Poll: Bioware needs to grow up

[Mikeyfell]

No, no, no no no no no. If you can´t understand the hidden meaning behind Mass Effect 1 and 2 about society I´m not gonna be the one to explain it. I´ll just say this: you can make a good story out of anything, as MovieBob once said. The big deal is not the actual point of the story (big giant squid robots gonna crush Earth, we stop them bang bang), but the layers of complexity hidden behind the game itself. Almost every Bioware game has this characteristic that makes them one of the best companies in the market in terms of complex storytelling.

Mass Effect's story had the deeply woven integral thread of racism, but the problem is that it was equal prevalent from both sides, and a lot more drastic from the aliens, and yet everyone still looks down on the humans because they represent white people. It could be argued that this is a satire on modern society of minorities "getting back" at white people for years and years of racism, as they fail to realize that it's still racism them selves. But in Mass Effect the "Paragon" options are still Shepard siding with the Aliens, so that goes out the window. Honestly the Illusive Man is the only person in the galaxy who knows what's going on, the only one who figured out that all Shepard's "paragon" actions condemn humanity to an existence of "taken' it" from the aliens, just because they don't like us. Which no one ever refers to as "wrong". You're a worse person if you didn't give the Illusive Man the baby reaper.


That's also not the point that was really being made here.
The problem is that the only thing Bioware has done to make us (The player) want to see Shepard succeed is to put the entire universe in his/her hands alone. That's the big problem with how Bioware tells stories the answer to "Why do I care?" is always "Because everything will get fucked up if you don't." There's no personal motivation involved. It's altruism on so grand a scale that you'd have to see it through to completion even if you picked all the Dickheadest options. Bioware is incapable of delivering a personal narrative with out railroading the serious choices into one way situations (Why Dragon Age 2 sucked)

And you know what? If you are in such a big previligied position to insult professional writers and everyone that appreciates their stories and maybe the stories' actual meaning, write something yourself. And I´m not talking about a summary of the plot or some text saying "you´ll have epic decisions like (random case most likely Good 'r Evil cliché)", I´m talking about a great complex story. And you don´t have to show it to me, just go on and try to publish it. Let´s see how good it will go.

Do you mean write a better version of a Bioware story? or just a novel? The thing about game stories like that is that they have to have such a broad goal so the protagonist's personality doesn't interfere with completion. Any Bioware stile game has to have a bad story unless it gets narrowed down to a more personal objective, then in that case every action you choose will have to effect the every subsequent choice you make.
Take Dragon Age 2 for example. If your Hawke's personality made it so he didn't care about getting out of Lowtown why did you even go on the expedition in the first place?
If Hawke wanted to side with the Arishok why did you have to kill him?
And in Act 3 no matter who sides with what you have to kill the mages and the templars. The story is a mess. None of that had to happen depending on how you played. but it didn't matter.
Lots of work for a good story with a customizable protagonist, less work for a bad story with a customizable protagonist. If you don't have to account for the choices of the players you could write a masterpiece (relatively) easily.

 

[Mikeyfell]

oops double post.

 

[gring]

Hey, thanks for the spoilers!

Good job running through each game too, you managed to spoil about 12 years worth of games!

Be careful what you post, or use "SPOILERS" next time, cause that's what they're for.

If any of these was news to you, then you have no-one to blame but yourself for not playing these games years ago. The unspoken rule of spoilers is that they cease being considered such if the game's been out for more than 2 years. Besides, you were on a thread discussing BioWare stories. What were you expecting- half of the content to be redacted?

Haha, is this a joke?

First of all, unspoken rule? The only unspoken rule here is you're a dick if you spoil something for someone else when you could have easily made a spoiler tag like the OP did, because that is what they are used for. Besides where do all these unspoken rules come from, just you? I don't really see many other spoilers here in this thread because people either dont say the most important spoiler to every single bioware game, or they carefully use the spoiler tags because they are what is called "considerate" to other people, something which you are not, which was my entire point and your response now confirms.

