Poll: Bayonetta 2: "Sexy" done right

[TheArcaneThinker]

I see no problem with that.... Though i am straight male , i have no problem with a game that isnt targeted for me. I am of the opinion that women too should have games that they find appealing and men should too instead of getting rid of it all.

And here is the problem: why do people who oppose complaints of sexism think that women don't want to see sexualized female characters?

- Bayonetta is fine. Bayonetta has every right to be.

- A character aimed at female players, in another videogame, would be good.

- It would also be good if not every female character was like Bayonetta.

- Bayonetta is aimed at male players, so she's NOT supposed to be an empowering character.

I agree with all the points expect the last one , a character can be empowering even though she is made for male players and BTW the points i made of male sexualization are valid . Studies show that women find such characteristics attractive (especially the V shaped male figure with broad shoulders and ) and also here is another fact : only 6 percent of females find the penis attractive so the point you made about a big cocked character being attractive , doesnt count . The thing you should understand is that males hit their sexual peak right after puberty -> approx 16 - 18 years . The male sex drive starts reducing after the sexual peak in their teen years . While females hit their peaks at 25+ . So its natural that young females in gaming may not be that much into sexualization of characters compared to males gamers in their teen years , whereas women who are 25 something , managing their lives arent generally into gaming.

 

[TheArcaneThinker]

Wow... please tell me what videogames you are playing?

There are quite a lot of games like that you see... You just have to search..... deep....

And video games and movies are part of the media , accusing a industry of sexualization and female dis-empowerment and letting the other allow it , is hypocritical...

 

[She-Pudding]

As a female, I love Bayonetta...in her videogames. On the ads, she looked like a sex doll juuuuuust skirting below the level of "disgusting de-huminization". Like the interviewee, that's the reason I ignored the game for so long. But to see her in action- *noone* is posing BAyonetta but Bayonetta. She is freely expressing herself, she is strong, and loves it. And I love her. She is the very image of sexual equality. And she is *wooonderfully* ridiculous. ~u~

 

[DaViller]

A silly question realy, there is nothing bayonetta does wrong.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Sure, if that's what you go for. Which seems to be the general guideline for whether or not a sexy character is done right.

Though with Bayonetta I don't think you can claim she's 'anything' done right. She's just a bunch of over-the-top wrapped up in hair and leather. That's like me saying Leon Kennedy from Resident Evil 4 is a good male character -- He's just an overpowered badass that allows me to raise hell.

 

[DrOswald]

I don't think Bayonetta is "sexy done right". She's still an overly sexualized character aimed at the male audience. No female player benefits from seeing Bayonetta spreading her legs in front of the screen (well, ok, apart from lesbians).

The problem is that female characters in videogames are so objectified that we've reached the point that even Bayonetta seems better by comparison, simply because she might be a sex doll striking up poses for the male player, but at least she's a protagonist who kicks ass.

Thankyouverymuch but I think we can and should do much better than Bayonetta.

Ok, lets drop the discussion of sexuality and empowerment and just assume your opinion on the matter is correct, that no strait woman benefits from the overt sexuality on display in Bayonetta. I'll concede the point temporarily for the purpose of a different discussion.

I will also wave the argument that Bayonetta's sexuality is anything more than simple titillation. Lets assume that, for the purposes of the following discussion, Bayonetta's sexiness exists solely for the purpose of sex appeal.

If Bayonetta is not "sexy done right" it must necessarily be "sexy done wrong". And, as far as I can tell, the only reason why you think it is done wrong is simply because it is made for men: "No female player benefits".

Is that your standard for sexuality done right? That sexuality must be able to be appreciated from a non sexual standpoint? That doesn't make any sense. It is content made to be enjoyed on a sexual level, and sex is a human appetite. And like all human appetites, people have different sexual tastes. I mean, sure, it is certainly not sexuality aimed at you. But why does that make it wrong?

I mean, what if we applied this standard to other appetites?

"This chicken isn't done right."
"Why?"
"Because vegetarians won't like it."

It's a nonsense line of reasoning. By this reasoning ANY depiction of female sexuality will be bad because ALL depictions of female sexuality appeal almost exclusively to those who find female sexuality appealing - primarily men.

 

[DrOswald]

Well, I'll just say that Bayonetta is a character very much intended for males, but somehow this makes people think I oppose sexy female characters.

