Poll: Borderlands 2 Writer debate over twitter about the racist Tiny Tina

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Toy Master Typhus

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So a group of people were attacking the writer for BL2 over how Tiny Tina speaks, citing it as racsism because of the use of words and phrases like "budonkadonk" and "fine ass lady" as a trope of white girl pretending to be black. Also citing that people who speak in ebonics and not of african descent are racist.

SOURCE: http://kotaku.com/5981171/borderlands-2s-writer-says-hell-change-tiny-tina-if-she-conveys-racism-as-some-players-think-

Since we all love our controversy here at the escapist forums I was wondering how the escapist felt about this event. Personnelly, I think this is proof we have stopped wanting to actually try and fix things and are just looking for reasons to hate. This isn't about furthering a medium anymore, this has turned into a shit fest for some priveledged little snot to justify having a sociology degree.
 

Rylot

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Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention or don't remember the game well enough but I never got the impression that Tiny Tina was speaking in Ebonics; she was just kind of a spastic little shit (in a good way). That coupled with how diverse the cast and npcs are this claim feels fairly unwarranted.
 

Baron von Blitztank

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Way I see it is that something is only racist if there was genuine hate behind it, and with the case of Tiny Tina I don't see a character created to insult and mock someone because of their ethnicity but more a character akin to a psychopathic Edward from Cowboy Bebop. Besides, let's be honest here...

 

WoW Killer

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Wrong and stupid. I sincerely doubt you'll get anybody post here arguing a yes case. If someone does, then maybe I'll further explain why this is wrong and stupid. Otherwise, I'll just say it's wrong and stupid, since everybody else is already fully aware of why this is wrong and stupid. It's wrong and stupid.
 

StBishop

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Burch is a great writer, I think it's good that he's considering the fact that he might have offended some people. I don't think he needs to change the character, but surely we can appreciate his humility in this situation.
 

Tanis

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valium said:
Irony, it is these people who are racist.
Son of a...
Beat me to it, in the first damn post!

OT:
But, no.

Unless a black person talking all 'proper like' is a black being racist...then NO.
 

bananafishtoday

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Baron von Blitztank said:
Way I see it is that something is only racist if there was genuine hate behind it
No. Intent isn't important; what matters is the actual content. "It wasn't meant to be racist" isn't a valid defense if the work ends up being racist anyway and is right up there with "But some of my best friends are X" in the "shit that don't matter" category of arguments.

OT: Nah, I think Tiny Tina's fine. I think what the people levying these accusations miss is that this manner of speech isn't "black" so much as "urban." It has more to do with peer groups and class than race. I know plenty of white/Asian/Latino folks who talk "like" this.

("Like" in quotes because TT's speech is a really clumsy approximation of what it's trying to copy, like those "totally radical!!" characters of the 90's. But not racist.)
 

omega 616

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Notice how it's just a bunch of white people being offended and calling racism? "don't worry black people, I will be offended for you!" like if a black person did rise the point it would be ignored.

This writer should ask why it took more than 2 months for this to be a thing.
 

WoW Killer

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bananafishtoday said:
Intent isn't important; what matters is the actual content. "It wasn't meant to be racist" isn't a valid defense if the work ends up being racist anyway
Bollocks. You're talking of political incorrectness, not racism. You can accidentally say something politically incorrect. You don't accidentally hate people of other races. You don't accidentally believe a race to be inferior to another. You don't accidentally keep slaves or commit genocide. Words aren't racist; only the people saying them can be racist.
 

bastardofmelbourne

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I watched the video in the Kotaku thread. Doesn't seem racist at all. As in, literally zero indication that this was racist. I didn't even twig to the fact that she was using "black" lingo until I read the tweets complaining about it, and even then, so what? What's racist about that?

bananafishtoday said:
Baron von Blitztank said:
Way I see it is that something is only racist if there was genuine hate behind it
No. Intent isn't important; what matters is the actual content. "It wasn't meant to be racist" isn't a valid defense if the work ends up being racist anyway and is right up there with "But some of my best friends are X" in the "shit that don't matter" category of arguments.
I've never really been comfortable with that line of argument. I mean, if you remove the speaker's intention from the assessment of any offending phrase, you're just left with the recipient's perspective. There are a whole stack of problems with that.

