Poll: (Another) feminism discussion

[generals3]

Three points:

1) We're not talking about games, we're talking about the games industry. The games industry can do those things.

Can yes, but does? And tbh, it gets really confusing in discussions where games, gaming industry and sometimes even gamers get used interchangeably.

2) In the context of that definition it would be the attitudes of the developers/publishers that foster the stereotypes present in games.

But you need to be careful with that. GTA san andreas also presented a lot of black "gangsters", does it mean they're fostering a stereotype? GTA is a game that is about crooks and criminals so one "group" is always going to be badly represented. What i'm basically saying, context matters. And often (i'm not saying always and everyone), context is thrown out of the window (take Anita for instance)

3) You don't have to nitpick individual words in definitions, because that's not what's important. You're playing a game of semantics and it's only making you look obtuse and unreasonable.

Semantics is important when the word holds a very negative connotation. If i call people (eg) Nazis they sure are going to play on semantics. Calling something "sexist" isn't something that is taken lightly, and rightfully so.

I'm not defending what Raven said. I actually think she also missed the point initially and had difficulty articulating the problem, but in her second post she managed to spell it out a bit clearer. While I'm sure we'd LIKE there to be more games aimed at women, and that's it's own issue, the issue with sexism is with representation.

I'm not saying you're but you can't say i misunderstand the issue when i replied to a specific post. I wasn't claiming my reply was an "i win" response to all the issues raised. It was specifically aimed at raven's post.

No! No different! Only different in your mind!

So in your mind T&A in games is aimed to please misogynistic people?
Or are you claiming that devs want to harm women?

Because unless you say yes to both it IS different.

In principle it's directly analogous to what you were advocating - that free market capitalism bows to no one, and as long as the company is making money it's immune to criticism. But you would still argue the bullets are racist, no? That's the point I'm getting at - whether something is ethically problematic is wholly different to whether or not it sells.

I never said free market and capitalism bows to no one. You're taking a response out of its context. And frankly i'm tired of it. You're the second one doing it. I guess I should at least be happy you didn't just scream "strawman" at my post.

What you're doing now is invoking the question of intent - can something be sexist/racist/whatever without malevolent intent? And the answer to that is a definite 'yes', as evidenced by earlier examples I gave like Dumbo and Coal Black, or even more recent examples like Metroid: Other M. So the question of intent is irrelevant.

Intent is always important because it's part of the context, which is essential to any assessment. Can something be sexist without bad intent? Sure. But the big question is what "how is it sexist". Raven said the mere focusing on men is sexist. I don't that's just business, I will not recognize the idea basic marketing principles (target the potential consumers) are some kind of societal moral problem.

So yeah, you can't take a reply out of its context and apply it to an other.

I don't disagree with you. But the issue isn't having sexy women, it's sexing up women. And it's not even just that, because sexing up women for the sake of sex is fine (DoA for example - that's ok). It becomes a problem when developers can't seem to go without sexing up a character, and an otherwise respectable character devolves into gratuity. A classic example is Cortana. "If we're gonna have a female companion, we better make damn sure our players can fap over them otherwise what's the point? May as well be a dude." And that sentiment rings true for a massive chunk of female characters, not just in the way they look but how they behave. It's like the classic team of the leader, the egghead, the bruiser, the cool one, and "the girl". "Female" is treated as a personality type rather than a gender - something that gets slapped on an otherwise-would-be-male character just to give the cast more diversity and a chance to shoehorn in some eye candy.

The problem is that it devolving there is your perception. It can just as well be seen as: that character is awesome and sexy, double win! Why is it wrong to sex up a good character? Because being sexed up somehow transforms women into cheap hookers?

The lack of willingness of Naomi to close her lab coat entirely didn't somehow reduce her value as an awesome character in MGS4, same applies to Eva in MGS2.

I can totally understand people not liking it. But you can't simply say that your perception of what it does is what it actually does. Well you can, but you need to remain skeptical of your own assessment.