The thread is called "bioware needs to grow up", talking about general bioware issues, not "every important bioware spoiler ever is in this thread". There is a HUGE difference between talking about bioware as a company and literally going through an entire list of the most important spoilers from an entire library of games from said developer. But most importantly, you CAN actually talk about stories in games without cutting to the single most important spoiler in those stories. And if you actually read the OP, you would see that even he uses the spoiler tag when talking about planescape, a game that is 17 YEARS OLD, way older then your "unspoken rule of 2 years" BS.

Regardless of how you justify it to yourself, your post is still unnecessarily filled with spoilers, and the funniest part about your defense is that you try to blame me for reading just a fraction of your spoiler filled post, which has about as much logic as me punching someone then blaming that person for being in the direction of my fist.

 

[Bostur]

I largely agree with BloatedGuppy, but in Biowares defense you can take any story, turn it into a one-liner and it will seem shallow.

Stories are like jokes in one sense. A good joke is not about the catch line, it's about how you tell it, the timing, the pace all the little things. It's the same with stories they need to be relatively simple otherwise we get lost in the intricacy. I think this holds even more true for computer game stories, because if we are to play a game for 40-100 hours there's a limit to how many plot twists we can handle. A good story is one that is told well, not necessarily the one with the most complex plot.

They did drop the ball a bit with the storytelling of ME2. I think partly because the subplots got too detailed compared to the main plot, and that resulted in a story that lost its balance. Also a lot of the subplots failed to connect to the main plot, and that was a serious mistake.
ME2's strong suit is definately the sub plots. One of my favorites is the conversations with Legion which I think have some very clever delivery. Unfortunately the climax turns into binary decision making, as it always does in ME2.

I think DA:O had a better balance in that respect. Maybe because the characters had more of a stake in the overall plot, and that made it easier to connect them and the subplots to the greater story.


In regards to DA2, I'm a bit worried that BW will keep thinking that DA2 failed because it was too advanced in it's storytelling. That might prevent them from further experimentation in the future. In my opinion they dropped the ball on DA2 for completely different reasons. Gameplay design and lack of polish being the major culprits.

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

I enjoyed the Dragon Age games but it is really not fair to compare games to Planescape: Torment. I mean, come on. It is TORMENT. However, I do massively agree that I am sick of defeating some ancient evil that is going to destroy the world. I really don't need to be battling to save humanity to feel like the game is worth playing.
In many ways, I preferred the smaller scale story of Dragon Age 2, where it was just about Hawke. Of course, they didn't do a great job of it but I liked what they wanted to do. It seems nowadays that most Bioware RPGs are just about gathering up all your resources/companions to beat the big baddy who never shows his face until the end. It really isn't very exciting so I can see where you are coming from.

 

[AdumbroDeus]

Eh, not every game has to be a super-complex multi-layered political/social drama. Some things are intelligent and well-developed, but based on simplicity and charm for example. Chrono Trigger and Knight of the Old Republic were good for the same reasons, they had a primary simplicity and charm, they had an epic scope.

Are we back to this? No, not every game has to be. I'm not yelping about epic storytelling in "The Sims" or "Just Cause 2" or "Left 4 Dead" over here. I'm asking the self-styled masters of the RPG to up their game a little bit, and at least TRY to rival what Black Isle was doing 12 years ago instead of just coasting along on a trite little formula and hanging the interesting bits on the fringes like garlands. "Epic scope" is easy. Any moron can write up "epic scope". And they have. MANY TIMES NOW. Let's have something different from them, shall we?

No, you're yelping lack of depth and complexity in other games that work perfectly well in other games which don't need it, and that's called being pretentious, just like I used to be.

The fact of the matter is, epic storytelling doesn't require a complex multi-faceted narrative to be good, and while epic scope is easy, doing it well is extremely difficult, no matter which route you're taking.


