Poll: Are humans inherently good or bad?

Quazimofo

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So this is something that people have been debating for centuries, and never can a conclusive answer be reached. Now, I'm not trying to convince anyone, or put down people who disagree with me, but i am just curious as to the general opinions among my fellow escapees.

As for me, I believe in the third option on the poll (Good, but some are born evil, and almost nobody is above corruption). From what I've seen in history, and news and stories contemporary and old, quite a few people get corrupted by power, and some people are just born messed up, and some people are unfortunate enough to get emotionally broken or jaded because of their life experiences.

But even still, everyone has the capacity to do the right thing, and even a desire to do so. All that holds back this world from being a great place is fear of reprisal or loss for doing what is right, and selfish tendencies that most seem to have and act on a bit too much.
 

Flamezdudes

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Humans are neither inherently good or bad. Good and bad are subjective and relative concepts and so a whole race of species cannot be inherently of either of them.
 

Quazimofo

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Flamezdudes said:
Humans are neither inherently good or bad. Good and bad are subjective and relative concepts and so a whole race of species cannot be inherently of either of them.
True, but going off of the general concept of good and bad that the majority of society accepts, do you think we are good or bad?
 

Flamezdudes

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Quazimofo said:
Flamezdudes said:
Humans are neither inherently good or bad. Good and bad are subjective and relative concepts and so a whole race of species cannot be inherently of either of them.
True, but going off of the general concept of good and bad that the majority of society accepts, do you think we are good or bad?
That's not what you asked initially as a question.

Going by your next question, i'd still say it's a mixed bag. There are plenty of details each society accepts as good and bad, some of which people are still debating about. If I went off my own personal feelings... i'm not sure.
 

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Neither, babies are born without a sense of morality, it's something that has to be learned. The majority of people by adulthood have learnt enough to live a reasonably moral life, however there are a small minority of people who don't learn this, either because they have unusually low empathy (i.e. a sociopath) or had a messed up childhood where they didn't get the opportunity to learn it properly.
 

IndomitableSam

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I would say people are inherently good, but some are born... wrong.

This comes from working with kids. Most (and this is even at the age of 2/3) are happy things that like to be happy so they do things that make others happy, too. Whether this is a social construct or not, I won't get into, but I will say that, yes, most people are born 'good'. To nature's effect of any pack animal.

That said, in nature (and that includes humans), sometimes someone is born wrong. There is no rhyme or reason, it happens to good parents, but some people are just wrong. I won't say evil as that has other connotations, be they religious or people think them murderers. Sociopaths, born without the capability to understand emotions, so they emulate them instead.

I have known one child who has given me this view on the world. Wrong is the only word I have for it. She was pretty, popular, and knew how to speak and act properly, but that girl was fucked up. She was 4, and you could see it in her eyes and realized it when her reactions to situations were just slightly off. She had to stop and consider what the proper reactions and emotions would be to situations and actively tried out different tactics to get what she wanted, whether or not they hurt someone. She didn't enjoy hurting others, but if she could get what she wanted more easily by hurting someone than not, she would.

It's hard to explain, but that kid changed my whole outlook on things. And thinking about her still scares me, even a couple years after leaving that school. She probably won't kill people when she's older, but she is going to ruin lives because she's not fully human and doesn't understand what it is to be human.
 

Saladfork

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I reject the concept of inherent 'good' or 'bad' due to the subjectivism attached to any idea of morality.

Defining whether morality is derived from motive or action alone, for example, is a subject that is still debated to this day, with decent points made for both.

Now, you could fram a question like this in terms of Hobbes vs Rousseau, which might be closer to getting you a better handle on people's opinions.

As for myself, I generally side with Rousseau (the one who coined the terms "social contact" and "tabula rasa") on things like this.
 

bojackx

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Your question is hard to answer.

We're nice compared to pretty much every other species on the Earth, with our actual understanding of morality and stuff, but I don't feel that that is what you are asking.
 

Luca72

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To go off what Flamezdudes said, humans are neither inherently good or bad. I think they vary given their circumstances.

I think that, rather than good and evil, there are two forces at work that result from human interactions - a move towards harmony, or a move towards chaos. Nature is chaotic, but not evil. In fact, nature breeds novelty out of chaos. Isolated islands force animals to interact more, rather than expand into niche territories, and this leads to initial violence. Darwin found that it also leads to much faster evolutionary adaptations. Similarly, harmonious societies don't "evolve" technologically as quickly. Native Americans had territorial conflicts, but didn't generally seek to eliminate their opposition entirely, or to integrate other tribes into themselves (the method of the Western world for excusing violence and empire building). You see a similar story in massive asian agricultural communities, which survived relatively unchanged for hundreds of years before being destroyed or absorbed by technological expansionist systems.