I see things as they are: sexing up = sexing up. That's it. What that does to characters in the eyes of people is 100% subjective.

And i can't really comment on the "women = a trait on itself" part because my gaming experience tells me otherwise but not having played all the games my view may be biased.

Regardless of whether or not you agree with me, do you understand what the issue is?

I understand the issue. I have since a long time. But I don't agree with the way it is being approached and the implications of said approach.

 

[generals3]

The problem is there are still parts of the game industry that think women are only casual gamers.

I think "only" is an exaggeration. But the belief women are much more likely to be casual gamers is backed up by studies and stats. So I don't call it a problem.

I'll agree though there was no need to add female and male to that phrase.

 

[marscentral]

The problem is there are still parts of the game industry that think women are only casual gamers.

I think "only" is an exaggeration. But the belief women are much more likely to be casual gamers is backed up by studies and stats. So I don't call it a problem.

I'll agree though there was no need to add female and male to that phrase.

But if the game industry assumes that women won't play "core" games and tailor them to men then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. If the majority of games starred generic, white, brown haired women out to save the Earth with the help of their love interest man-candy, I bet a lot less men would be playing video games.

 

[generals3]

But if the game industry assumes that women won't play "core" games and tailor them to men then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. If the majority of games starred generic, white, brown haired women out to save the Earth with the help of their love interest man-candy, I bet a lot less men would be playing video games.

That's because you assume they assume. Companies make very little unfounded assumptions. There is always data behind it. And that argument can be used for every single product/service because they are all targeted towards specific audiences.

 

[TehCookie]

Games don't need less fanservice, they need more MANSERVICE!

Yeah! lets go drink our manly Dr. Pepper 10 and spray ourselves with ax before we put in [insert manly game here]! Manly men gaming. Bro-five!

I meant it as in fanservice for women, hot shirtless guys, ass cam with men as the focus, more than one male character design etc. Then again since you have no problem with character design or role you could still enjoy the game for the gameplay

 

[CloudAtlas]

Games don't need less fanservice, they need more MANSERVICE!

Yeah! lets go drink our manly Dr. Pepper 10 and spray ourselves with ax before we put in [insert manly game here]! Manly men gaming. Bro-five!

I meant it as in fanservice for women, hot shirtless guys, ass cam with men as the focus, more than one male character design etc. Then again since you have no problem with character design or role you could still enjoy the game for the gameplay

Although that might have a nice educational effect, I'd still strongly prefer less female sexualization to more male sexualization.

 

[TehCookie]

Games don't need less fanservice, they need more MANSERVICE!

Yeah! lets go drink our manly Dr. Pepper 10 and spray ourselves with ax before we put in [insert manly game here]! Manly men gaming. Bro-five!

I meant it as in fanservice for women, hot shirtless guys, ass cam with men as the focus, more than one male character design etc. Then again since you have no problem with character design or role you could still enjoy the game for the gameplay

Although that might have a nice educational effect, I'd still strongly prefer less female sexualization to more male sexualization.

I don't like that because it's taking away something from someone else. If you want better written or more realistic female characters, I'd agree. Even male characters could benefit from better writing and help make games better and there would be less of a need to sexualize everything to get people's attention.

 

[generals3]

The consensus on these forums for the ones who don't find sexism in gaming to be an issue seems to be either A) the author has sole, absolute authority over his work and cannot create a sexist/racist work without intending to do so. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.823874-What-I-like-about-Dragons-Crown-Artwork?page=3#19963601] B) Counter allegations of sexism with "FREEDOM!" [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.824383-Poll-Another-feminism-discussion#19976993] ARTISTIC INTEGRITY!" [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.824383-Poll-Another-feminism-discussion#19977644] "CAPITALISM! [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.824383-Poll-Another-feminism-discussion?page=5#19991043]"

It's still ignoring those who don't see the sexism. Or those who think that the alledged sexism isn't bad because it harms no one. But tbh, I really don't care. I was merely giving a piece of your strawman accusations cake back to you.

