Poll: Are tasers tools or weapons?

JaceArveduin

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As has been said before, tools and weapons aren't complete separate classes of object.

Axes? Both tool and weapon. Same for hammers. Knives are tools and weapons. It basically boils down to the fact you can use damn near anything as a weapon. Some cotton out of a pillow? shove it down there throats and suffocate them. It all depends on how... creative you are.
 

Jodah

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A weapon is a tool so this discussion is silly. Almost any tool can be a weapon as well. The only difference between the classification for a given item is the intent of the user.

Rottweiler said:
What I find funny is this:

Before tasers- reliable ones- became commonly available, boards and forums were full of demands and moans about how Police should do everything...including risk unneeded threat to life and limb...to avoid using the only real tools they had: firearms and batons/nightsticks.

Then tasers came out, and they were hailed as the next step in non-lethal capture and control techniques, so police (the trigger-happy corrupt abusive bastards) couldn't use their nasty firearms against the poor, defenseless criminals.

...and now, *tasers* are far too dangerous! There's a chance those poor murderers might be *hurt accidentally!!!*

Seriously, we have entire threads based on such a black-and-white situation blaming the Cop, blaming the Taser, I mean...really? The Taser is a device that the public widely applauded when it first became available, and now...
Guns were treated in much the same way. They were hailed as tool that would equal the odds. Nobody should have to fear anyone else. Guns put everyone on equal footing. Now we have people trying to ban them claiming guns are the cause of all crime everywhere.

Tis the way of the world I suppose. People like new things but god help us if they have unintended consequences.
 

tsb247

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Chevalier noir said:
tsb247 said:
It's good for a laugh.
I read the post. Very little pisses me off more than the argument that "Oh the criminal doesn't want to hurt you, just steal your things and/or money." That is the ass-pull of someone who has never stepped into the real world. I'm glad you are so sure the knife armed stranger just wants to rob me, I'll just risk getting raped/murdered to keep this scumbag safe and sound.

I hardly think its funny, but I agree otherwise.
I didn't so much mean funny as in, "haha," but funny as in, "Strange and out of touch with reality," funny; a way of thinking that is laughable because it is so absurd.

But yes. I am glad to see that so many find that way of thinking... more than a little out of touch. It just doesn't make sense at all, and ends up creating (possibly dead) victims.
 

tsb247

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FelixG said:
Rottweiler said:
What I find funny is this:

Before tasers- reliable ones- became commonly available, boards and forums were full of demands and moans about how Police should do everything...including risk unneeded threat to life and limb...to avoid using the only real tools they had: firearms and batons/nightsticks.

Then tasers came out, and they were hailed as the next step in non-lethal capture and control techniques, so police (the trigger-happy corrupt abusive bastards) couldn't use their nasty firearms against the poor, defenseless criminals.

...and now, *tasers* are far too dangerous! There's a chance those poor murderers might be *hurt accidentally!!!*

Seriously, we have entire threads based on such a black-and-white situation blaming the Cop, blaming the Taser, I mean...really? The Taser is a device that the public widely applauded when it first became available, and now...
Anti-authoritarian fools will always find something to whine about.

If you get rid of guns they will whine about tazers, if you get rid of tazers they will whine about batons, if you get rid of batons they will whine about flashlights.

Then you will get some dolt to come in and go "hur hur, here in the UK our cops wear padded gloves so the criminals don't get hurt, why do american cops always gotta be so brutal using their bare hands?!"
What is terrible is that I have heard that glove issue come up in conversation before. *facepalm*

I have always seen Tasers as being preferrable to the Asp (extendable baton for the layman).

In fact, officers who use their baton are far more likely to be accused of brutality than if they use their firearm or their Taser. In the end, the Taser and/or firearm are seen as betters tools for the job. A buddy of mine who became a police officer a few years ago shared this little tid-bit with me after he finished his traing.

I also find it odd that some people get so upset with police officers for tasing people when the alternative is much worse... You know... A bullet.
 

Chevalier noir

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tsb247 said:
I also find it odd that some people get so upset with police officers for tasing people when the alternative is much worse... You know... A bullet.
Because a bullet is not the alternative. "The cop could just shoot her" Is a terrible argument.

For the last time, it was a 100 pound handcuffed perp, running away. The least dangerous option should be taken if the subject doesn't pose a serious threat to the officer or anyone else and she most certainly didn't. Shooting her for running would most definitely get the cop fired. I'm more concerned that people imply instant death (by shooting her) in this situation is acceptable use of force.
 

Weaver

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Weapons are designed to hurt people, tools are designed to aid in constructive things.
A saw can cut someone, but it's made for cutting wood.

A gun can hurt someone, but can it cut wood?

Take this metaphorically.

The problem cops have is they see tasers as non-leathal and then just figure they can use them whenever they want. They seem to equate "non-lethal" with "not hurting anyone at all under any circumstances."
 

Something Amyss

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waj9876 said:
I implied I was on the cop's side on this one, nothing more.
Except when you stated you certainly weren't on the "side" of the woman who was doing drugs. Come now.

And I know, I know. It's different in your case. It's always different.
 

Toaster Hunter

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A tool is an object for a specific purpose. A weapon is a tool to cause harm, lethal or not is irrelevant. Therefore a taser is both. The difference is semantics, nothing more.
 

waj9876

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Except when you stated you certainly weren't on the "side" of the woman who was doing drugs. Come now.
Yes. Exactly, I am not on her side. I am on the cop's side. I am taking sides, and I have no problem stating which side I am on. What's weird about this? I'm on one side, so I'm not on the other.
 