While there's nothing wrong with games that delve into complex multi-faceted issues as their primary narrative, that's just not Bioware's style, they go for a relatively simple narrative and deal with it through sophistication and maturity, and in general, they're good at it. They never tried to be Black Isle.


You wanna play a something that plays like a Black Isle game? Then play a Black Isle game! Obsidian is essentially the people from Black Isle studios and their games incorporate similar themes, which was why I personally enjoyed Kotor 2 a lot more then the original.

But don't go after Bioware for not being Black Isle. They took an equally legitimate artistic route and are doing it well.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

...and that's called being pretentious, just like I used to be.

Not to be pedantic, but calling someone pretentious while airily suggesting it's something you've personally grown out of is essentially the working definition of pretension.

 

[AdumbroDeus]

...and that's called being pretentious, just like I used to be.

Not to be pedantic, but calling someone pretentious while airily suggesting it's something you've personally grown out of is essentially the working definition of pretension.

Lol, I never said I grew out of being pretentious, just that particular trope within being pretentious.


Regardless, the point I was trying to make was that it's an easy trap to fall into when you take games (or any medium) seriously enough to critically examine them, one assumes they are serious and therefore cannot appreciate anything that doesn't take itself as seriously as you're taking it.

Problem is, you lose so much when you can only appreciate the Final Fantasy Tactics, and the Planetscape Tormants, and the Morrowinds; while not recognizing the value of the Psychonauts, the Portals, and the Chrono Triggers of the gaming world. They thrive on simplistic subject matter dealt with in a mature way, and it can be used to make just as effective a game.

 

[Kakashi on crack]

-snip-

Giant wall of text but I got through most of it... In my opinion Neverwinter Nights was one of the best games Bioware worked on.

I don't get how you can compare KoTOR with those other two since it was released... 4 years prior to ME, and 6 years prior to origins... KoTOR was original in a sense, and the reason it was black and white had less to do with morality, and more to do with the whole jedi vs. sith thing. There were "grey" Jedi, but for the msot part, Jedi held a very "zen" like state, lacking most emotions and acting as guardians/peacekeepers meanwhile Sith focused more on "passions" and "emotions." I haven't really encountered a "conquer/destroy galaxy" from Malak yet, but I'm not really far into the game yet.

In my time I've been playing KoTOR I've actually liked it for the most part story wise.

Mass Effect I can see how you tie in the whole Morality system. That was my biggest greivance with them as it made no sense why they had to have it. I liked dragon age's system involving no morality but instead points regarding how much characters agree/disagree with the player.

That being said, Origins was average at best for me *shrug*


They all have their ups and downs. Its not necesarily that the story is childish, I rather think that Bioware uses more of a story based story instead of a realistic one in terms of dealing with characters, plots, events, etc.


This probably isn't well thought out since I plan to go to sleep here soon, but *shrug* I just felt like commenting.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Lol, I never said I grew out of being pretentious, just that particular trope within being pretentious.

Regardless, the point I was trying to make was that it's an easy trap to fall into when you take games (or any medium) seriously enough to critically examine them, one assumes they are serious and therefore cannot appreciate anything that doesn't take itself as seriously as you're taking it.

Problem is, you lose so much when you can only appreciate the Final Fantasy Tactics, and the Planetscape Tormants, and the Morrowinds; while not recognizing the value of the Psychonauts, the Portals, and the Chrono Triggers of the gaming world. They thrive on simplistic subject matter dealt with in a mature way, and it can be used to make just as effective a game.

Those are a lot of assumptions about what I do and do not appreciate. Portal and Psychonauts are both FINE games. I do not require every single game to be Planescape Torment. What I would like is a few more like that. A few more games thematically aimed at adults, and not children, or young adults, or teenagers. I'd like to see Bioware handle a relationship the way a fine film or novel might, instead of Shepard painfully sexually harassing her shipmates as though the dialogue has erupted straight out of the pleasure center of a 13 year old boy. I'd like to see a storyline that does not encompass me and my renegade band stopping the [insert grand evil here] before the [insert calamity here] strikes. It doesn't mean I don't appreciate Mass Effect and Dragon Age for what they ARE. They are wonderful. It means I'm beginning to lose patience with all the things they're not.