"We ain't there yet" is incredibly poor phrasing on your part. Regardless, the argument is that sexism based on "good business" isn't sexism at all, which is nonsense. Good business can be sexist and it can be unethical, the desire to turn a profit in a capitalist society is not so overwhelming that businesses ought to be allowed to behave in an unethical fashion. Do you consider the sex trade to be "good business"? I don't mean consensual prostitution or pornography, I mean kidnapping foreign women and bringing them to first-world nations to force into prostitution and underground pornography.

I don't consider targeting to be any -ism. No. Have you ever flamed coca cola for being sexist? If not i see a double standard.

And now you compare a totally legit marketing technique to illegal activities? It's during moments like this you should realize your argument is leading nowhere.

I suppose you could say that it doesn't make good business sense to do something illegal, but in that case let's assume that a country makes sex slavery legal. Let's call it Saudi Arabia because god knows they don't enforce their anti-slavery laws as it is. Let's say Saudi Arabia makes sex slavery legal, is it good business sense to take women and force them into prostitution? Does that good business, that desire to turn a profit, does that excuse subjecting thousands and thousands of women to rape and abuse every day? If no, then why does institutionalizing sexism against women in the media get a pass because of its good business sense?

And now you compare targeting, again a perfectly legit and universally used tool, with infringing upon people's right? Great coca cola are equivalent to slave traders, any clothe makers are equivalent to slave traders and so on. It's when you get this far you should probably just retreat because right now your charging the ocean...

I read your posts, nothing in them exonerates you. At best, this is just a shallow, pathetic attempt at avoiding the discussion. Your position is that sexism can be excused because it makes good business sense, there's no additional context to it.

Lies. But please keep on strawmanning me (didn't your new irony meter blow up yet?). I said that sex-based targeting is very excusable. I don't call coca cola to be sexist shitbags for targeting coke zero to men and light to women. I don't call Jupiler sexist to give their beer the slogan "Men Know Why". I would however call them sexist if they'd discriminate against female employees, i would if they were somehow harming women, and so on.

The onus is on you to prove that sexism is an inappropriate word to use here. So far, you haven't been able to demonstrate that.

Simple sex-based targeting is for me marketing, not sexism. If it's sexism for you than I feel sorry for you because you'll see -isms everywhere around you everyday. Must be a dark world. This forum itself is probably also targeted towards a certain audience. OH NOES DISCRIMINUTION!

posts in this thread before you and I started our discussion. You know what the crazy part is? I actually read all seventeen posts and the ones you are responding to. You wanna know what else I found? No one argued that the problem is capitalism.

I find the list of posts you added to be weird since many didn't even relate to the point you're trying to make. But whatever. And you don't need to state something directly to imply it. People are bitching about the results of the market forces. That's thus saying the market is doing it wrong. The implication is simple: their self righteousness > market. I disagree considering the cause is... pointless.

This said. Why do you only bring this posts up now? Why did you quote one specific post of mine which was a reply to someone else who made a very clear point actually in my "favour" (so to speak). We could have avoided this predicament if you actually didn't choose the worst possible opportunity to pull this stunt.

The kicker here is that even if someone did, your posts haven't disproved that idea. If anything, they're fed into the idea that sexism in the games industry is too deeply ingrained, so the only probable solution is tearing the whole damn thing down. Now I don't believe that, I'm not of the opinion that the cultural hegemon never changes its views. What I am certain of is that your tossing around the phrases "free market", "targeted marketing" and "capitalism" makes you as guilty of using buzzwords as you claim your critics are.

Not really. See now when you have business background you tend to see things that way. If you think targeted marketing is a buzzword than i'm not sure what to say... It's something every company on the world does. Heck no one would invest in your project if you didn't define a target market. But ey, it's a buzzword. Just like sexism when you say targeting people get all riled up and it brings up so many negative thoughts.

I do, actually. There's really no other way to do it. Business does not get a pass because the goal is profit. Once again, your counter-argument is not and your point is an irrelevant truism.

