Poll: Arming the UK Police

[Twilight_guy]

I wish we lived in a world where police didn't need to carry guns. As it is, nutjobs can get and use guns and police need to be ready. Unless your guys are really good with the CS spray (like epic wallhax type good) I can see why a call for guns might be warranted. Lock and load UK.

 

[Aetherlblade]

I think the police should be armed, but not the people. Doing that will only get more guns to criminals, and even petty criminals and thus shootings will happen more often. Also, police are trained with those guns and know where and when to shoot.
Civilians dont have that training and might kill by accident, and of course everyone knows those american stories of kids shooting themselves with their parent's guns...

so police should get their glocks or what you brits use, but hell, keep that shit from the public..

 

[spartandude]

If the police have guns, so too should the citizens, to protect themselves from the police.

i couldnt possible imagine how that could go wrong (sarcasm)

 

[ThisIsSnake]

If the police can have guns, I should be able to.

People in the UK can't have guns? I mean that is tough. In NYC it is difficult to get a firearm for everywhere carry, but you are allowed to have one in your home for protection.

We have a different situation, America had the revolution, the civil war, 1812 etc. Guns got around and it was easier to let people keep them for self defence against the other people with guns.

In the UK we haven't had any major ground wars on home soil since the civil war (with muskets and such) so we don't have a circulation of firearms. Occasionally you get a nutter with 20 under his bed or some gang violence but they don't last too long.

 

[JoJo]

If the police can have guns, I should be able to.

People in the UK can't have guns? I mean that is tough. In NYC it is difficult to get a firearm for everywhere carry, but you are allowed to have one in your home for protection.

Lack of guns for protection isn't much of issue in the UK as most criminals don't have guns either, so we're safe in that respect ;-)

OT: No, I think our police force should remain unarmed, they do a great job as they are now and handing out lethal weapons is only going to end up causing more accidents and harm than would be prevented. Leave the guns for the specially trained squads who know what they are doing.

 

[BGH122]

I'm no conspiracy nut that owns a room full of automatic weapons, or anything -- I'm gunless. But I have always held the strong belief that the people should have the ability to be as well equipped as the government they elect. Revolution mightn't seem relevant, but there may well come a time when it is needed.

But that's just my view. I can't offer any evidence or hold up my side in a debate. I just feel that way.

No, no need to backhand it. I agree with you entirely. The most dangerous government is that which has no reason to fear its people. At least, that's my motto. I can't see the police being turned against the public any time soon in the UK (we make heavy use of 'specials' across London, warranted police officers who are just MOP volunteers but with full police powers), but it's an idea that isn't wholly preposterous and one that's definitely come to pass historically in other nations.

If the police can have guns, I should be able to.

People in the UK can't have guns? I mean that is tough. In NYC it is difficult to get a firearm for everywhere carry, but you are allowed to have one in your home for protection.

One may apply to own a .22 rifle or some limited shotguns for private use (i.e. no, you mayn't have an AA-12 for 'pest control'), but it's generally declined if one lives in the city. This was due to a massive overreaction to a school shooting some years back. Dunblane was horrific tragedy, but these few isolated incidents (whilst horrendous) are heavily reported whereas crimes foiled or abandoned due to fear of armed MOP reprisal aren't.

Are you effen kidding me?
Does anyone remember Iain Tomlinson? No? Mkay....
ARV's are trained very well from what I've seen - I've never heard of them killing innocents. This is fine.

Give every EDL-member bobby boulders with a beer belly and a hatred of hippies a gun and we are up shit creek.

Also more guns in the UK means ... more guns in the UK. Look at our murder statistics, look at amuricuh's. The poliss lose things, sell things after hours and have stuff nicked from them: crack, smack, cars; let's not make it crack, smack, cars, and guns, eh?

As I mentioned farther up (no offense intended, I rarely read through too), directly comparing statistics between countries is tricky because so many other factors produce those stats. For instance, the UK has amongst the best social security and public healthcare in the world, the US barely has either. You're not going to starve or die of easily preventable disease in the UK no matter your circumstances, not so for the US.

Whilst Tomlinson's death was a tragedy and in my mind a clear abuse of police powers (the shove is acceptable if people are deliberately attempting to detain the police at a scene where MOPs are in danger, but not that hard and the baton shouldn't have even been extended, let alone used), that doesn't equate to 'all coppers are abusive and want to hurt MOPs'. How are the Police supposed to protect the public if they need to deploy their entire regional force to detain a single man? Think of all the crimes that probably occurred in those 20 minutes whilst all the officers were at one location.