When Bioware first started to chat up Dragon Age, they specifically referenced George R.R. Martin as a leading influence for their work. "We want to make dark, gritty fantasy" they said. Shades of grey. Politics. A complex world. And Thedas has some potential, but it's so very lightly touched upon. We get a smattering of politics, and some light ethical dilemmas in side quests, and the rest of the time we're fighting the good fight against a boiling horde of monstrosities who are out to extinguish all life. It really doesn't get LESS grey than that. You've read A Song of Ice and Fire, I trust. Or possibly Abercrombie's First Law series. I want that level of complex characterization. I want that level of shades of grey. I don't want to know 5 seconds after turning the game on who the bad guys are, and that's them over there, crawling out of their Sinister Dungeon, drooling blood, rending villagers apart. You'll pardon me if it all seems so very trite.

So perhaps I'm being pretentious as all hell by wishing the most prominent story driven RPG developer might write me a story that I'd really like to hear and put it into a game I'd really like to play. Maybe that makes me an entitled, high minded bastard. But that's what I'd like. And I want Bioware to reboot Ultima and liberate gaming's most venerated series from EA's filthy paw.s And I'd like someone to make me an excellent hamburger that blows my mind. And I'd like the Canucks to stop breaking my heart and win a Stanley Cup already. There's nothing WRONG with wanting things and asking for things. It doesn't mean I'm full of hate and dissatisfaction, or blind to the merits of the things I do have.

 

[RazzleDazzle102]

Characters who do what most people would call "The middle option" are boring and declared indecisive. I'll take a story with clearly defined sense of morality over a game where the main character doesn't ask "why" but, "What will I Do?"
juss saying...
btw - KOTOR's storyline was amazing... simply put

 

[Undead Dragon King]

snip

The "funniest part" of my defense, as you put it, is actually the best part of my defense. Your response has definitely made your methods of reading threads obvious: you really don't pay a lot of attention to each post. If you'd read the OP, you'd have found out exactly what he meant by "BioWare needs to grow up"- namely the elements of their stories. It was right there at the start. That should have been a clue for you as to what argumentative points you'd find on this thread. The employment of the plot twists was to counteract his arguments as to the blandness of BioWare's stories, so it was a relevant post. Plus, before I got into the plot twists, I said that they were coming. News flash: You don't have to read the whole post! To use your analogy, I would indeed blame you if I pulled the punch back slowly, you saw me do it, and you made absolutely no attempt to get out of the way.

As for unspoken rules, mine is you're behind on the times, yours is that I'm a dick for not coddling people who havn't played AAA-level games which have been out for so long that their plots are common knowledge among BioWare fans by this point. Fair enough. I've already been praised on this thread for my original post, and since you're the only person in the 250+ responses who's criticized me for the "no spoilers", your self-righteous indignation that I'm essentially ruining the entire BioWare experience for everyone who reads this thread rings a bit hollow to me.

I'll just take it as batting .500 and leave it at that.

 

[stebsy]

Simply untrue. Obsidian is head and shoulders above Bioware in terms of quality of narrative. They just can't put together a working, polished game to save their lives.

Since Obsidian is the closest thing to a successor studio that Black Isle can claim to have, I can understand your line of thinking here.

However, Obsidian suffers the absolute reverse problem of BioWare. Conceptually, their overall stories are great. However, they just can't make a functioning game.

And even then, BioWare's stories aren't totally cut-and-paste. You're completely leaving out the issues of plot twists that make BioWare's stories unique. Since these are all (at least relatively) old games, I won't bother with spoiler tags.