Now comes the challenge. Find me one company which does not use targeting. Have fun looking! You've basically just said the whole business world is morally abject due to discriminatory practices. If this is what we get to expect from the new guard of social justice fighters...

I think the part you should be concerned with is why it's so damn believable.

Not really because it may very well imply something about you.

Except that I did do that, I posted a link to an essay on the topic which cited numerous other studies. You ignored it.

Where? And it better be a study about videogames and not some extrapolation from theories about TV.

That's your point; we can't do anything about sexism because it's too important to American capitalism.

Assuming i'm American.

So now your argument is that "yes, it is sexism" but it's good sexism? Or is it that the whole world is sexist so we needn't bother addressing the problem? Or is it that something is morally acceptable based on popular appeal?

Sex based targeting is fine. If it's not than no targeting is. If none is ok you're basically living under the assumption every person who sells is part of a problem. It must be harsh in your head :|

That is how it works, you demanded evidence that sexist portrayals in media can be harmful and I cited an essay on the topic. The phrase "x doesn't occur in a vacuum" is a truism that essentially means x has an effect on society. It must, because people are influenced by the media they consume and people make-up a society. As an example I provided that most portrayals of black men and women of all colors are negative, that must have some effect on how people view both because it is known that media is one way to inform a society.

I don't care about the media. I care about VG's. An ad for a diet product is not the same as GTA IV.

Your arguments need to have applicability beyond a simple counter to Raven, or else they're unsound. You cannot ask me to ignore your argument with Raven and pretend as if you don't believe those things that you already admitted to me that you believe. Also, I don't care if you take me seriously because I don't take you seriously.

No they do not. What is this silly notion that an argument against one point must also work against a totally different one?!

 

[CloudAtlas]

Games don't need less fanservice, they need more MANSERVICE!

Yeah! lets go drink our manly Dr. Pepper 10 and spray ourselves with ax before we put in [insert manly game here]! Manly men gaming. Bro-five!

I meant it as in fanservice for women, hot shirtless guys, ass cam with men as the focus, more than one male character design etc. Then again since you have no problem with character design or role you could still enjoy the game for the gameplay

Although that might have a nice educational effect, I'd still strongly prefer less female sexualization to more male sexualization.

I don't like that because it's taking away something from someone else. If you want better written or more realistic female characters, I'd agree. Even male characters could benefit from better writing and help make games better and there would be less of a need to sexualize everything to get people's attention.

A fair share of female gamers is offended by the frequent and cheap sexualization of their gender. I don't like it either, for many a reason, and I'm happy to fight for our common cause. But if a woman thinks the solution to the issue is to inflict the same annoyance upon men just to pander to to her own taste, then, sorry, she's no ally of mine.

 

[TehCookie]

Games don't need less fanservice, they need more MANSERVICE!

Yeah! lets go drink our manly Dr. Pepper 10 and spray ourselves with ax before we put in [insert manly game here]! Manly men gaming. Bro-five!

I meant it as in fanservice for women, hot shirtless guys, ass cam with men as the focus, more than one male character design etc. Then again since you have no problem with character design or role you could still enjoy the game for the gameplay

Although that might have a nice educational effect, I'd still strongly prefer less female sexualization to more male sexualization.

I don't like that because it's taking away something from someone else. If you want better written or more realistic female characters, I'd agree. Even male characters could benefit from better writing and help make games better and there would be less of a need to sexualize everything to get people's attention.

A fair share of female gamers is offended by the frequent and cheap sexualization of their gender. I don't like it either, for many a reason, and I'm happy to fight for our common cause. But if a woman thinks the solution to the issue is to inflict the same annoyance upon men just to pander to to her own taste, then, sorry, she's no ally of mine.

Isn't pandering to your own taste exactly what you're doing? Why can't there be different games pander to different people's taste? If you're offended by sexy girls I'd suggest attacking porn first because they do it way more than games.