I don't oppose sexy female characters. What a surprise, isn't it? Because of course if I think Bayonetta is sexist I must be a repressed feminazi who hates sex and women who express it.

I don't oppose sexy female characters... but I don't want when people force me to like a character that is made for the male gaze and beat me up metaphorically because I'd rather like to identify with a real character for women, not a fanservice fest.
But somehow, if I think Bayonetta isn't exactly what I'd call the paradigm of an empowering character made for a female player, I must be wrong. Shame on me, for wanting a heroine that isn't constantly striking up poses for an hypotetical player that is not me, a woman.

The funny thing is that I'd love Bayonetta... if people didn't claim she's somehow supposed to be "empowering". If they said, "look, here's this character who is literally made up of a collection of generic male sex fantasies. And the game is good!"... I'd be pleased to play that game.
But no, what I hear is "look here's this character who is literally made up of a collection of generic male sex fantasies... THIS IS HOW AN EMPOWERING CHARACTER IS LIKE."

Bayonetta is like Lollipop Chainsaw, like Dead Or Alive, etc. But for some reason she's supposed to be different, apparently.

The problem isn't that you think Bayonetta is sexist. It is your stated reason for thinking she is sexist:

"I don't think Bayonetta is "sexy done right". She's still an overly sexualized character aimed at the male audience. No female player benefits from seeing Bayonetta spreading her legs in front of the screen (well, ok, apart from lesbians)."

You stated that the reason you thought Bayonetta was not "sexy done right" was because her overt sexuality does not appeal to women. That is what you said. That is what people responded to.

You can hardly get mad at the fact that people took you at your word.

I get that you don't like Bayonetta and that you get sick of people pushing the idea on you that she is empowering. That must suck. But that is not the complaint you raised. If you don't want people to criticize you for having a problem with sexy female characters, don't specifically say that your problem with Bayonetta is her sexiness, and especially don't use a line of reasoning that logically follows to ALL depictions of female sexuality are sexist.

 

[grassgremlin]

I don't think Bayonetta is "sexy done right". She's still an overly sexualized character aimed at the male audience. No female player benefits from seeing Bayonetta spreading her legs in front of the screen (well, ok, apart from lesbians).

The problem is that female characters in videogames are so objectified that we've reached the point that even Bayonetta seems better by comparison, simply because she might be a sex doll striking up poses for the male player, but at least she's a protagonist who kicks ass.

Thankyouverymuch but I think we can and should do much better than Bayonetta.

I don't think Jacob is "sexy done right". He's still an overly sexualized character aimed at the female audience. No male viewer benefits from seeing Jacob flexing his pecks in front of the screen (well, ok, apart from gay guys).

See just how easy this argument is to turn round ?

Everyone doesn't have to get something from every aspect.
It's ok to have something aimed at a specific demographic.
It's ok for some-one not in that demographic to still enjoy the game.
It's not OK to say everything should be grey mass appeal goo.
It's not OK to say Extra Chunky is not an option.

1) Jacob is entirely optional: he's not the protagonist of the game and the player can completely ignore him and isn't forced to see his sexualization.

2) Jacob's sexuality isn't the main defining point of the character, nor is it the main stylistic pattern of the entire videogame.

3) Jacob doesn't shove his butt in front of the camera, doesn't lick a lollipop suggestively while staring at you, doesn't spend his entire screen time being openly sexual. Jacob has absolutely nothing in common with Bayonetta.

4) You are comparing Jacob to Bayonetta as if that was even possible.

Every male character protagonist or not is sexualized..... When someone plays a game , the males are always heavy muscled brutes with manly hands and broad shoulders... and yes that is a valid point of sexualization . In real life not all are life that ,some are fat , unattractive or downright ugly , etc while in video games they are handsome , give strong manly poses , are masculine , with manly voices , etc . No male player benefits from seeing them giving manly poses in front of the screen.

ù

False equivalence, my dear:

Trust me, if a game had a male protagonist that was equivalent to Bayonetta, you'd stare at the screen in wide-eyed shock and disbelief.

Imagine a lithe, attractive guy who wears only a loincloth, has a big crotch bulge, and has special moves that make him mimic masturbation, put himself in a doggy-style position as the camera zoom on his ass, and lick a lollipop while murmuring fellatio innuendos to the screen.

That would be Bayonetta as a male. So empowering.