Lack of guns for protection isn't much of issue in the UK as most criminals don't have guns either, so we're safe in that respect ;-)

But most criminals do carry a deadly weapon that we're currently unable to extricate without seriously endangering ourselves or the public. Organised criminals (even as loosely as gangs) do tend to carry, or be in possession of, deadly weapons.

This haul was found under, London based, 'Hoxton Boys' associate's bed last month:

 

[erztez]

Come to think of it, civilians should be allowed to pack heat too...as long as they can prove they can use it as well as the cops.
Where I live, no problem
My accuracy rating is 91, you need 70 to get a job as a cop and their average is 79

 

[Vault101]

as I understand britan has alot fo social problems, I all for it to be honest

 

[88chaz88]

Do I want armed police bullying their way through like in the US or any other third world nation?

Nope.

Keep our forces unarmed. Obviously exepting the specially trained squads.

 

[BGH122]

It is easy to get palmed off as a gun nut at the mere mention of this sort of thing. You'll have to forgive me for being coy

Sadly that's true. Not only insane militia fear government collapse/usurping and the downwards spiral into a police state.

I wish we lived in a world where police didn't need to carry guns. As it is, nutjobs can get and use guns and police need to be ready. Unless your guys are really good with the CS spray (like epic wallhax type good) I can see why a call for guns might be warranted. Lock and load UK.

Sadly, that isn't the half of it. The guy in the video was CS sprayed by eight separate officers. Lot of good that did. CS spray doesn't work: it makes people feel slightly nauseous and blinded. A blinded guy wildly swinging a machete is a menace.

 

[Mantonio]

No, I don't think they should.

You Americans have to take into account that it's different over here. First off, if you're more than 15 minutes from a police officer it's because you've climbed Ben Nevis.

Second, you've got to remember that the average criminal doesn't have a gun. The above average criminal doesn't have a gun. An organised criminal will have maybe an old shotgun with the barrels sawed off. From a purely economic and practical standpoint, we don't need them.

That isn't to say that I think that once a police officer gets a gun, they'll all turn into twitchy, shoot first ask questions never types. But we don't need to arm them further. What good will it do?

as I understand britan has alot fo social problems, I all for it to be honest

Like what? Where did you hear this? And how is it related to whether cops should carry guns?

Yeah and instead UK has one of the highest knife crime rates in the world. Relegating guns to the backseat doesn't just make all crime go down.

Can I see your citation?

 

[EllEzDee]

Wait, so because the guy in the video has a deadly weapon, he deserves to die?
Imagine in another, far more common situation, where rather than mental illness, the perpetrator's off his face on booze? Does this mean he should die? He's not in control of his actions is he?
If the police had firearms, the man in the video would be dead. At least he still has a chance at life.

If the coppers had guns, it'd be just as bad as America, where innocent people are regularly killed by antsy or downright stupid police officers who shouldn't even have such a powerful fucking weapon.

 

[Eri]

Wait, so because the guy in the video has a deadly weapon, he deserves to die?
Imagine in another, far more common situation, where rather than mental illness, the perpetrator's off his face on booze? Does this mean he should die? He's not in control of his actions is he?
If the police had firearms, the man in the video would be dead. At least he still has a chance at life.

If the coppers had guns, it'd be just as bad as America, where innocent people are regularly killed by antsy or downright stupid police officers who shouldn't even have such a powerful fucking weapon.

Oh please. As common as guns are, there is no other option.

The two guys armed with shields could have taken him on reasonably well, still i don't blame them for being over cautious. If the police had been armed with firearms the man may well have ended up dead, if they had been armed with a taser then the situation may have been resolved quicker. Still, in the end riot police arrive and zerg rushed him, the officers did a good job containing him in the meantime.

I don't really see this as a reason to arm UK police officers, especially because in this situation the police managed to neutralise the threat without killing him. As for arming UK police officers in general, i don't really mind if they are armed or not. At the moment though i say UK police forces do fine- why fix what's not broken?

Edit: I'd just point out that according to this wikipedia page,[ the UK has one of the lowest gun related homicide rates in the world, and we are below the EU average. Doing what we are doing now with regards to guns seems to be working well enough to ensure public safety.

Yeah and instead UK has one of the highest knife crime rates in the world. Relegating guns to the backseat doesn't just make all crime go down.