 

[CloudAtlas]

Games don't need less fanservice, they need more MANSERVICE!

Yeah! lets go drink our manly Dr. Pepper 10 and spray ourselves with ax before we put in [insert manly game here]! Manly men gaming. Bro-five!

I meant it as in fanservice for women, hot shirtless guys, ass cam with men as the focus, more than one male character design etc. Then again since you have no problem with character design or role you could still enjoy the game for the gameplay

Although that might have a nice educational effect, I'd still strongly prefer less female sexualization to more male sexualization.

I don't like that because it's taking away something from someone else. If you want better written or more realistic female characters, I'd agree. Even male characters could benefit from better writing and help make games better and there would be less of a need to sexualize everything to get people's attention.

A fair share of female gamers is offended by the frequent and cheap sexualization of their gender. I don't like it either, for many a reason, and I'm happy to fight for our common cause. But if a woman thinks the solution to the issue is to inflict the same annoyance upon men just to pander to to her own taste, then, sorry, she's no ally of mine.

Isn't pandering to your own taste exactly what you're doing? Why can't there be different games pander to different people's taste? If you're offended by sexy girls I'd suggest attacking porn first because they do it way more than games.

Oh, my demands are anything but selfless. Yet, my position is informed by many notions that have not always been my own.

I'd just find it a bit hypocritical if someone complained about the sexualization of his/her gender, yet demanded the same thing for the other.

 

[TehCookie]

Games don't need less fanservice, they need more MANSERVICE!

Yeah! lets go drink our manly Dr. Pepper 10 and spray ourselves with ax before we put in [insert manly game here]! Manly men gaming. Bro-five!

I meant it as in fanservice for women, hot shirtless guys, ass cam with men as the focus, more than one male character design etc. Then again since you have no problem with character design or role you could still enjoy the game for the gameplay

Although that might have a nice educational effect, I'd still strongly prefer less female sexualization to more male sexualization.

I don't like that because it's taking away something from someone else. If you want better written or more realistic female characters, I'd agree. Even male characters could benefit from better writing and help make games better and there would be less of a need to sexualize everything to get people's attention.

A fair share of female gamers is offended by the frequent and cheap sexualization of their gender. I don't like it either, for many a reason, and I'm happy to fight for our common cause. But if a woman thinks the solution to the issue is to inflict the same annoyance upon men just to pander to to her own taste, then, sorry, she's no ally of mine.

Isn't pandering to your own taste exactly what you're doing? Why can't there be different games pander to different people's taste? If you're offended by sexy girls I'd suggest attacking porn first because they do it way more than games.

Oh, my demands are anything but selfless. Yet, my position is informed by many notions that have not always been my own.

I'd just find it a bit hypocritical if someone complained about the sexualization of his/her gender, yet demanded the same thing for the other.

I'd rather stick to my own wants than join some regime fighting a war against fanservice since that's how you make it sound.

Also I'm glad I'm not a hypocrite in your eyes

 

[captnb2thep]

One of the biggest problems I have with all these sexism in games are arguments is; what the hell do you want me to do about it? What specific action do you want me, personally, to take to try and fix these things? Letter writing campaigns to devs? Boycotting products? What is to be done?

This.

I only skimmed most of this thread, so excuse me if I missed things. But can someone who is strongly for changing the representation of women in media give me a legitimate, reasonable answer to this question?^^

I feel like the point of these discussions is to RAISE AWARENESS. Well I am completely aware, now what? I am very aware that these "tropes" and poor portrayals exist and I do my best to discuss them with my friends as well, but it often doesn't stop me from ENJOYING the media that contains it, however it may lessen my opinion of it to a certain extent. I am all for improving the portrayal of women and just equal rights in general, but I guess I'm lost on how discussing it with other gamers is going to help the issue. We don't make the games.

Do we need a million woman march on Washington? I am not being facetious or sarcastic at all, I am completely serious. The only thing that will influence action to the people who ACTUALLY play a part in it is going to be big extravagant gestures that garner a lot of attention. A heated escapist discussion doesn't accomplish that if you REALLY want a change. But if you are just in favor of stimulating conversation and debate, by all means, continue as you were.