I see no problem with that.... Though i am straight male , i have no problem with a game that isnt targeted for me. I am of the opinion that women too should have games that they find appealing and men should too instead of getting rid of it all.

Coming from this fellow, everything you described was hot.

 

[grassgremlin]

Honestly, the problem with this argument is that most people who will disagree never actually played the game and can only see the character based on promotional videos, reviews and advertising.

The only reason why some people believe Bayonetta is "sexy done right" and "empowering" is because they happened to have played the games and witness these characters for themselves.

Bayonetta is kind of the victom of being lumped into a crowd because well it is a crowd.
Had the games been released when Sexy females weren't common people would give it a chance . . . however, because the market is so saturated it doesn't matter what Bayonetta does in the game. It takes a few clips and promotional poster to portray the character a certain way.

Wanna know a good example?

A character study.

Ivy is a sexualized character done wrong.
Present to me a detailed reason why I have came to the conclusion.
If it matches my own reason you get a cookie.

The idea is that if your answer isn't similar to my own conclusion, you have either never played soul calibur before or never paid attention to the games story.



To add, their are people who have played the entire game and have came to the conclusion Bayonetta is over-sexualized and objectified. I can understand their reason just as well as I can understand those who defend her . . . because they actually played the game.

 

[Callate]

I'm glad she likes it, but that's kind of beside the point. It isn't up to anyone else to dictate what someone finds sexy. You can shame them for it, if you're a sanctimonious and terrible person, but repression is an infamously poor way of actually changing the way people feel.

 

[GloatingSwine]

An important thing to recognise about Bayonetta is that the presentation of her sexuality is not incidental.

Not just to the presentation of her as a character, but to the moment to moment gameplay. To understand this you have to understand the genre of games Bayonetta is part of, spectacle fighters. A major part of spectacle fighter gameplay is that there are "flair moments", moments where there's a brief rest in the tempo of a fight whilst the character does a particularly flashy thing. Whether it's the over the top Obliteration Techniques of Ninja Gaiden 2, the fem-dom Torture Attacks and dodges into witch time in Bayonetta, Kratos' brutally demolishing a poor schmuck, whatever. They're moments in the game where the player gets to release a bit of tension not just because there's something cathartic happening on screen but because they are, in the good ones, temporarily invincible whilst it is happening (see: Space Marine, the execution moves did not render you invulnerable).

So, the sexualisation of Bayonetta is not subtractable from the presentation of the game as a whole without replacing it with something else.

This is an important reason why people are saying it is "done right", because it feels like a necessary component of the character and of the game as a whole, whereas in many other examples the sexualisation just feels so incidental, they're not doing anything in the game except being sexualisation, and if the game doesn't have the balls to go all out porn* they just end up being a bit tacky.

This is what grassgremlin is talking about with Ivy, not only is her sexualisation incidental to her character, it's actually contrary to what the narrative of her character purports to be, it's almost the ultimate in "doin it rong" when it comes to presenting a realistic and consistent character. (Plus by Soul Calibur 5 she's about 50 and should be tripping over those things)

*Srsly, I have played actual porn games which have less blatant fanservice during most of their content than many non-porn games. Seriously, if you told people one of these [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JodKGxAni8U] two [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuCdI8w_N3c] games was pornographic and asked them to guess which, unless they knew the games they'd probably guess wrong.

 

[Irick]

*Srsly, I have played actual porn games which have less blatant fanservice during most of their content than many non-porn games. Seriously, if you told people one of these [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JodKGxAni8U] two [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuCdI8w_N3c] games was pornographic and asked them to guess which, unless they knew the games they'd probably guess wrong.

It was close, and then I saw the goo girl.
Goo girl = Porn game. I'm genre savvy sempi~

 

[Erttheking]

*cut*

Wait, you didn't mean Jacob as in Mass Effect, you meant Jacob as in TWILIGHT??? What does it have to do with anything? That would be like me saying that videogames are sexist because if I watch a porn movie, there are naked sexy women in it.

Well yes that's the point you can apply the same arbitrary standards to other artistic genres and show just how stupid it is.

So tell me again how Jacob in Twilight isn't sexualised to appeal to women again ?

You can generally tell if a male character is sexualized or not by the way they act. Kratos?