SuccessAndBiscuts

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Grey Walker said:
They are weapons, but they aren't treated with the same respect as firearms.
I was going to post this... good thing I always read a thread in its entirety first. *INTERNET TED HIGH-FIVE*
 

J Tyran

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cookyy2k said:
Prison would be cheaper and better for society.
No it is not cheaper, its by far the most expensive option. Not counting the fact that their are barely enough prison places in the first place either. The better and cheaper option for society would be to address the issues that create people like him in the first place, or at the very least sort him out so he gets his life in order.

Prison is expensive, its probably cheaper to give him his crappy benefits and put him before the courts every few weeks than to lock him up. Estimates place the cost of around £50,000 per year to keep somebody locked up in the UK. There are knock on effects to society and they cause additional cost to the state, those are pretty esoteric and complicated and are based around things like resettling the inmate after release.

Obviously he cannot go on doing what hes doing but locking him up just costs more money and causes more problems. Addressing his behaviour and lifestyle is the only real answer, and addressing the problems in the wider population.

Hence my comment about getting "tough on crime" doesn't work. If you look at the country's with low crime rates or low re-offension rights it doesn't reflect how tough they are, the opposite is often true. Where country's have uncompromising police and harsh jails it has little affect on crime, but where crime rights are low it begins with society itself in addition to how they deal with the problems.
 

Strazdas

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yourp ool is illogical becaise taser is both tool and weapon, therefore it cannot be one of them.
 

KingHodor

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cookyy2k said:
J Tyran said:
Getting "tough on crime" doesn't work, its as simple as that.
Because the slap on the wrist and a double helping of state benefits is working so well.
Unfortunately, yeah, it is.

Compare crime rates in the "harsh-on-crime" US and "soft-on-crime" Northern Europe.

You don't like the idea of criminals "comfortably" watching TV in their cells? Consider this: How do you expect them to pass the time instead? Swapping crime stories, thus making them more proficient criminals? Getting into fights, thus making them more violent? Raping each other, making them more... rapey(?), spreading STDs, or prompting them to joing a gang for protection.

The result? Countries like Denmark have a recidivism rate that's only half of that in the US or the UK.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3036450.stm
 

Dastardly

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thaluikhain said:
Is a taser something that should be used solely when suspects are threatening someone, or is it something that can be used when suspects are merely unco-operative?
The weapon/tool thing is really a false dichotomy, but you're right to boil it down to this question. And it's not an easy one.

To my mind, however, it should be acceptable to use a taser on a non-cooperative subject. When they are an actual threat to people, that is justification for the use of lethal force. Until that point, the police still need to have a very clear "or else."

There's a fundamental misunderstanding when it comes to tasers and police. I'd like to clear it up, if you'll permit:

Tasers are not primarily there to protect the subject being tased. They are there to protect the police officer.

Here's what I mean -- the common argument is that, in the case of a non-cooperative subject, the officer can wrestle them into the handcuffs, etc. (That's once we get past the hurdle of people refusing to follow instructions from the police, but there's no talking to those people.) Think about it as a police officer, and you'll see the problems. When you get in close for hand-to-hand with the subject:

1. You're putting yourself and the subject on equal footing, meaning you sacrifice a measure of control of the situation. Since you're the person legally and ethically responsible for taking control of the situation, this is a huge problem.

2. You give up your advantage of distance, meaning you open yourself to harm or injury. Since, odds are, there aren't other officers in vicinity, you're risking "abandoning your post" when you're incapacitated or injured.

3. You're putting your firearm and other weapons within arms' reach of an already-uncooperative subject. They could use it against you, or any bystander they choose. Every cop should always think as though every subject would take the gun if they could.

4. Bloodborne illness is a huge issue for cops, teachers, and medical personnel. Cops have it especially bad, since most of the time they're the most likely to be dealing with drug users, and people who are angry and combative. Every second you spend in a physical altercation with the subject is time that you could be exposing yourself to hepatitis, etc. No cop -- or human -- should have to shoulder that risk to accommodate an uncooperative subject.

5. If a subject is arrested, that's probably the last thing on his to-do list for the day. He's done. A cop, however, may need to be ready for the next threat. There may even be multiple subjects at the same incident. The cop needs a way to deal with one subject without exhausting him/herself, so that he/she can be ready to handle any emergent problems, too.

These are the kind of things that get cops treated as "lazy" pretty often... because we have this idea that just because this situation is over, the cop's day is done. Far from the case, ever. Those of us who haven't been in a lot of physical altercations are also not aware of how exhausting they can be... and also how chaotic they can get, and how hard it is to avoid injury. A subject has to undergo these risks once. The cop has to endure them every single time.
 

tsb247

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Chevalier noir said:
tsb247 said:
I also find it odd that some people get so upset with police officers for tasing people when the alternative is much worse... You know... A bullet.
Because a bullet is not the alternative. "The cop could just shoot her" Is a terrible argument.

For the last time, it was a 100 pound handcuffed perp, running away. The least dangerous option should be taken if the subject doesn't pose a serious threat to the officer or anyone else and she most certainly didn't. Shooting her for running would most definitely get the cop fired. I'm more concerned that people imply instant death (by shooting her) in this situation is acceptable use of force.
I was speaking in generalities. Not specifically relating to this situation.

However, tasing the suspect in this particular instance was not in any way out of line. She was resisting arrest, and the officer stopped her. She wasn't shackled, so for all we know, she was making a hasty retreat. Cuffed or not, the officer had a responsibility to catch her (again), and he did his job. There was no way he could possibly have foreseen that she could die as a result of her being tased. Most subjects do not die when subjected to a taser - no matter what surface they fall on. This was a fluke. It's tragic, yes, but it's really not the officer's fault. If it's anyone's fault, it's fault of the cuffed suspect for attempting to escape capture. That was NOT a smart idea on her part.