 

[CloudAtlas]

I'd rather stick to my own wants than join some regime fighting a war against fanservice since that's how you make it sound.

Also I'm glad I'm not a hypocrite in your eyes

Uhm, you're welcome.

Well, if you learn, at some point, that, say, quite a few women are bothered by chainmail bikinis, and then you start noticing them frequently yourself, and then you start being bothered by them yourself, how do you know if your want is yor own, or the result of your empathy towards the wants of others?

But it's true, I'm generally not very fond of fanservice, because it often bites with good storytelling. That said, my "war" is never directed at the group of games that tends to come with the most fanservice, Japanese games, because, for the most part, games from there are not for me anyway.

 

[TehCookie]

I'd rather stick to my own wants than join some regime fighting a war against fanservice since that's how you make it sound.

Also I'm glad I'm not a hypocrite in your eyes

Uhm, you're welcome.

Well, if you learn, at some point, that, say, quite a few women are bothered by chainmail bikinis, and then you start noticing them frequently yourself, and then you start being bothered by them yourself, how do you know if your want is yor own, or the result of your empathy towards the wants of others?

But it's true, I'm generally not very fond of fanservice, because it often bites with good storytelling. That said, my "war" is never directed at the group of games that tends to come with the most fanservice, Japanese games, because, for the most part, games from there are not for me anyway.

Is it your feelings or you supporting someone else? They can point out things you agree with you can change your mind, opinions don't have to be set in stone.

I hate any kind of fanservice in serious games, it completely ruins the mood for me. I never considered that a problem with fanservice itself, but with the writing. Fanservice in a fanservice game doesn't bother me, that's what the game is there for. If I don't like it that also makes it easy to avoid. However my favorite games are those cheesy Japanese games where fanservice does fit in so I would like some for both sexes.

 

[ShinyCharizard]

I still don't have a fucking clue what the issue is here. Why do people care so much about the artstyle in these games? How does it possibly affect anyone negatively at all?

Frankly anyone who seriously finds this kind of thing offensive needs to fucking reconsider their priorities in life.

If someone complaining about it 'needs to fucking reconsider their priorities in life', what about someone complaining about people complaining? After all, how would a change 'possibly affect anyone negatively at all'?

I'm not referring to people who are complaining about it. I'm referring to people who claim to actually find it offensive. Being offended over some cartoon characters in a video game is fucking stupid.

 

[CloudAtlas]

Is it your feelings or you supporting someone else? They can point out things you agree with you can change your mind, opinions don't have to be set in stone.

I guess what I tried to get at was that it's not always easy to distinguish between what is truly my own want and what are the internalized wants of others.

For example, I've always been a fan of dark, gritty worlds, worlds that feel "real". And if those worlds are fantasy worlds, women tend to be treated badly. The Witcher 2 comes to mind here, where, for example, some guy in a bar jokes about beating up his wife. Now you can defend this portrayal with, well, historically women usually did have it badly, so that's just realistic, and I guess that's true. And I would always have defended those games for this very reason.

But some day, I read some article by a woman that, guess what, women who play games want to fulfill their power fantasies too, they want their escapist experiences too, just like men, and it sort of doesn't really help much if you're constantly reminded that you're just a 2nd class person because of your gender, and that you have to listen to the same sexist shit in the game as they already have to all day long in their real life.

And I realized that I had never considered that, I genuinely didn't. Feels stupid to admit, as it shouldn't really stretch one's imagination all that much. But personal experiences like this one also give me hope that a lot of the guys who don't seem to understand what all this fuzz is about, that they genuinely don't, that they would be more supportive if they actually learned more about the issues. Which is, unfortunately, and admittedly, really hard to do, in this heated atmosphere, with everyone pointing fingers at you.

