUT if you want to argue that point, then we can of course go back several thousand years and start talking about repairations for when dark skinned people enslaved lighter skinned people. That went on FAR longer since "blacks" arguably developed the first civilizations and along with it came slavery. It was more or less the white peoples who started bringing an end to it (though admittedly it still exists through places in the third world for all intents and purposes).
Tell you what, head down to the remnants of some of these old empires, like oh... say Egypt, and demand repairations. If we ever receive adequete compensation (which would probably exceed the entire combined value of all such remaining groups, including Egypt) thenI guess we can kick a tiny fraction of it over to American blacks who can prove their forefathers were actually enslaved in the US (as opposed to immigrating later), in proportion to the amount of time we practiced such slavery.
If we balanced that equasion I can virtually guarantee "we" would wind up with huge fortunes while handing out a comparitive pittience. Well, then again I suppose both blacks and most of the europeans could go after the Greeks and Romans, though admittedly they were being enslaved by groups like the Persiand and Egyptians (when they could) at the same time they were taking slaves.
The point I'm making here is that the issue of slavery is NOT an American institution and when you think beyond the cosm of the US, you begin to realize we really weren't all that bad within the vast, historical, scope of the issue.
>>>----Therumancer--->
The term "minority" is simple based on numbers. People have tried to change the meaning to play semantics games, but this has not changed. Sort of like how people have tried to extend the meaning of the term "Genocide" to include things are are not Genocide (ie a "simple" act of mass murder is oftentimes referred to as an attempted Genocide. It's also extended by some to include the destruction of an ideaology or culture rather than the erasure of a genotype).
In the US this is a paticular issue because while we are a Representitive Republic we operate in the spirit of Democracy. Democracy meaning that the majority wins. Basically everyone votes and whatever gets the most votes is what everyone does. Thus minorities are supposed to have very little, if any, power of the majority. That is Democracy.
As far as the long term repercussions of short term slavery, I see very little in the way of validity in that point of view nowadays. That pretty much ended at the time a certain someone was able to stand up and give the "I had a Dream Speech" and saw it arguably form the foundation for a reformation.
Simply put I refuse to feel guilt over the fact that my people "won" in the old world, and ethnics have changed since then. If you see people putting Blacks in chains and forcing them to pick cotton, I have an issue with that nowadays. But crying about the fact that someone did it a long time ago is ultimatly meaningless.
As far as your comments about the removal of any advantages I have that I wouldn't have if my ansesctors hadn't benefitted from racism, I honestly think very little would have changed if there wasn't slavery. All of the same things would have occured.
BUT if you want to argue that point, then we can of course go back several thousand years and start talking about repairations for when dark skinned people enslaved lighter skinned people. That went on FAR longer since "blacks" arguably developed the first civilizations and along with it came slavery. It was more or less the white peoples who started bringing an end to it (though admittedly it still exists through places in the third world for all intents and purposes).
Tell you what, head down to the remnants of some of these old empires, like oh... say Egypt, and demand repairations. If we ever receive adequete compensation (which would probably exceed the entire combined value of all such remaining groups, including Egypt) thenI guess we can kick a tiny fraction of it over to American blacks who can prove their forefathers were actually enslaved in the US (as opposed to immigrating later), in proportion to the amount of time we practiced such slavery.
If we balanced that equasion I can virtually guarantee "we" would wind up with huge fortunes while handing out a comparitive pittience. Well, then again I suppose both blacks and most of the europeans could go after the Greeks and Romans, though admittedly they were being enslaved by groups like the Persiand and Egyptians (when they could) at the same time they were taking slaves.
The point I'm making here is that the issue of slavery is NOT an American institution and when you think beyond the cosm of the US, you begin to realize we really weren't all that bad within the vast, historical, scope of the issue.
>>>----Therumancer--->
The mere application of it implies that everyone who isn't white is inferior, and therefore needs government assistance. It's completely demeaning bullshit.
I have never been a minority, far from it actually, but I think that Affirmative action is stupid. People can get ahead in life no matter what, race shouldn't even be considered in this day and age.
