Poll: Arming the UK Police

[BGH122]

Currently the rank and file police forces of the United Kingdom are armed with CS spray (a gas which acts as an eye irritant and can cause retching, like mace) and an extendable baton. If something particularly hairy is going down then Armed Response Vehicles, or specialist CO19 squads (our version of SWAT), are deployed. However, recently the anonymous whistleblowing blogger and author 'Inspector Gadget' (a pseudonym, obviously) has called [http://inspectorgadget.wordpress.com/2011/05/18/why-uk-police-should-be-armed/] for the UK police forces to be armed with firearms as a last resort weapon to protect both the public and themselves from immediate threats. This is why and is just one such incident of many:


Currently, most EU, Asia-Pacific, Eastern and American countries have firearms issued to officers as part of their standard equipment and I think that above video makes it pretty bloody obvious why that's the case. So what are your thoughts, Escapist, on arming the police of the UK with firearms as standard issue and why?

Context: It took 20 minutes for (reportedly) 30-35 police officers to detain the man in the video above. The police had called for an Armed Response Vehicle to attend the scene, but none arrived as they were all either busy elsewhere or denied by command. By the time the filming starts, eight police officers had reportedly sprayed him directly to the face with CS spray. The man was a previously released mental patient (seriously, so much is wrong with this country). The weapon the man was wielding was a machete of between 2-3 feet in length, similar to that which was used to kill PC Keith Blakelock [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Keith_Blakelock] in 1985, after he was almost beheaded and lost multiple digits when an assailant hacked at him 8 times with a machete.

Spoiler: Options for the poll

Why have I chosen to spoiler the options rather than just sticking them in plain format? To stop people from entering the thread, clicking a poll option without watching the video and thus skewing the results:

Option one: All police should be armed at all times whilst on duty if they've passed firearms training

Option two: Police shouldn't be armed with firearms unless they're heading to a call which is particularly likely to place themselves or the public at risk and only after passing firearms training

Option three: Standard police shouldn't be armed with firearms, that should be left to a few specialist divisions such as ARVs whose sole purpose is to respond to high threat calls from ground officers

Option four: No police officer of any branch or division should be armed with firearms

 

[internetzealot1]

Cops - guns = lolwut?

They're no better than a neighborhood watch.

 

[BGH122]

1. The cop putting his arm out at the guy with the machete is dumb defense against a guy with a machete.

2. I am from NYC and am happy that all of our police have handguns, and a select corps carry AR-15 rifles.

3. That video is too f**king funny. I always joke that the NYPD could invade and take over Canada, i guess the same would be true of the UK.

1. True, but what else can he do? Run away? That's our only real option. Guess whilst we're jogging backwards we just have to hope a neighbour doesn't come out of his/her front door and take a machete to the face.

2. Wish ours did. I'd feel safer both as an MOP and police officer if I know those entrusted with our lives actually had the tools necessary to affect an arrest against a guy like this.

3. Yeah, they probably could.

Cops - guns = lolwut?

They're no better than a neighborhood watch.

Ha! Precisely.

 

[mad825]

none arrived as they were all either busy elsewhere or denied by command

..Erm, perhaps because they weren't needed?

Edit: a gun in that situation would've only resulted in death. if they needed a gun then a tazer would do better.

 

[BGH122]

I sleep well knowing these men are on the streets protecting us from danger every day.

As would I.

What's especially terrifying is that before these brave men and women managed to surround this machete-wielding madman he was wandering up and down the streets around the round about menacing the public with that machete.

none arrived as they were all either busy elsewhere or denied by command

..Erm, perhaps because they weren't needed?

Clearly that was command's opinion. Care to elucidate? In what situation would they be needed if not for a man wielding a deadly weapon with intent?

 

[erztez]

Of course cops should carry...I mean, it's pretty much the only thing that gives them an advantage over your average person. If not guns, at least tazers...though I prefer guns, tazers are too easy to abuse.

 

[Baneat]

I pick option A - Arm the police officers, legalise firearms

 

[SckizoBoy]

3. That video is too f**king funny. I always joke that the NYPD could invade and take over Canada, i guess the same would be true of the UK.

3. Yeah, they probably could.

I think the normal citizenry would put up more of a fight... since the cops will probably be doing their paperwork.

OT: Agree with Grevensher, the Met is best kitted out in that way (pistols across the board and rifle specialists).

I mean, who else finds it idiotic that the weapon that firearms units are equipped with is a fricking MP5?!

 

[mad825]

none arrived as they were all either busy elsewhere or denied by command

..Erm, perhaps because they weren't needed?

Clearly that was command's opinion. Care to elucidate? In what situation would they be needed if not for a man wielding a deadly weapon with intent?

perhaps when a man is actually wielding a med-long range weapon, like an weapon that fires projectiles.

you do not use a shotgun just to kill a goldfish.