But I digress. Not that this whole post wouldn't be anything else in the first place... Anyway, so now, when I play such a game, I'm split. I kinda like this gritty world on the one hand, but on the other, I started to notice this casual sexism displayed by its characters, and it started to kinda bother me. Like, immediately, not in hindsight because I'm such a feminist now. And I started to wonder whether this was really necessary, at the potential cost of diminishing the enjoyment of the game for a fair share of its female audience, whether you couldn't have toned it down and still told a dark tale.

Now I wonder, to which extent is my partial dislike of this casual sexism due to my own want, and to what part to the externalized wants of others? Not that it really matters much, I guess, but for judging the selfishness of my demands.

 

[Depulcator]

I just can't make myself care anymore. It's the same points, by the same people, in the same format. People have chosen their sides and cannot be swayed otherwise. So you guys keep on re-hashing the same points, I'm gonna go play and enjoy my games. Or you could always....Just not play the games that offend you....nah.

captcha: background noise....All it is to me now.

 

[TehCookie]

Is it your feelings or you supporting someone else? They can point out things you agree with you can change your mind, opinions don't have to be set in stone.

I guess what I tried to get at was that it's not always easy to distinguish between what is truly my own want and what are the internalized wants of others.

For example, I've always been a fan of dark, gritty worlds, worlds that feel "real". And if those worlds are fantasy worlds, women tend to be treated badly. The Witcher 2 comes to mind here, where, for example, some guy in a bar jokes about beating up his wife. Now you can defend this portrayal with, well, historically women usually did have it badly, so that's just realistic, and I guess that's true. And I would always have defended those games for this very reason.

But some day, I read some article by a woman that, guess what, women who play games want to fulfill their power fantasies too, they want their escapist experiences too, just like men, and it sort of doesn't really help much if you're constantly reminded that you're just a 2nd class person because of your gender, and that you have to listen to the same sexist shit in the game as they already have to all day long in their real life.

And I realized that I had never considered that, I genuinely didn't. Feels stupid to admit, as it shouldn't really stretch one's imagination all that much. But personal experiences like this one also give me hope that a lot of the guys who don't seem to understand what all this fuzz is about, that they genuinely don't, that they would be more supportive if they actually learned more about the issues. Which is, unfortunately, and admittedly, really hard to do, in this heated atmosphere, with everyone pointing fingers at you.

But I digress. Not that this whole post wouldn't be anything else in the first place... Anyway, so now, when I play such a game, I'm split. I kinda like this gritty world on the one hand, but on the other, I started to notice this casual sexism displayed by its characters, and it started to kinda bother me. Like, immediately, not in hindsight because I'm such a feminist now. And I started to wonder whether this was really necessary, at the potential cost of diminishing the enjoyment of the game for a fair share of its female audience, whether you couldn't have toned it down and still told a dark tale.

Now I wonder, to which extent is my partial dislike of this casual sexism due to my own want, and to what part to the externalized wants of others? Not that it really matters much, I guess, but for judging the selfishness of my demands.

One question people need to ask, is fanservice sexist? Take Elizabeth from Bioshock Infinite, is she exploited and sexist before the devs shrank her boobs? I never played it so I don't know if she rubbed them in the camera, but I didn't think their size was an issue. They weren't even comically huge like plenty of others, but would it be more sexist if they were? Bayonetta is super sexualized, but she's also a powerful woman so does that make it okay?

Everyone has a different line for that and mine is pretty far out. It does get drawn with games like The Witcher 2. Beating your wife is just plain sexist, I don't care of it's world building and if someone is turned on by that they are a sick person. I heard about the card collection and didn't like it but with games like that I just go that's not for me and play something else. If I feel the rest of the experience will outweigh the bad I'll play it.

Also why can't women enjoy escapist adventures as men? The question could be turned around as well to ask why men have an aversion to playing women. I don't have that dissonance when playing either gender so I don't understand either.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

No, it isn't. It just isn't. If it was, this topic wouldn't exist.
The gaming industry barely caters to women, period, and it'll go so far as show women in some of the most degrading clothing as possible. Yeah, there's guys shirtless, and in loin cloths, but when was the last time you saw one in a bannana hammock, and little else, and how often? Or wearing improbable clothes that just barely covers erogenous zones?

