Poll: Are dating games misogynistic?

[LilithSlave]

I have had nothing to do with the genre, and I have not played the game, but is that not Catherine? At least in general story and not gameplay?

Not quite but it's... close in some ways.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

I have had nothing to do with the genre, and I have not played the game, but is that not Catherine? At least in general story and not gameplay?

Not quite but it's... close in some ways.

See, I think Catherine's a good example since it's like a dating game but at the same time doesn't feel misogynistic since both K/Catherines are fairly realistic as far as they can be given that one's a

Spoiler

demon from hell

and makes a point of calling out all the men who are cheating douchebags. Which is GOOD but it also shows most of the women in it as being very posessive and keen to put a ring on it. Except Erica

Spoiler

who's probably the most interesting view in a game about gender relations since she's post-op

But yeah, Otome games stand out, shows dating games as a genre aren't misogynistic. They might be sexist but they don't hate women.

Sorry for the Spoilers but didn't want to ruin it for anyone who hasn't played the game >_>

 

[Deadyawn]

I can't really speak with a great deal of authority here(considering I haven't actually played any) but I think that its difficult to judge these sorts of things without having tried them yourself. I mean, how do you know what they're like if you haven't played them? Maybe they aren't so bad.
That just got me thinking, I wonder if there are any dating simulators for women. I cerainly haven't heard of any, although I don't really know much about this stuff.

 

[General Twinkletoes]

They're not inherently misogynistic. Some are, some aren't.

Most of the ones I've seen have been, though

 

[MetalMagpie]

As a general concept, no more than women's magazines that treat men as problems to be solved!

Actual article titles I have seen:
"Top Ten Tips for Catching the Man of Your Dreams (and keeping him once you've got him!)"
"Get His Attention: The Style Tips That make Him Take a Second Look"
"Stop Him Straying: The 5 Essential Rules for Keeping Your Man Loyal"

And a fantastic article (that I can't remember the title of) which advised using "simple, straight-forward language" when talking to your man (presumably to stop his caveman brain overheating) and to "remember to praise him" if he does something well (like remembering to take the bins out). Because being in a relationship has a lot in common with training a dog. Right?

Going back to dating games specifically: It would depend on the content.

 

[Snowbell]

I don't think they are, but I would love to see more visual romance novels aimed at women.

 

[Kahunaburger]

As a general concept, no more than women's magazines that treat men as problems to be solved!

Actual article titles I have seen:
"Top Ten Tips for Catching the Man of Your Dreams (and keeping him once you've got him!)"
"Get His Attention: The Style Tips That make Him Take a Second Look"
"Stop Him Straying: The 5 Essential Rules for Keeping Your Man Loyal"

And a fantastic article (that I can't remember the title of) which advised using "simple, straight-forward language" when talking to your man (presumably to stop his caveman brain overheating) and to "remember to praise him" if he does something well (like remembering to take the bins out). Because being in a relationship has a lot in common with training a dog. Right?

This is something that drives me up the wall about that sort of magazine, no matter what gender it's written for. What I've seen of dating games definitely gives me a similar creepy vibe, as does the Bioware sort of in-game romance.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Some do some don't (and it is done on both genders), pick your flavor and go at it, or alternatively try the real thing ... much better graphics

As for your friend, she seems to have fallen out of the ignorance three and hit every branch on the way down.
Because everyone is trying to figure out everyone else, and it is never gender limited she just likes to see it that way.

 

[Weaver]

We we talking about actual dating sims or romantic visual novels?
Actual dating sims are pretty awful, IMO.

 

[MetalMagpie]

I don't think they are, but I would love to see more visual romance novels aimed at women.

Well, the traditional words-on-paper romance novels are almost all aimed at women. I wonder if there's a trend that women generally prefer using their imagination (e.g. prompted by reading a book) over viewing images.