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/kratos5.jpg

Eh...no. The Pillar Men?

http://38.media.tumblr.com/57565e3ae9144dc0eefa44210bc5e257/tumblr_nbig47BgAm1s755fuo1_500.png

Much more so. Just the way that dress and hold themselves screams "Fuck me"

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

*cut*

Wait, you didn't mean Jacob as in Mass Effect, you meant Jacob as in TWILIGHT??? What does it have to do with anything? That would be like me saying that videogames are sexist because if I watch a porn movie, there are naked sexy women in it.

Well yes that's the point you can apply the same arbitrary standards to other artistic genres and show just how stupid it is.

So tell me again how Jacob in Twilight isn't sexualised to appeal to women again ?

You can generally tell if a male character is sexualized or not by the way they act. Kratos?

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/kratos5.jpg

Eh...no. The Pillar Men?

http://38.media.tumblr.com/57565e3ae9144dc0eefa44210bc5e257/tumblr_nbig47BgAm1s755fuo1_500.png

Much more so. Just the way that dress and hold themselves screams "Fuck me"

Jojo parts 1-5 ran in Shounen Jump, a magazine aimed at Young boys though...

So they weren't really intended to be sexualized.

 

[Erttheking]

I'm glad she likes it, but that's kind of beside the point. It isn't up to anyone else to dictate what someone finds sexy. You can shame them for it, if you're a sanctimonious and terrible person, but repression is an infamously poor way of actually changing the way people feel.

Is having a dissenting opinion and not being happy with the way things are in media really shaming and repressing?

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

....Please tell me how the man thrusting his ass out isn't sexualized. Please tell me how men who have all fought in loin cloths aren't sexualized. Please tell me how the characters that constantly strike sexy posses aren't sexualized.

And most importantly, please tell me how a male character being in Shonen Jump makes it physically impossible for them to be sexualized. JoJo's Bizare Adventure has a HUGE female following after all. And in Part 5 the designs were changed to help appeal to them. Look at the main character for that part.

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/2/27367/526018-giogio.jpg


And it was still in the same magazine. So please tell me how the magazine it was in prevented the male characters being sexualized? Because maybe, just maybe, we can are capable of appealing to more than one demographic at a time. Because despite being in a magazine aimed at young boys, the series is TEEMING with homo-eroticism.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/HoYay/JoJosBizarreAdventure

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

Snip

....Please tell me how the man thrusting his ass out isn't sexualized. Please tell me how men who have all fought in loin cloths aren't sexualized. Please tell me how the characters that constantly strike sexy posses aren't sexualized.

And most importantly, please tell me how a male character being in Shonen Jump makes it physically impossible for them to be sexualized. JoJo's Bizare Adventure has a HUGE female following after all. And in Part 5 the designs were changed to help appeal to them. Look at the main character for that part.

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/2/27367/526018-giogio.jpg


And it was still in the same magazine. So please tell me how the magazine it was in prevented the male characters being sexualized? Because maybe, just maybe, we can are capable of appealing to more than one demographic at a time. Because despite being in a magazine aimed at young boys, the series is TEEMING with homo-eroticism.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/HoYay/JoJosBizarreAdventure

Part 4 is when the art style changed from Buff to lean, not 5.

And hey, I didn't say all that lol. Araki just likes poses. They weren't really intended to be sexy or anything. I guess you can think they are sexy, but that wasn't the intention. Araki had stated that he found Jojo posses " blur the line of fantasy and reality".

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Wasn't intentional? If it wasn't intentional to make the guy who stuck his ass out sexualized then this guy has zero awareness about sex. Also I have seen plenty of posses done before in other media, none of them have the come heither look that that Jojo manages to pull off. Plus there's no denying that he acknowledged that the female fans liked it and capitalized on it.

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

Snip

Wasn't intentional? If it wasn't intentional to make the guy who stuck his ass out sexualized then this guy has zero awareness about sex. Also I have seen plenty of posses done before in other media, none of them have the come heither look that that Jojo manages to pull off. Plus there's no denying that he acknowledged that the female fans liked it and capitalized on it.

tbh, his art style was preety stiff in Part 1 and Part 2. Kinda shamefully emulated Hokuto No Ken's art :/

And no, poses have been in Jojo since Part 1, back in 1987. And they were just as outlandish as now.

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

Also, Part 2 and 3 were moreso about friendship and brotherhood, something people always seem to attribute homoeroticism too ( I get why, but...still)