No it's not. Stop generalizing the gaming industry's targeting in one segment to their tactics in general.

And I wouldn't call skimpy clothing "degrading" maybe i just listened to the slut walk too much. But if women are trying to fight against this preconception, i'd say i'm the on the right track.

And again we don't see it being done with men because that's not what their consumers want. You won't see a lot of bikinis and extremely short shorts in the male clothing segment either.

It's incredibly unfair that you pick a clothing store for guys as an example, especially when we both know full well that there's shops for women as much as men. Stores will often have sections where there's areas for men's, and women's clothing. That goes to show just how much catering the clothing industry does for both genders.
I'm not asking for -that- degree of catering from the game industry, but I'd like more than they do now.

And everyone should know there are gaming segments who don't focus as much on men. So it's still pretty much the same.

A man being into skirts? I'm sure the kilt industry exists. I'm sure there's a lot of transvestite clothing, too.

Yes and unless they live in Scotland good luck finding skirts for men. Less likely than finding a AAA violent VG with a female protagonist who doesn't just wear a bikini.

All marketing is -not- equal. Lets take my clothing example. I've NEVER seen a "women's aisle" in a videogames store, nor a game store catering solely to them. I've never even heard of a game company that caters solely to them!

And yes the targeting is more subtle in gaming. Heck if anything that tells us it's less sexist than the clothing industry. At least they aren't telling you "you're not supposed to play this".

The AAA of clothing caters to -both- genders. Individual companies may not, but there's enough diversity among them that the AAA clothing industry hardly leaves people wanting.

Depends who. I'm willing to bet there are men who wish there was more AAA women's clothes aimed at men and vice versa. When you're in a niche market that's what happens.

Pretending the game industry is on par with the clothing industry with it's inclusiveness is something I can't comprehend.

You're right, it's less inclusive because it clearly says who should buy what. Games don't.

What's inclusive? How about not alienating the potential market of women who game?
I wonder when the last attempt to invite women into violent gaming was?

Women who want to play games aren't alienated. Otherwise games really fail at what they're trying to do, with the female segment growing and all. However one specific game segment does, the AAA violent VG segment, because there the segment is much smaller than the male one. Niche demand gets Niche supply.

Dragon's crown pretty much nails it as an example of women in skimpy clothing in degrading situations. Personally, I'm not terribly bothered, but, having empathy, and sympathy, I understand why people are.
There's a scene where you can run a cursor over a bound woman in clothes that are pretty close to see through, and click to make her squirm. I mean, really?

Oh, and porn games!

And games where women's clothes get destroyed.

I'm not going to stop generalizing the gaming industry for what it's doing, because in general, that -is- what they're doing!
You may as well ask me to stop generalizing sheep for bleating, and growing wool.
And just like your dismissal of kilts for being very local, I'm dismissing very very small, very localized examples where they don't focus on the guys.

Targeting is so subtle, infact, I have to troll the web for sparse examples! And have help! It'd be nice if these wonderous games that I want were in gaming magazines often, and so forth.

More men that wish women's clothing was made for men? Eddie Izzard, and Prince manage. So did the glam rockers, like Twisted Sister! And countless transvestites, be they for lifestyle, or acts, or both, etc.
Like women trying to get into gaming, they'll put up with the general sausage fest, but only for so long, I'd imagine. Delaying aknowlegement of guys who want to wear women's clothing, and people who want female protagonists that aren't shallow sexual icons will only end in detriment.

I'll grant you that game stores, and games don't tell you who should buy what(for the most part) like clothes stores, but I think we both can agree clothing is marketed more generously between the genders as is a lot of things.

Well, I look forward to the day when it's not "niche" anymore to pander to guys so much that it's a detriment to female protagonists.