Imagine I'm talking to you on the phone. I'm standing at a bank (as in the financial institution) and you're standing on a bank (as in the shore of a river). I say "I'll meet you at the bank," referring to the financial instution I'm standing in front of. The obvious ambiguity is that you don't know which bank I'm referring to. You don't know my location and I haven't elaborated.

The reason why discounting a speaker's intention is problematic is because if you say my intent has no impact on the meaning of the statement, you will always conclude (incorrectly) that I meant the riverbank, just because that's where you're currently standing and it makes the most sense from your perspective. It's not to say you're at fault if you get confused and assume that I was referring to the riverbank - that's because I wasn't specific enough over the phone. But it's incorrect to say that because you thought I was referring to the riverbank, I actually meant the riverbank.

That's what I think of whenever I see someone say "Intent isn't as important as content." You're basically holding the recipient's perspective over that of the sender. That doesn't work. Language is a two-way street. The sender has to send a clear message, and the recipient has to understand it. If you dismiss the sender's intent, you'll always assume I meant the riverbank, and we'll never actually communicate.

When you look at it that way, the "content" of the message isn't actually as relevant as whether or not we both know what the content refers to. If I used a made-up code word, like "badonkadonk," to refer to riverbanks, and you knew that, then when I say "bank" you'd know I meant the financial institution, and when I say "badonkadonk" you'd know I meant the riverbank. The actual content, as in the word "bank," doesn't matter. What matters is that you and I both know what the content means.

Not to mention the fact that recipients can have a whole range of possible reactions to a phrase based on their personal perspective. I mean, you say the developer's intent doesn't matter. You don't think TT was racist, but there are people out there who do. If we've remove the developer's intent from the matter, why is your perspective valued more than that of those guys on Twitter? If whether or not something is racist is determined by how the recipient interprets the content, then its meaning actually depends on the recipient, and we end up with TT being simultaneously racist and not racist depending on who's playing the game. That's absurd.

This turned into a bit of a spiel. Sorry. I'll understand if you don't respond! :/
 

Silly Hats

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I'm a little more shocked by the fact that a fictional 13 year old girl that is a Psychopathic, mass murdering, genius with severe Childhood Abandonment issues and also has an insane amount of knowledge with Weaponry and Bombs.

What's that? She used the word "Badonkadonk"?

 

Anathrax

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This is as silly as claiming someone is ripping off PewDiePie if they see as much as a glimpse of a chair in a millisecond of a video. It's absolutely insane how some people are absolutely insane to the point that they need to call everything racist/sexist/cookieist because of their absolutely insane fantasy that their role model(let it be some random famous guy) who they are absolutely insane about will see how much of a shining beacon of righteous purity and kindness and become super duper friends with them.

Did I mention this is absolutely insane?
 

Cavan

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Racism and misogyny are the fun buzz words to throw about with wild abandon.
What baffles me the most is that Tina doesn't even speak in one manner, she switches between a few different ways of behaving more or less at random.
 

Neverhoodian

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If I was a black person, I think I would be more offended that people would associate "badonkadonk" and "fine ass lady" as "black-speak."
 

Trucken

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Aaaaw, I use the word 'badonkadonk'... I'm racist and I didn't even know it...
 

rob_simple

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I think the worst thing we can do with this shit is give it any attention. This is the worst kind of crusade: fighting against an invisible enemy only you are convinced exists, when every one else on the planet thinks you're just a fucking goofball.

Although, now I'm worried that I'm the racist one, because I always assumed Tiny Tina was meant to be an exaggerated stereotype of a citizen from one of the more trigger-happy US states.
 

bastardofmelbourne

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So far at least forty-five posters think it isn't racist and none think it is, so...I would call that a "consensus."

It's pretty silly that this is even a thing, is what I'm getting at.

Edit: Apparently the guy who sparked the whole mess (Mike Sacco) is catching angry gamer flak on his Twitter from it and started circling the wagons in response. This is exactly what the Internet needs; white moral crusaders tilting at racist windmills and then having their position validated by the backlash they've stirred up.