I haven't read everyone's responses, and probably won't right now. Too hungry. Just going to suggest you read a book. This one, specifically:
http://tinyurl.com/cc7mqr
It might open your eyes on a thing or two. Make you think more critically, at the very least, and that's always a good thing. Enjoy.
http://tinyurl.com/cc7mqr
It might open your eyes on a thing or two. Make you think more critically, at the very least, and that's always a good thing. Enjoy.
It's institutionalized, legitimized discrimination on a race basis. Racism. That doesn't describe the *totality* of what it is, but to me it's quite sufficient to determine whether it's acceptable for the state and public-funded organizations.Cheeze_Pavilion said:
Oblivious summed in it easily. It's ridiculous, and completely against the beliefs that built the United States of America. Affirmative Action is essentially the deathknell of social Darwinism in America.Cpt_Oblivious said:
Or was it welfare that was the death knell? Hrm...
All right, I'll bite.
This topic is full of white kids who have never seen affirmative action in use and only know about it from the news and what they hear second hand.
So I'll tell you a few things.
Affirmative action has accomplished very little in application other than being another source of feel good, "look, we are doing something to say we are doing something." political BS. Go to the so called "minority" communities and ask someone if affirmative action has had any impact on their life, or the community at large.
Also, white women have benefitted far more from affirmative action than anyone else, if you follow the numbers on what affirmative action programs has really achieved since being implemented.
tl;dr It's another piece of bullshit legislation designed to be a red herring from issues that matter, and allows the government to symbolically wash the blood from it's collective hand. Kill it dead, and little will change, outside of the governemnt and corporations not having an excuse for their subtle, ingrained, institutionalized racism.
This topic is full of white kids who have never seen affirmative action in use and only know about it from the news and what they hear second hand.
So I'll tell you a few things.
Affirmative action has accomplished very little in application other than being another source of feel good, "look, we are doing something to say we are doing something." political BS. Go to the so called "minority" communities and ask someone if affirmative action has had any impact on their life, or the community at large.
Also, white women have benefitted far more from affirmative action than anyone else, if you follow the numbers on what affirmative action programs has really achieved since being implemented.
tl;dr It's another piece of bullshit legislation designed to be a red herring from issues that matter, and allows the government to symbolically wash the blood from it's collective hand. Kill it dead, and little will change, outside of the governemnt and corporations not having an excuse for their subtle, ingrained, institutionalized racism.
If I were born hispanic, black, asian, or any other minority race then I pretty much automatically get a college scholarship but because I was born white I dont get a scholarship for that.
Affirmative Actions is a system that has long served its purpose and needs to be done away with.
Affirmative Actions is a system that has long served its purpose and needs to be done away with.
My US History teacher simply LOVED debating this for some reason or another and I always came to the same conclusion: affirmative action is ridiculous.
It's discrimination to prevent discrimination. You simply can't fight fire with fire. Or stop a flood with water. Or whatever metaphor you wanna use, it's up to you.
It's discrimination to prevent discrimination. You simply can't fight fire with fire. Or stop a flood with water. Or whatever metaphor you wanna use, it's up to you.
Yes you can. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firebreak]darthzew said:
I take a long term view with affirmative action. I'm not going to pretend that it's a perfect system, but I like to see it as a flattening measure.
As the college students of today become the heads of industry of tomorrow, treating people the same way regardless of race becomes more natural, because there isn't as much segregation. The generation after that, it becomes more natural still, and so on and so on. It's too easy to think that because racism isn't overt any more that it has gone away. It hasn't, and pretending like it has by not talking about it does no one any favours.
White people getting all bent out of shape about it makes me chuckle though. Affirmative Action is the probably going to be the only time a white person feels any kind of discrimination ever, unless they're a woman of course.
What's the point of further singling out minorities?
Putting someone ahead to compensate for the period of time they were downtrodden isn't really how equality is supposed to work.
Putting someone ahead to compensate for the period of time they were downtrodden isn't really how equality is supposed to work.
I think that really depends on the comment. If I say "I don't think that the singer from Bloc Party has a very good voice," you'd be hard pressed to call me a racist, even though Kele Okereke is black.Seekster said:
If I said, "I don't really like black singers", well that's a different story altogether really, isn't it?
Which is how it should be, although your previous comment suggests that you are at least a little defensive when the subject of race comes up.Seekster said: