Poll: American?s disillusion with WW2

[TheRundownRabbit]

Oh look, the american public is being stereotyped again, shocker -_-

And by the way, you should really brush up on your definition with "disillusion"

 

[Dys]

What! The french surrended within two weeks of being invaded.

If I recall correctly that was only the government. Not every Frenchman was an elected representative, and the french underground were constantly fighting.

 

[Gamblerjoe]

While i dont like the OP's attitude one bit, i do have to say that the British should be commended for being able to hold off the Germans and defeat them in the air before Germany invaded Russia. (side note: they didnt become the Soviet Union untill after WWII).

Germany really had their shit together for a while. The only reason they won is because Russia ate up their resources, while the industry of the U.S. gave the allies the resources to win a war of attrition. I think i remember hearing a translated quote somewhere "it took 10 sherman tanks to take out 1 tiger, but there was allways an 11th."

Some really neat espionage stuff went on too. anyone who cares knows about the enigma machine, and the fake spy corpse they dropped in the ocean on the coast of spain, etc. etc. allready know all about them. The British really shined in this area too.

The U.S. all but single handedly won the war in the pacific. Had we not dropped the bomb, the attack on the mainland of Japan would have taken a couple million allied lives i believe. Since we only had 2 A-bombs to our name, and didnt know 100% if they were going to work, and who the hell knows if the Japanese will EVER surrender, we had to have a contingency (invasion) plan. Again, to give the British their due credit, if i remember the numbers correctly, the plan estimated the death of 1 million British troops, and they were willing to participate.

 

[SpiderHam666]

Ok being an American I agree that perhaps we do hold onto your "pride" from WWII just a little too much but that was our last big win. Yes we have ended up not being totally creamed in some of our more recent events but at the same time our pride is tarnished.

 

[MoeTheMonk]

I really get sick of these American-hate threads. Don't Europeans have anything better to do with their time than sit around discussing how awful America is?
I'd say the American war contribution in Europe and the Pacific, along with their industry and supplies they provided puts them at least on level with the British and the Russians.

 

[malestrithe]

After reading all the posts on this thread, I find it sad that we are arguing about a conflict that strted over 70 years ago. Was it important? Yes, but move on people.

Also, Yahtzee is wrong according to this thread. Apparently, WWII is the single greatest achivement in recent memory for not just the United State, but also France, Russia and Great Britain as well. I mean, if you spend all of this time arguing over whose great grandfathers packages were larger, then clearly your countries have not done anything significant since then.

 

[TilMorrow]

I have to say his praise of the French in world war 2 is total bullshit. They literally let Germany take over france however there were some French rebels who weren't cowards.

I will admit though that the Americans did help speed up the end of the war when they found a reason to get involved through Pearl Harbour although I suspect they would have joined in anyway as they would have been fearful of the possibility of the Germans invading later. However the Americans did crap in the war and were lucky they only lost the second highest amount of people during the war compared to russia.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

I'm no student of history in any intimate detail, thus all I know is the following:

Lots of young men died trying to what they thought was right. I can't imagine the galling horror a young German man might have felt when all the attrocities of the Nazi regime were brought to light. Nor can I imagine what it would have been like to have served on the Kokoda track with the ANZACS of the time. All I can do is remember that it happened, that many great nations sacrificed blood, sweat and tears in a common goal.

My country may only have contributed small forces the Great War, but we contributed. And it is enough to know that.

 

[Icarion (aka Stockholm)]

I'd say the biggest amount of praise should go to the russians, and it probably would were it not for stalin being a massive tool and being all murderous and whatnot.

Yeah the Russians lost millions of people and took Berlin first. I mean, sure they sacked it killed the men and raped the women but they fought the hardest and the longest. They also fought the samrtest, using their winter to turn the tide of the Eastern Front. That is true strategy. But the Americans did help alot, sure the tide didn't sway right away but the added materials and men undoutably helped.

 

[RoBi3.0]

I'd say the biggest amount of praise should go to the russians, and it probably would were it not for stalin being a massive tool and being all murderous and whatnot.

Yeah the Russians lost millions of people and took Berlin first. I mean, sure they sacked it killed the men and raped the women but they fought the hardest and the longest. They also fought the samrtest, using their winter to turn the tide of the Eastern Front. That is true strategy. But the Americans did help alot, sure the tide didn't sway right away but the added materials and men undoutably helped.

Mother Winter has been saving Russia's ass since the dawn of time. Seriously that is the only strategy in their play book.

Once Global warming kicks in the Russians are going to be in a ton of shit.

 

[Icarion (aka Stockholm)]

I'd say the biggest amount of praise should go to the russians, and it probably would were it not for stalin being a massive tool and being all murderous and whatnot.

Yeah the Russians lost millions of people and took Berlin first. I mean, sure they sacked it killed the men and raped the women but they fought the hardest and the longest. They also fought the samrtest, using their winter to turn the tide of the Eastern Front. That is true strategy. But the Americans did help alot, sure the tide didn't sway right away but the added materials and men undoutably helped.

Mother Winter has been saving Russia's ass since the dawn of time. Seriously that is the only strategy in their play book.

Once Global warming kicks in the Russians are going to be in a ton of shit.

Yeah but maybe the Nuclear winter will cancel it out Then the Russinas will really be in their element

 

[Sinclair Solutions]

Boy, we American are such pompous dicks, aren't we?

In all seriousness, the problem you describe is very complicated and it branches from the tidal wave of propaganda that was out during WWII. You see, after WWI and for many other reasons, Americans actually wanted nothing to do with wars. WWI was a massive time and money sink that left America with no benefits, since the treaty to the League of Nations was shot down by Congress. Americans wanted a neutrality policy (or the "Fuck off" policy, as I call it), and for the longest time FDR satiated those desired with two Neutrality Acts. He wanted to stay out of the war as much as everyone else.

But then the war grew to large, and after Pearl Harbor was attacked, FDR felt he had no choice in entering the war. Most Americans wanted war after Pearl Harbor, but there were still large amounts of people that did not. Plus, FDR and the army had to get people to donate food, clothes, etc to benefit the war effort. How could they do that? Propaganda. Look up "WWII Propaganda" right now on Google. Look at the imagery. The images that prey on people's fears. Soon, WWII became about fighting the fears posted in those posters. Then, WWII (especially the support on the home front) became about supporting one's country, and if you didn't, you were just as bad as a Nazi. It created a wave of nationalism, which was actually a cause of WWI. The policy worked, clearly, and its effect satiate into today's society. Those who do not know any better think what FDR wanted them to believe: America is a badass country that won the war single handedly, and if you don't believe that, you aren't an American. Most people who know the horrors of WWII and what actually happened know that's not true, but not everyone learns about WWII in detail. It's sad,but true.

As with the case of Hiroshima, nobody in America is "proud" of that. Oh sure, we may joke about it (I don't know why we do, but we do), but we aren't proud. Anybody that is proud is a fool and an idiot, and will be treated as such. But once again, the nuclear bomb is a complicated situation. Now, there have been theories of Japan considering surrender not because of the bomb, but because the Russians declared war on them. But Russia declared war AFTER the bomb dropped. That may be true, but Truman did not consider Russia declaring war on Japan. He saw he had two options: the bomb or another D-Day operation, only this time on the shores of Japan instead of Normandy. Hundreds, even thousands of Americans could have lost their lives. Truman chose the bomb. Was racism a factor? Maybe. Truman wasn't the most kind and most considerate President we had, but he decided to choose American lives over Japanese lives. Was he proud? I doubt it, but he knew he had to make a decision. Also, I am not sure why he decided to drop a bomb on civilian cities. Perhaps someone could look it up, but I am sure someone had a reason.

TL;DR: Americans are not proud of WWII and the nuclear bomb; our supposed "disillusion" stems from the series of propaganda used by FDR during that time to convince a war weary public that WWII was something that is heroic and something to be fighting for. That thinking unfortunately has leaked its way into today's society for those who do not know the horrors of war.

 

[RoBi3.0]

Boy, we American are such pompous dicks, aren't we?

In all seriousness, the problem you describe is very complicated and it branches from the tidal wave of propaganda that was out during WWII. You see, after WWI and for many other reasons, Americans actually wanted nothing to do with wars. WWI was a massive time and money sink that left America with no benefits, since the treaty to the League of Nations was shot down by Congress. Americans wanted a neutrality policy (or the "Fuck off" policy, as I call it), and for the longest time FDR satiated those desired with two Neutrality Acts. He wanted to stay out of the war as much as everyone else.

But then the war grew to large, and after Pearl Harbor was attacked, FDR felt he had no choice in entering the war. Most Americans wanted war after Pearl Harbor, but there were still large amounts of people that did not. Plus, FDR and the army had to get people to donate food, clothes, etc to benefit the war effort. How could they do that? Propaganda. Look up "WWII Propaganda" right now on Google. Look at the imagery. The images that prey on people's fears. Soon, WWII became about fighting the fears posted in those posters. Then, WWII (especially the support on the home front) became about supporting one's country, and if you didn't, you were just as bad as a Nazi. It created a wave of nationalism, which was actually a cause of WWI. The policy worked, clearly, and its effect satiate into today's society. Those who do not know any better think what FDR wanted them to believe: America is a badass country that won the war single handedly, and if you don't believe that, you aren't an American. Most people who know the horrors of WWII and what actually happened know that's not true, but not everyone learns about WWII in detail. It's sad,but true.

As with the case of Hiroshima, nobody in America is "proud" of that. Oh sure, we may joke about it (I don't know why we do, but we do), but we aren't proud. Anybody that is proud is a fool and an idiot, and will be treated as such. But once again, the nuclear bomb is a complicated situation. Now, there have been theories of Japan considering surrender not because of the bomb, but because the Russians declared war on them. But Russia declared war AFTER the bomb dropped. That may be true, but Truman did not consider Russia declaring war on Japan. He saw he had two options: the bomb or another D-Day operation, only this time on the shores of Japan instead of Normandy. Hundreds, even thousands of Americans could have lost their lives. Truman chose the bomb. Was racism a factor? Maybe. Truman wasn't the most kind and most considerate President we had, but he decided to choose American lives over Japanese lives. Was he proud? I doubt it, but he knew he had to make a decision. Also, I am not sure why he decided to drop a bomb on civilian cities. Perhaps someone could look it up, but I am sure someone had a reason.

TL;DR: Americans are not proud of WWII and the nuclear bomb; our supposed "disillusion" stems from the series of propaganda used by FDR during that time to convince a war weary public that WWII was something that is heroic and something to be fighting for. That thinking unfortunately has leaked its way into today's society for those who do not know the horrors of war.

He didn't drop the bombs on "civilian" cities Hiroshima housed one of Japan's larger military bases. Nagasaki was an industrialized city that made a lot of shit for Japans war effort.

EDIT: Not that I think that dropping the bomb was right. I feel the need to also point out that prior to the bombing the U.S. urged all civilian to leave to leave cities instrumental to the Japanese war efforts. Cities like Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Murdering civilian wasn't the goal of the bombing.

 

[JourneyThroughHell]

So you're saying Americans are wrong to believe their involvment was the decisive point of the war... but, then, you go to say that it's all Britain, Canada and France.

Hello, this is U.S.S.R. calling. We lost 25 million people during that war. The least you can do is acknowledge our participation.

France got occupied in a month. We fought for five years.

Also, about the British inolvement - I have three words for you: "The Phoney War".

Now, I'm not hating on either side - I think the British and the French played a valuable part in the fight against the Axis. However, I'm pretty sure so did America. And if you're calling one country out and then doing the same thing they're doing (i.e. giving the main credit for the victory to yourself) - that just really annoys me.

*The post is somewhat inflammatory, but it represents exactly what I feel about the whole situation. I apologise if I offended everyone.*

 

[Jaded Scribe]

Germany was far from the only offensive.

We (admittedly as far as I know, but I've seen little to suggest otherwise) pretty much single-handedly put Japan out of the war with the Atomic Bomb (whether our method was right or wrong is irrelevant to this discussion).

We turned the tide in many ways in Europe. While Allied forces were fighting valiantly, and were quite successful. I do not think WWII would have been won if the Americans had not stepped in.

 

[SirDeadly]

*cough* Who was the first to defeat the Japanese on land and send them packing?

 

[Dirzzit]

In reality, nobody won. we delude our selves into thinking that winning is having less people killed or firing the last shot is a achieved victory.

everyone did there part but,

nobody won.

 

[Escapefromwhatever]

Disilluision, huh? I think Inigo Montoya said it best when he said "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk]"

 

[Weaver]

I think the OP of this thread needs to learn the difference between a redneck yokel and an American with a general education (and I'm Canadian BTW). You'll find a lot of people on here from the states who actually DO know a bit about history and how things happened. They know they helped in the war (which they did) but they don't think they won the whole damn thing themselves.

In Canada we study WW2 from a Canadian perspective, but that doesn't mean we think we rolled over Europe all alone. I'm sure there are tons of Americans who know about and respect the contributions of all allied countries in the war effort.

 

[Sinclair Solutions]

It was projected that about one million Americans would have died attempting to invade Japan, with, if I remember correctly, between 7 and 10 million Japanese projected to have died.

Hell, there are videos of Japanese soldiers training civilians to strap themselves with explosives and jump under American tanks and into road ways

And the bomb sites were chosen because one (Nagasaki, I think) was a major industrial center, and the other (if I remember correctly, I read this one years ago) was a major civilian center

Both may have been industrial, but I'm not fully sure.

And also there was a fuck-ton of propaganda during the Cold War stating that America was the greatest thing ever

He didn't drop the bombs on "civilian" cities Hiroshima housed one of Japan's larger military bases. Nagasaki was an industrialized city that made a lot of shit for Japans war effort.

EDIT: Not that I think that dropping the bomb was right. I feel the need to also point out that prior to the bombing the U.S. urged all civilian to leave to leave cities instrumental to the Japanese war efforts. Cities like Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Murdering civilian wasn't the goal of the bombing.

Thank you to both of you for clearing that up, especially about the two cities bombed and the amount of possible soldiers killed. It just shows that, to Truman, the bomb was the better option. It also shows that the propaganda continued, assuring it's effect on today's society.