 

[Chemical Alia]

I imagine they can be pretty sexist, creepy, and possibly retarded at times, but I wouldn't say that's the same thing as a deliberately misogynistic game. I'm no expert on dating simulators, why the hell would I ever play one of those in the first place? I'm not a guy and I hate "romance".

 

[orangeban]

They certainly can be pretty shady, the whole of issue of getting a girl being "winning" and not getting one being "failing", the idea that if you just have the right stats and say the right things, you must get a girlfriend! It's all a little creepy and objectifying (and some of the really bad ones are just horrifying (and hilarious)).

 

[Snowbell]

Well, the traditional words-on-paper romance novels are almost all aimed at women. I wonder if there's a trend that women generally prefer using their imagination (e.g. prompted by reading a book) over viewing images.

I think it's more that in our culture, men would be looked down on for indulging in 'erotic literature' whereas it's commonplace for women due to long established boundries. However, in Japan there is less sex and more indulgence in the fantasising of the anime media, why hardly any of it as aimed at women is, I presume because their culture views the women as less sexually interested, hence why there's less sex overall.

Maybe I'm just talking out of my hat here :|

As for myself, I've never been interested in reading a book about two people having sex, just as I'm not interested in watching two people have sex (porn) because I'm not a sexual person. I like that visual novels let you make your own decisions, but the fact that so many of them have sex as part of the story really puts me off

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I don't really like them that much especially if they are the only thing about the game. Makes women out like they are pokemon to be collected or something.

They are almost always aimed at men too with no male options present. That kind of says to me that the people making the game think that only straight men play videogames or something.

They certainly can be pretty shady, the whole of issue of getting a girl being "winning" and not getting one being "failing", the idea that if you just have the right stats and say the right things, you must get a girlfriend! It's all a little creepy and objectifying (and some of the really bad ones are just horrifying (and hilarious)).

I think this posts describes my unease it with it quite well.

 

[Risingblade]

What would you call the male versions then?

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

I don't think women are depicted as trophies to be "won" but rather as puzzles to be solved. I think that's a charming depiction of the reality of the situation from the guy's point of view. We feel that there's always a chance, even if the girl is a supermodel and we're 300 pounds and broke as hell, if only we play our cards right it's possible.


This sort of innate mentality is present in those games and it actually mirrors quite a bit of what men experience in real life, albeit with an actual guarantee that the girl is winnable.

Yes, there are Otome games.

I think that there are a lot of themes in them which are sexist. There's definitely problems in the genres. Loads, really. Some of it is just laziness with the genre.

Dating games aren't all the exact same, though. And there's nothing wrong with the concept. Can one honestly argue the concept of games revolving around dating and romance are worse than games about violence?

Honestly, they ought to go down the Love Plus route, but better. It'd be nice to see a game about not only romance, but realistic and interesting romance that is a somewhat beautified version of a real life marriage. A lot of Japanese people feel they would like a wife but feel they cannot have one. And a lot of people seem so attached to idols and fictional characters they act almost as if they are dating partners.

You would think someone would find the time and effort to actually put this into a game. Heck, I would play that. It would be interesting to see a game do an amazing job of portraying love and marriage.

I disagree with this.


Just like how I don't want my fighting game to be a realistic MMA depiction but I want fireballs and dragon-themed attacks and super speedy and stylish moves to be the norm, just like how I like the sword-fighting in my games to make the nearby MOUNTAINS feel nervous when blades are drawn, just like how I want my sci-fi to not be star treck but a story about drilling through the heavens so do I not want my romance games to be about mundane realistic real-relationship bullshit.


Fantasy, escapism and unattainable situations, those are the good things in games, ALL kinds of games.


Now, I don't support actually giving up on real life relationships or what have you for those things like how those Japanese people you mention have but at the same time I'd have zero interest in playing a game with "realistic relationship" as it's push point.


I want my dating events in games to be like those persona social link events! Full with cheesy over the top lines and hilarious!