You can even take humans out of the equation. Every atom represents conflict - a massive, positively charged center, orbited by a tiny negatively charged particle. This is the basis for all chemical interactions, which is the basis for matter as we know it. Nothing would exist without some element of chaos.

So what's "good" then? Harmony? How does one go about creating harmony? On an individual level, harmony works - you can strive to live harmoniously with yourself and the people around you. If everyone did this, we'd probably have a bitchin', good-natured society. But we're too busy chasing money, our new evolutionary imperative, to devote much time to this. So we outsource the struggle for harmony to leaders. I personally think the most ideal society would be one under the rule of a benevolent dictator, but this is, of course, a fiction.

The problem is that you may have good leaders at first, but over time, the system gets corrupted. Money and favors influence it. We have a new problem in that the media is so widespread that we don't even try to hold our leaders accountable - we simply follow those that make us feel good. As evolved as we think we are, the average person is not that different from a an ape with very advanced language skills. Most people don't develop new ideas or fundamentally question their values (in fact, in western society this questioning is often defined as neuroses or insanity). Instead, we find the monkey who looks like he knows what he's doing, and follow him (and it's almost always a him, but that's a different topic for another day :p).

I'd recommend watching this video - it's a long one, but it goes into several psychological experiments that highlight logical fallacies that are simply a byproduct of the way the human brain works. We almost invariable suppress our individual reason in favor of supporting authority. If you don't have time to watch it, at least watch the man speaking at the end of the video, and look at how ape-like his behavior is. He conveys a sense of power, and stirs emotions in his audience. He fucking mind-controls them.


So to me, a more interesting way to look at it is "Are humans inherently lawful?". Different societies define good and bad differently, often dressing it up as written mandate. An intelligent person will always question whether the law actually serves mankind, or has some ulterior motive (or is simply outdated). And if a law sounds good, we will often follow it to the letter. Is stealing really wrong if the business you're stealing from is insured? And the insurance company itself steals from and exploits millions? And is backed by the Federal Reserve, which can continue to print money that isn't backed by any real value? Who is the victim here? Take a look at the "Drug War" to see how easily people are led into thinking something is "wrong" because authority figures tell them it is.

In my opinion, 99.99% of the most heinous acts in history are committed by people who either think they are doing the right thing, or have been brainwashed by authority figures. Good and evil don't even apply. You think every Nazi was evil to the core? Of course not. Most of the individuals thought they were in service of some greater good. The Spanish Inquisition murdered and tortured people because they believed 100% that they were saving those people from eternal damnation.

Phew, didn't think that one would run that long. Anyway, TLDR: Good and evil are simply concepts defined by authority figures. On an individual level, humans value kindness and harmony over discord. But we're monkeys, and we've survived to this point by listening to monkeys that convinced us that they have the answers. Think for yourself, take nothing for granted, and you'll make the world a better place.
 

Vegosiux

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Humans are inherently human. That's all there is to it.

Considering we invented the concepts of "good" and "bad", we can't really objectively talk about it at all.
 

Quazimofo

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Luca72 said:
Would this be considered a chop instead of a snip? because that was a huge post!
That is a very interesting viewpoint on the matter. I guess I never really considered it to be harmony or order versus chaos, at least not consciously.

It seems you have single handedly touched upon all of the major points that comprised this discussion through the years, and explained in a way better than I could in a hundred years. Also, you finally gave me a single word to sum up pretty much what I believe to be good and beneficial in this world, "harmony".

So thank you good sir, thank you for your contribution and food for thought.
 

Quazimofo

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Saladfork said:
I reject the concept of inherent 'good' or 'bad' due to the subjectivism attached to any idea of morality.

Defining whether morality is derived from motive or action alone, for example, is a subject that is still debated to this day, with decent points made for both.

Now, you could fram a question like this in terms of Hobbes vs Rousseau, which might be closer to getting you a better handle on people's opinions.

As for myself, I generally side with Rousseau (the one who coined the terms "social contact" and "tabula rasa") on things like this.
I too side with Rousseau over Hobbes in that debate, though I disagree that when people are born we are entirely a blank slate. It is something you see often in small children (who are the best demonstrators of any of these arguments, since they are the closest to the supposed blank slate that is a freshly born child). Rarely do you ever find a child who legitimately doesn't care for the feelings of other children, or who legitimately wants to cause harm to others. They only do these things because they honestly didn't notice the significant negative effects it had on the other children (be it injury, or emotional pain/frustration). A lot of the time when you want to explain to them why what they are doing is not okay, you make it clear that what they did hurt another child, and usually you can see legitimate remorse in the child for what they did. Followed by a noticeable change in behavior.