Nothing useful is going to come out of this. I find the whole thing depressing.
 

Drizzitdude

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On snap she said badonkadonk. RACISM! Everyone gather round! We must go on an overreaction crusade!
 

bananafishtoday

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WoW Killer said:
bananafishtoday said:
Intent isn't important; what matters is the actual content. "It wasn't meant to be racist" isn't a valid defense if the work ends up being racist anyway
Bollocks. You're talking of political incorrectness, not racism. You can accidentally say something politically incorrect. You don't accidentally hate people of other races. You don't accidentally believe a race to be inferior to another. You don't accidentally keep slaves or commit genocide. Words aren't racist; only the people saying them can be racist.
"Unknowingly" would be a better word than "accidentally." It's entirely possible to write something that suggests one race is inherently superior to another without realizing how/why it suggests that. This doesn't mean the writer is a bad person, it just means they need to educate themself. Responding to criticism by saying "I don't recognize that I'm doing anything wrong, therefore I'm not doing anything wrong" is just taking refuge in ignorance.

bastardofmelbourne said:
I think a better analogy would be if you were unaware that "bank" could denote the shore of a river, and when I pointed that out, you explained that wasn't what you meant and went on to state that my drawing that conclusion was invalid or unreasonable.

In this respect, I think the writer did exactly what he should have. A few people said they thought Tiny Tina was problematic. The writer put the question to the public so he could get enough information to form an opinion that took into account this new data. Too often you see people in that position deny that that was their intention (even if that's true) and go on to use their intention as a justification for not taking others' perspectives into account. (Often leading to cringeworthy "I'm sorry that you were offended" non-apologies.)

I'm reminded of that blog post by the lead writer of DA3 on female perspectives (link [http://dgaider.tumblr.com/post/36214913229/the-female-perspective-in-game-development]):
We were sitting down to peer review a plot [...] As it happened, most of the guys went first. Typical stuff? some stuff was good, some stuff needed work, etc. etc. Then one of the female writers went, and she brought up an issue. A big issue. It had to do with a sexual situation in the plot, which she explained could easily be interpreted as a form of rape.

It wasn't intended that way. In fact, the writer of the plot was mortified. The intention was that it come across as creepy and subverting? but authorial intention is often irrelevant, and we must always consider how what we write will be interpreted. In this case, it was not a long trip for the person playing through the plot to see what was happening at a slightly different angle, and it was no longer good-creepy. It was bad-creepy. It was discomforting and not cool at all. And this female writer was not alone. All the other women at the table nodded their heads, and had noted the same thing in their critiques. So we discussed it, changes were made, and everything was better. Crisis averted.

All good, right? That's what these reviews are for.

Here's the thing: after the meeting was over, it struck me how sharply divided the reviewers were on gender lines. The guys involved, all reasonable and liberal-minded fellows I assure you (including me!) all automatically took the intended viewpoint of the author and didn't see the issue. The girls had all taken the other side of the encounter, and saw it completely differently? all of them. As soon as it was pointed out, it was obvious? but why hadn't we seen it?
Anyway, it's not so much holding the recipient's perspective over that of the sender as it is recognizing that the sender is the one crafting the message, and thus the responsibility of crafting an unambiguous message falls on them. (This is exacerbated by the fact that content creation has one-to-many rather than one-to-one correspondence. If a sender has a specific intent, they need to recognize that multiple interpretations are possible and tailor their messages accordingly.) Some people will always interpret things differently. But if a large group of people draw a conclusion you didn't intend, it's your responsibility to learn enough about their perspective to make an informed judgement as to whether it's "Well, that's just your opinion" vs. "Y'know, I never looked at it that way."

And as for "riverbank" vs. "badonkadonk..." who's to say they don't have the same content? What's a word but a symbol that has achieved some level of consensus-based meaning? "Badonkadonk" has the same denotation within our group of two as "riverbank" does within the group of English-speakers, and the same lack thereof within the groups of human pop - 2 and human pop - English-speakers respectively! (This paragraph is meant to be playful rather than srs.)