 

[MetalMagpie]

Well, the traditional words-on-paper romance novels are almost all aimed at women. I wonder if there's a trend that women generally prefer using their imagination (e.g. prompted by reading a book) over viewing images.

I think it's more that in our culture, men would be looked down on for indulging in 'erotic literature' whereas it's commonplace for women due to long established boundries. However, in Japan there is less sex and more indulgence in the fantasising of the anime media, why hardly any of it as aimed at women is, I presume because their culture views the women as less sexually interested, hence why there's less sex overall.

Maybe I'm just talking out of my hat here :|

As for myself, I've never been interested in reading a book about two people having sex, just as I'm not interested in watching two people have sex (porn) because it doesn't involve me. Even when the stories are Mary Sues, I'd rather play a visual novel because I can make my own decisions there and choose my own characters etc.

So it's considered "normal" for women to like erotic literature and men to like porn. Makes sense. And you may be right about the view in Japan.

Personally, watching sex scenes in films/animation/games etc. makes me feel quite awkward (especially if any of the actors/characters look into the camera). Whereas I'll admit to quite liking erotic lit. There's something more private (and more intimate) about a medium where I supply the images.

So visual novels aren't exactly "my bag", but there's got to be a market for ones aimed at women.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Well, the traditional words-on-paper romance novels are almost all aimed at women. I wonder if there's a trend that women generally prefer using their imagination (e.g. prompted by reading a book) over viewing images.

I think it's more that in our culture, men would be looked down on for indulging in 'erotic literature' whereas it's commonplace for women due to long established boundries. However, in Japan there is less sex and more indulgence in the fantasising of the anime media, why hardly any of it as aimed at women is, I presume because their culture views the women as less sexually interested, hence why there's less sex overall.

Maybe I'm just talking out of my hat here :|

As for myself, I've never been interested in reading a book about two people having sex, just as I'm not interested in watching two people have sex (porn) because it doesn't involve me. Even when the stories are Mary Sues, I'd rather play a visual novel because I can make my own decisions there and choose my own characters etc.

So it's considered "normal" for women to like erotic literature and men to like porn. Makes sense. And you may be right about the view in Japan.

Personally, watching sex scenes in films/animation/games etc. makes me feel quite awkward (especially if any of the actors/characters look into the camera). Whereas I'll admit to quite liking erotic lit. There's something more private (and more intimate) about a medium where I supply the images.

So visual novels aren't exactly "my bag", but there's got to be a market for ones aimed at women.

Actually, the above isn't entirely accurate. There's a whole genre of anime/manga called yaoi which is entirely based on women customers. Women in Japan fetishize male homosexuality actually and that genre is full of it so it is definitely NOT the cup of green tea that the average heterosexual porn-consumer would go for...but heterosexual women eat that stuff up!


There's also the visual kei bands, which is like the idols but for women. They're smaller but they exist.

 

[Danny Ocean]

My friend and I were having a discussion today about dating games. She said that because dating games portray women as things to be "won", it objectifies women. She said that it portrays women as a problem for men to overcome. I took the stance that they are probably not misogynistic because they don't actively "hate" women. The discussion got me thinking though, do dating games objectify women?

If dating games are misogyny then Twilight and assorted spicy books are misandry.

Wow, that word wasnt even in the dictionary. Knowledge time, chrome!

It's called misandry, from the Greek, literally, hatred of men.

"Misandry (IPA [mɪ.ˈsæn.dri]) is the hatred of men. The word comes from misos (Greek μίσος, "hatred") + andras (Greek ἀνδρας, "man"). Although misandry is sometimes confused with misanthropy, the terms are not interchangeable, since the latter refers to the hatred of humanity. An idea related to misandry is androphobia, the fear of men (male humans), but not necessarily the hatred of them."