 

[BGH122]

I pick option A - Arm the police officers, legalise firearms

I'd like gun legalisation too, but I don't see that happening any time soon in the UK. Still, gun crime has been steadily tracking upwards at 34% per year since guns were completely abolished a few decades back in the UK. Perhaps soon a judge or a politician will be executed by a gunman and then they'll get a taste of what it's like to live in Peckham or Catford.

Of course cops should carry...I mean, it's pretty much the only thing that gives them an advantage over your average person. If not guns, at least tazers...though I prefer guns, tazers are too easy to abuse.

Tazers also have a far higher fail rate than the media lets on. Currently, AFOs and SFOs (Authorised Firearms Officers and Specialist Firearms Officers respectively) are amongst the few units who routinely carry tazers, but they mainly use them to placate the IPCC (Independent Police Complaints Commission) before they go for a shot to remove the threat.

Having spoken to a few AFOs about this issue (was planning on becoming an AFO, but after seeing the horrendous amount of flack they receive and how readily their superiors hang them out to dry I changed my mind), they say that tazers routinely fail because the spacing of the prods failed to separate properly.

none arrived as they were all either busy elsewhere or denied by command

..Erm, perhaps because they weren't needed?

Clearly that was command's opinion. Care to elucidate? In what situation would they be needed if not for a man wielding a deadly weapon with intent?

perhaps when a man is actually wielding a med-long range weapon, like an weapon that fires projectiles.

you do not use a shotgun just to kill a goldfish.

So how would you have the officers at the scene detain the suspect? They're clearly unable to do so without risking grievous injury? I should also point out that the only permitted baton strike is 'to the lower leg or thigh'. Simply smashing his hands or head would be illegal.

 

[Loonyyy]

Look it up. The British police forces have the lowest officer involved shootings of most police forces, as would be expected, but they are also shot less. A reduction in guns across the board keeps people from being hurt.

 

[Baneat]

I pick option A - Arm the police officers, legalise firearms

I'd like gun legalisation too, but I don't see that happening any time soon in the UK. Still, gun crime has been steadily tracking upwards at 34% per year since guns were completely abolished a few decades back in the UK. Perhaps soon a judge or a politician will be executed by a gunman and then they'll get a taste of what it's like to live in Peckham or Catford.

I can't condone empowering the state without empowering the people.

 

[BGH122]

Look it up. The British police forces have the lowest officer involved shootings of most police forces, as would be expected, but they are also shot less. A reduction in guns across the board keeps people from being hurt.

But this strikes me as a socioeconomic fact. We also have amongst the highest social security and public health assistance in the world. Directly comparing countries on a given statistic whilst ignoring everything that lead to the statistic is duplicitous.

If the police have guns, so too should the citizens, to protect themselves from the police.

I'd be in favour of gun decriminalisation, but I can't see it happening. Why do you feel that the citizens need protection from police officers, if I may ask?

I pick option A - Arm the police officers, legalise firearms

I'd like gun legalisation too, but I don't see that happening any time soon in the UK. Still, gun crime has been steadily tracking upwards at 34% per year since guns were completely abolished a few decades back in the UK. Perhaps soon a judge or a politician will be executed by a gunman and then they'll get a taste of what it's like to live in Peckham or Catford.

I can't condone empowering the state without empowering the people.

Ideologically I agree, but a dramatic change like that isn't going to happen any time soon. That said, police officers face far greater threats than MOPs and if we're to expect them to detain people like this then how can we expect such a thing without providing the necessary tools? It's more pressing that we equip the police, but that doesn't rule out equipping MOPs too.

I mean, who else finds it idiotic that the weapon that firearms units are equipped with is a fricking MP5?!

MP5s aren't a terrible choice, honestly. Sure, they're a little dated and their accuracy isn't tremendous, but they're very lightweight and can be clipped such that they don't hinder mobility. Getting around quickly is paramount.

 

[Dogstile]

If the police can have guns, I should be able to.

 

[Nickolai77]

The two guys armed with shields could have taken him on reasonably well, still i don't blame them for being over cautious. If the police had been armed with firearms the man may well have ended up dead, if they had been armed with a taser then the situation may have been resolved quicker. Still, in the end riot police arrive and zerg rushed him, the officers did a good job containing him in the meantime.

I don't really see this as a reason to arm UK police officers, especially because in this situation the police managed to neutralise the threat without killing him. As for arming UK police officers in general, i don't really mind if they are armed or not. At the moment though i say UK police forces do fine- why fix what's not broken?

Edit: I'd just point out that according to this wikipedia page,[footnote]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom[/footnote] the UK has one of the lowest gun related homicide rates in the world, and we are below the EU average. Doing what we are doing now with regards to guns seems to be working well enough to ensure public safety.