KOTOR: You ARE that evil Sith who's threatening the galaxy! What do you do now? Betray and kill your plucky companions? Go for it!

Jade Empire: Your master, not the big, bad emperor, is the real enemy and kills you just as you find out!

Dragon Age: You or one of your plucky companions MUST DIE before that big evil monster must die. Or you can transfer that monster's powers to a creepy witch's unborn child who will use it for who-knows-what evil reason?

Mass Effect: The evil robots are being ushered in by a tragic figure who sees his actions as trying to save lives, even as it ushers in the galactic apocalypse, which would have happened already if it hadn't been for a civiliation tens of thousnds of years dead.


Granted, Mass Effect 2's story didn't have a great overarching plot, but the characters and their individual missions were enough to power through it. Plus, it fell into that "middle movie" hole where it can't have a definite beginning or end. Mass Effect 3 will have some amazing plot twists in it, mark my words.

Fuck man I realy hate you right now im playing through jade empire for the first time right now lol even with old games you should still put spoiler tags.

 

[AdumbroDeus]

Lol, I never said I grew out of being pretentious, just that particular trope within being pretentious.

Regardless, the point I was trying to make was that it's an easy trap to fall into when you take games (or any medium) seriously enough to critically examine them, one assumes they are serious and therefore cannot appreciate anything that doesn't take itself as seriously as you're taking it.

Problem is, you lose so much when you can only appreciate the Final Fantasy Tactics, and the Planetscape Tormants, and the Morrowinds; while not recognizing the value of the Psychonauts, the Portals, and the Chrono Triggers of the gaming world. They thrive on simplistic subject matter dealt with in a mature way, and it can be used to make just as effective a game.

Those are a lot of assumptions about what I do and do not appreciate. Portal and Psychonauts are both FINE games. I do not require every single game to be Planescape Torment. What I would like is a few more like that. A few more games thematically aimed at adults, and not children, or young adults, or teenagers. I'd like to see Bioware handle a relationship the way a fine film or novel might, instead of Shepard painfully sexually harassing her shipmates as though the dialogue has erupted straight out of the pleasure center of a 13 year old boy. I'd like to see a storyline that does not encompass me and my renegade band stopping the [insert grand evil here] before the [insert calamity here] strikes. It doesn't mean I don't appreciate Mass Effect and Dragon Age for what they ARE. They are wonderful. It means I'm beginning to lose patience with all the things they're not.

When Bioware first started to chat up Dragon Age, they specifically referenced George R.R. Martin as a leading influence for their work. "We want to make dark, gritty fantasy" they said. Shades of grey. Politics. A complex world. And Thedas has some potential, but it's so very lightly touched upon. We get a smattering of politics, and some light ethical dilemmas in side quests, and the rest of the time we're fighting the good fight against a boiling horde of monstrosities who are out to extinguish all life. It really doesn't get LESS grey than that. You've read A Song of Ice and Fire, I trust. Or possibly Abercrombie's First Law series. I want that level of complex characterization. I want that level of shades of grey. I don't want to know 5 seconds after turning the game on who the bad guys are, and that's them over there, crawling out of their Sinister Dungeon, drooling blood, rending villagers apart. You'll pardon me if it all seems so very trite.

So perhaps I'm being pretentious as all hell by wishing the most prominent story driven RPG developer might write me a story that I'd really like to hear and put it into a game I'd really like to play. Maybe that makes me an entitled, high minded bastard. But that's what I'd like. And I want Bioware to reboot Ultima and liberate gaming's most venerated series from EA's filthy paw.s And I'd like someone to make me an excellent hamburger that blows my mind. And I'd like the Canucks to stop breaking my heart and win a Stanley Cup already. There's nothing WRONG with wanting things and asking for things. It doesn't mean I'm full of hate and dissatisfaction, or blind to the merits of the things I do have.

And there's nothing wrong with wanting more games like that, in any genre.