Causes of misandry

Misandry is usually, but not exclusively, associated with women although men can also hold misandric views. Misandry is discussed less frequently than misogyny, and is also less understood, there is increasing research into and discussion about the topic. However, according to pioneering researchers Nathanson and Young (2001), "misandry in popular culture remains a dark secret" and "gender watchdogs" use a double standard that exposes the evils of mysogyny but is "notably silent" about even the existence of misandry. They assert that "unlike misogyny, misandry is still generally unrecognized as a problem".

Nathanson and Young believe that the gynocentric use of the word "gender" as a tool to blame all men "as those who created the problem of "gender" in the first place" form the root assumptions for modern misandry. To Nathanson and Young, this has meant that men are society's official scapegoats responsible for all evil, women are society's offical victims responsible for all good, and that men must be penalized and women compensated collectively for crimes against women throughout history. They believe that underlying "gender" as social construct are core assumptions that "the end justifies the means", and that "collective rights trump individual rights".

Nathanson and Young (2001) assert that the roots of misandry can be found in 'ideological', (as opposed to other forms of) feminism. They believe that 'political correctness', academic deconstructionism and what they call "fronts" are strategies used by feminist ideologues to "make the world safe" for promoting a misandric worldview. They posit that underlying ideological feminism is "an ideology derived from Marxism and romanticism but with class or nation replaced by gender as the central concept" to perpetrate the intolerant hatred of men as a class.

Some feminists and masculists posit that the "war of the sexes" arising from traditional gender roles and their breakdown are the primary source of both misogyny and misandry.[citation needed]

Some masculists maintain that misandry has been endemic since the 1980s (Nathanson & Young, 2001, p. 234) stemming from the spread of anti-male feminist advocacy in popular culture, and thus assert that misandry has become a social pathology. Some feminists, however, controversially claim that misogyny is a verifiable social disease, but misandry may not exist at all (Nathanson & Young, 2001, p. 18].

[edit] Types of misandrists

* Male feminists or what Nathanson and Young call "honorary women" who self-righteously defend women from men to seek favor from women.
* Ideological feminists who see all men as evil brutes and all women as 'good' human beings
* Women who justify misandry is a legitimate "choice" for women or a "voice" for those who have been "silenced."
* Women who justify misandry as an expedient for political purposes.
* Women who justify misandry with "something far more sinister in mind: revenge".

Many of the quotes listed in the section below from famous feminist misandrists contain one or more of the types of misandry.

[edit] Types of misandry

Nathan and Young noted the following types of man-hating behavior in Spreading Misandry (2001):

* Laughing at Men: The Last of Vaudeville
* Looking Down on Men: Separate but Unequal
* Bypassing men: Women Alone Together
* Blaming Men: A History of Their Own
* Dehumanizing Men: From Bad Boys to Beasts
* Demonizing Men: The Devil is a Man

[edit] Degrees of misandry

Misandry may be exhibited to differing degrees. In its most overt expression, a misandrist openly hates all men simply because they are 'men', exhibiting 'masculine' traits that are not to the speaker's liking. Stereotypically, these 'masculine' traits include machismo, emotional bluntness, and a loutish demeanor. Or, a misandrist might simply hate men for a perceived common physical attribute, such as large muscles, a large gut, or copious body hair.

Other forms of misandry are more subtle. Some misandrists simply hold all men under suspicion, or hate men who do not conform to one or more acceptable categories. Entire cultures may be said to be misandrist if they treat men in ways that are perceived hurtful. Misandry is often not recognised, since it exists under many different guises, disguised and qualified. {Judith Levine, 'My Enemy, My Love', 1992}

Misandry is a negative attitude towards men as a group, and as such need not fully determine a misandrist's attitude towards each individual man. The fact that someone holds misandrist views may not prevent them from having positive relationships with some men. Conversely, simply having positive relationships with some men does not necessarily mean someone does not also hold misandrist views.

 

[Cheesepower5]

Quite the contrary, I think they really like women. They might have a few big misconceptions about them, though, depending what game we're talking about.