Unless I am completely wrong in these observations, but I have spent a fair amount of time dealing with children (as a part of mandatory community service for my school, which was a very interesting experience), so that is just what I have observed.
 

Drauger

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I went with true neutral XD..... really there are some specific human beings that do make me wonder but, i do believe we're nothing but the outcome of everything that happens on our lives, so yes maybe some people turn "bad" but the became that way because of the environment where they live/we're reaised.

When i read the topic title I remembered this

"If there is evil in this world, it lurks in the hearts of man."

It's from Edward D. Morrison a character from Tales of phantasia, so much wisdom comes out from a videogame XD.
 

Ryotknife

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I would say individually we are usually good (because society has shaped us to be such). Selfish...but good.

as a group we are wicked mother effers.

Course, then you go down the rabbithole of what actually is good and evil since it changes from time and place.
 

NecroNinja

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As many of you have stated, the very definition of good and evil are problematic, as these concepts vary throughout time and across different cultures. I personally observe too much bad in people when there doesn't seem to be any good reason for it. But then there are some who actively try to do what they and society see as right. It just seems to me that they are far outnumbered by those who may not necessarily be bad, but perhaps too apathetic to actively be 'good'. For that reason, I'd lean more towards bad when speaking about people generally, with glimmers of hope, because we're clearly not all that way, all of the time.

As for why; I wouldn't say we are shaped by the environment, as many people in identical circumstances can end up completely different. I have also read (although cannot currently cite, as I've forgotten the authors) studies into twins, who develop entirely different personalities, despite living pretty much the same life. My study of psychology has basically ruled out environment and genetics as the sole determining factors in how people are. The only answer is that we're a product of both, but with so much variance, it baffles the mind.
 

Luca72

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Quazimofo said:
Luca72 said:
Would this be considered a chop instead of a snip? because that was a huge post!
That is a very interesting viewpoint on the matter. I guess I never really considered it to be harmony or order versus chaos, at least not consciously.

It seems you have single handedly touched upon all of the major points that comprised this discussion through the years, and explained in a way better than I could in a hundred years. Also, you finally gave me a single word to sum up pretty much what I believe to be good and beneficial in this world, "harmony".

So thank you good sir, thank you for your contribution and food for thought.
Thanks for reading it!

NecroNinja said:
I personally observe too much bad in people when there doesn't seem to be any good reason for it. But then there are some who actively try to do what they and society see as right. It just seems to me that they are far outnumbered by those who may not necessarily be bad, but perhaps too apathetic to actively be 'good'. For that reason, I'd lean more towards bad when speaking about people generally, with glimmers of hope, because we're clearly not all that way, all of the time.
What kind of bad acts do you see people generally commit though? I find that people generally have opinions or impressions of how they "should" behave, according to what society dictates, and they behave as a compromise between that and not "stirring the pot" too much. As social animals, we generally seek a way to behave that doesn't irk the community too much.

But some of the bad stuff we do is because it's expected of us. I don't know what the female experience is like, but as a male I find constant reinforcement that we're supposed to be alpha conquerors - go-getters that put work and success ahead of kindness. It sometimes makes us act like assholes, but it means you're fulfilling the role of a "good" man. On the other hand, some 15 year-old son of an Afghan farmer picks up an assault rifle because he's afraid for the safety of his family. In the US, we look at that kid as a "bad" guy.

Interesting point about "actively doing good" though. A lot of people have good intentions, but don't necessarily spread good throughout the world. I don't know that not doing good makes one bad, but maybe being aware of the fact that you could be doing good and neglecting to act is actually a bad act?
 

Quazimofo

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Vault101 said:
Quazimofo said:
*sigh* are animals inherently good or bad? morality doesnt apply to nature
But one could also make the argument that humans have transcended nature to an extent, due to our advanced (compared to other animals) cognitive abilities, and so allow for some things that apply to nature to not apply to us, as well as causing some things that dont apply to nature to apply to us (since when did you see a wolf get attacked or ostracized for killing a deer more than they should have?).

So yeah, perhaps it IS a tired old discussion, perhaps it has been repeated a few too many times, but that does not invalidate it completely. Also, with new generations (IE me, since I am but a teenager), sometimes these arguments are worth refreshing, for the sake of new perspective or just to teach the old ones.
 

Vault101

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Quazimofo said:
but we arent good or evil...we are all just a bunch of behaviours...compassion, empathy, selfishness, hate, predjudice

all have their origin in nature and all work to some function....we have emathy and compassion so we can operate in a society we also have group mentality and selfishness...all of us are inherintly selfish in some way or another which has its place in society

the question of if we are ALL good/evil is just too simple and the answer is just too complex