At the same time, pointing to bioware and saying "you guys, grow up. Now, make me some of this type of game" is just wrong, for two major reasons.

1. It devalues the great games they have made simply on the basis that they are not that type of game. Worse, it devalues better games made by other people simply because they aren't complex multi-faceted dramas.

2. Bioware simply isn't the right company for this. Seriously, bioware simply has shown that it just doesn't have the capacity for such storytelling. What it excels at is characterization (beyond relationships, which are hit or miss). Bioware's just a bad choice.


Keep in mind, we do have pandemic, and they have been doing some damn good work.



I think I evaluated you correctly though, the use of the word "fine" for the true masterworks that are psychonauts and portal pretty much tells the story here. In hindsight, "appreciate" was a stronger impression then I meant to convey, "have less inherent value" is more appropriate.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

To be honest, wouldn't really know. The gameplay was to dull for me to ever finish a Mass Effect game.

 

[Undead Dragon King]

snip

Did you read the first part of my post? Where I basically told you what was coming?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I think I evaluated you correctly though, the use of the word "fine" for the true masterworks that are psychonauts and portal pretty much tells the story here. In hindsight, "appreciate" was a stronger impression then I meant to convey, "have less inherent value" is more appropriate.

I think I've evaluated your need to purchase a dictionary.

fine
1   [fahyn] Show IPA adjective, fin·er, fin·est, adverb, verb, fined, fin·ing, noun
adjective
1. of superior or best quality; of high or highest grade: fine wine.

 

[stebsy]

snip

Did you read the first part of my post? Where I basically told you what was coming?

No lol was just scrolling through and the words jade empire caught my attention, it was very, ooh im playing jade empire what does this say...... Master Li how could youl!!!!! Lol

 

[spartan231490]

No. Just no. Rachni. Krogan Genophage. Cerberus. Connor. Jowan. These are the morally grey regions that I can remember off the top of my head for DA: Origins and Mass Effect one and Two. I didn't even finish DA: Origins(not because I didn't like it, I'm an alt-aholic), and I haven't played either mass effect in over 6 months. Just no. These games are not morally black and white. The enemy is black and white evil, but the world isn't.

 

[wgering]

I'd like to see Bioware handle a relationship the way a fine film or novel might, instead of Shepard painfully sexually harassing her shipmates as though the dialogue has erupted straight out of the pleasure center of a 13 year old boy.

Thank you for hitting that, I forgot to mention it. I find the "romance" aspects of BioWare games to be absolutely preposterous. For instance, my most glaring complaint: why in bloody hell does the protagonist (speaking primarily of DA and ME here) never get turned down? In ME2 I ended up "romancing" Tali BY ACCIDENT. That should not be able to happen. Real relationships take work (often a shit-ton of work), and BioWare has done an excellent job of making them seem easy. That completely defeats the purpose.

One thing that annoys me about game stories in general (going outside RPGs here) is that love-interests seem to get shoehorned into a lot of them. My favorite recent example of this was in GTA4, when Niko is absolutely distraught over the murder of a woman to whom he had spoken perhaps three times, simply because the writers decided she was his object of affection. I dislike when games don't justify things to me, and when a game says, "Here is an NPC. Your character cares about them, because they are the love interest," it really ruins the immersion of the game.

No, I disagree. That NPC is a stranger. I don't know them.

Admittedly, BioWare is a little better than that; they say "Here are these four or five NPCs; pick one that will become your love interest."

I think the whole Anders romance thing in DA2 was a step in the right direction though. I remember when Anders first hit on my male Hawke, I was genuinely surprised (and not just by the unexpected flirtation). "Holy shit," I said to myself, "an NPC that thinks for itself!" This was sadly short-lived. It definitely made Anders seem more like a real person with real feelings and desires, as opposed to the Mass Effect "love interests," which bear closer resemblances to multiple-choice examinations if you ask me.