 

[suitepee7]

yup, they should be armed. if they come accross a surprise situation, they should be ready. and they should be ready for anything. currently, they are not. my theory is that the police should never be outgunned by the criminal, or else they automatically have the disadvantage.

 

[BGH122]

Wait, so because the guy in the video has a deadly weapon, he deserves to die?

Certainly not, but if he repeatedly refuses to surrender his weapon, attempts to potentially murder officers who attempt to extricate said weapon and menaces the public with said weapon then he deserves to be shot to disable. Shots to disable aim for centre mass, not the head. A shot to the head would be illegal, even for an AFO or SFO.

Yeah and instead UK has one of the highest knife crime rates in the world. Relegating guns to the backseat doesn't just make all crime go down.

Can I see your citation?

That's incorrect, iirc. However, we do have a rapidly increasing assault with deadly weapon stats climb (roughly 34% per year, last source I read was BBC) even despite the fact that we're pressured to downgrade such offences to possession.

Second, you've got to remember that the average criminal doesn't have a gun. The above average criminal doesn't have a gun. An organised criminal will have maybe an old shotgun with the barrels sawed off. From a purely economic and practical standpoint, we don't need them.

Found in a minor gang's stash mere weeks ago in London. It's far, far easier to obtain these weapons than non-criminals believe.

 

[S_SienZ]

Arm the police, but don't legalise guns.

It's a whole different political climate in the UK compared to the US. USA has a codified constitution, we have Parliamentary Supremacy for the 2 houses of parliament and the Royal Prerogative for the executive. Even without the firearm discrimination the government has absolute power over the people, and they have their own ways of keeping a check in balance. Govt automatically must dissolve if they don't demand the confidence of the commons.

 

[The Woolly One]

The problem is escalation: we are our police then criminals will have to start arming themselves, and they essentially enter an arms race (maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but the point still stands).

The reason our gun crime is low is because criminals don't need to use guns - they're expensive and difficult to get hold of, so the only reason they'd need them is if they are serious or if the police all had guns.

I feel safe knowing that the police in this country don't need guns yet, it makes us feel just a bit more civilised knowing that our crime isn't that bad yet. We do have a lot of knife crime, but the police are equipped to deal with that. Gun crime in this country is no where near the level seen in other countries, partly due to the difficulty of getting guns and partly because, if the police don't use them, criminals see them as an expensive item they just don't need.

And while armed police work well in America, you guys have supermarkets selling guns - of course your police need them. I will never understand why you feel safe with armed police, because the reason they're armed is because the average criminal is armed as well. That's a terrifying society (no offence, I just find the idea that anyone can buy a gun regardless of whether they are a responsible person to be rather scary).

I say keep the police unarmed because arming them will only lead to an 'arms race' between them and the criminals, helping no one.

I sleep relatively well at night not because I know the police don't carry guns, but because I know they don't NEED to carry guns.

Also, our crime rates may be fairly high but not necessarily as bad a the media will have you believe: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/hosb0611/hosb0611?view=Binary

 

[Simalacrum]

I really don't think standard police officers should be armed in the UK. The lack of firearms and very low gun-related crime rates in the UK is one of the few things that I think is good about this country - officers are human as well, and accidents can (and do) happen; arming anyone with a gun can lead to risks of normal people being harmed. Incidents like in the video above simply do not happen often - in most incidences firearms aren't necessary, and arming officers as standard will simply encourage them to use them (or threaten to use them) in situations where it really isn't required.

edit: I think that arming police officers with taser's would be a much better idea; while they can still be on the occasion lethal, it's a lot less dangerous than a gun. The situation in the video would have been handled very easily in such a circumstance.

 

[BGH122]

Incidents like in the video above simply do not happen often

Sadly, they do. They just aren't reported unless they're particularly noteworthy (prolonged standoff, death or severe bodily harm etc). The stats game also makes it look like they don't happen. Even though May has claimed the stats game was a New Labour experiment that she's ditched, ACPO (the bosses, Association of Chief Police Officers) are still pressuring officers to downgrade charges.

There is no reasoning. All of that crap about reasoning is movie magic.

Reasoning should always be attempted regardless of whether the officer in question is in possession of a firearm. The use of a firearm to resolve a conflict is a last ditch solution after the suspect has repeatedly refused to surrender the weapon and has resisted police attempts to extricate said weapon.

 

[Eri]

After watching that video, something I thought was interesting, What exactly would the police have done if he had tried to run into somebodies house, and it was unlocked? Would the police just let him attack whoever's inside? How would they stop him? This whole thing could have ended so much worse.