Poll: but, I KNOW the earth is flat!

Chrinik

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Also, i have a question that pretty much cannot be answered in the next 100 years for sure.

"If the universe is unmeasurably big and keeps expanding to this day, where does it expand into?"

I puzzled endless people with this question.
Probably the correct answer is "nothing" but since nothing doesn´t exist, how can something expand into it...and so on, it´s a cycle of death that can only be solved by traveling there and seeing it.
 

Arkhangelsk

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Well, I've read parts of Ayn Rand's Objectivist Epystomology, and it phrased my thoughts quite nicely. Even if we would live in an illusion, why shouldn't we then inhabit it like normal? You do something wrong, the "illusion" punishes you, do something right, it rewards you. Everything can be confirmed through observation. Sure, there might be an alternate reality, hell, I even use it as my theory for God and Heaven, but it doesn't serve us in this existence.

I ask everyday if this is all real, but it doesn't matter f I live in a figment of my imagination, cause I will still be living in it for a long time, and I've learned the ins and outs of it. So why not play it cool like I've done all my life?

Of course, if you really want to get in to conspiracy theories too, you can always say that the moon landing was a fake.
 

ZephrC

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Look, it's simple. You have to assume that your senses are directly effected by an objective reality that surrounds you. They are limited, as is your ability to rationally process them, so they can frequently be quite deceptive, but if you don't assume that you exist in a reality that functions and effects you in a consistent manner you simply can't ever know anything. Have fun with that if it makes you feel better, but I don't see how it could possibly ever do you any good. Even if it were true.

So yes, technically we can't ever "know" anything, and it's good to question your most basic assumptions every now and then just to make sure they still hold up, but there's simply no point in thinking about this subject for long, because the only possible conclusions are that either things work pretty much how we think they do and we simply need to fine tune and adjust our knowledge as we gain new evidence, or the Earth could turn inside-out in an attempt to impregnate your seven-legged automobile.
 

Arkhangelsk

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Chrinik said:
Also, i have a question that pretty much cannot be answered in the next 100 years for sure.

"If the universe is unmeasurably big and keeps expanding to this day, where does it expand into?"

I puzzled endless people with this question.
Probably the correct answer is "nothing" but since nothing doesn´t exist, how can something expand into it...and so on, it´s a cycle of death that can only be solved by traveling there and seeing it.
I believe the theory that the universe is an endless loop. Travel far enough in one direction, and you'll end up back where you started. I forgot who came up with that theory.
 

OrdinaryGuy

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Technically there is no way to be 100% certain of anything. Science can only go so far to suggest one thing over another but to say that something is absolutely 100% true would be to deny using science itself. There is always a chance, no matter how small, that another test can produce different results.
 

Epitome

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Ameatypie said:
Being an epistemology (a branch of philosophy) student, I naturally ask questions. The main question, the main focus of the course is around "how do we KNOW what we know?". Here is a little background knowledge to help you out when it comes to answering this...

Plato, an ancient philosopher, defined knowledge as a "justified true belief." This is the definition of knowledge that is commonly accepted as THE definition of knowledge by almost all philosophers today. You must recognize knowledge as something that is a) specific to individuals, and b) attached to emotion. Back in the day, people KNEW that the earth was flat because it was justified (they could see!), true to individuals, and people believed it. They KNEW, this was their knowledge. The reason there cannot be knowledge without emotion is because believing something requires emotion as a backing force.

Anyways, the question! Do we REALLY know what we know? How can you be certain that, say, you are reading this? What is telling you that you are reading this? How do you know your computer is the color that it is? How do you know who your mother is? How do you know that you look as you do? How do you know the earth is round?

I have formulated my own answer to this and will update here soon, so keep checking back!
I cant know that you have formulated an answer to this?
 

Epitome

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Chrinik said:
Also, i have a question that pretty much cannot be answered in the next 100 years for sure.

"If the universe is unmeasurably big and keeps expanding to this day, where does it expand into?"

I puzzled endless people with this question.
Probably the correct answer is "nothing" but since nothing doesn´t exist, how can something expand into it...and so on, it´s a cycle of death that can only be solved by traveling there and seeing it.
Why cant nothing exist?

I liek to think of the universes expansion as :

The who plane of reality was made of nothing, then teh big bang happened, and the universe which is made up primarily of nothing also but contains matter has been expanding into the pure nothing area of the plane of existence.
 

sephiroth1991

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dragon_of_red said:
/head explodes...
/Tries to piece the bits back together/ You happy Ameatypie

OT:I beleve that what we beleve is true can change, then we just beleve that logic
 

klakkat

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Epitome said:
Chrinik said:
Also, i have a question that pretty much cannot be answered in the next 100 years for sure.

"If the universe is unmeasurably big and keeps expanding to this day, where does it expand into?"

I puzzled endless people with this question.
Probably the correct answer is "nothing" but since nothing doesn´t exist, how can something expand into it...and so on, it´s a cycle of death that can only be solved by traveling there and seeing it.
Why cant nothing exist?

I liek to think of the universes expansion as :

The who plane of reality was made of nothing, then teh big bang happened, and the universe which is made up primarily of nothing also but contains matter has been expanding into the pure nothing area of the plane of existence.
Strictly speaking, "nothing" does exist; though it is a concept that is about as difficult to understand as "infinity." The two are reciprocal concepts; understanding one necessarily implies some understanding of the other.

However, the notion that the universe can expand is a matter of definition only. If the universe is all matter/energy, then it can expand as the matter/energy moves farther away from other matter/energy. If you define the universe as "everything that exists" then it cannot logically expand; it already encompasses everything, so there is no thing that it can expand to contain that it does not already contain. As such, whether the universe is expanding or not is merely a matter of definition.
 

Daniel_Rosamilia

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Ameatypie said:
O lolz. Real.... specific to the person?
Yep, just like time. Time is only relevant in the eyes of the beholder.
And THAT just came from a gaming-addicted 15-year-old.
Yeah, go ahead and sue me for saying stuff that sprouts from absolute nothingness e.g. MY MIND.
 

maninahat

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Even if we don't know what we know, we might as well assume we are correct. Likewise, whenever someone brings up the question "how do we know that all the world around us is not just a figment of our imagination?", the answer is we don't, but it would be pointless to use that as an excuse to not carry on about your daily business. By assuming it is all real, we safeguard against the possibility that it does all turn out to be real. If the World is fake, then you haven't lost anything by playing along the whole time anyway.
 

SnipErlite

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Ameatypie said:
Do we REALLY know what we know?
Nope - we know bugger all.

All we think we know is what out brain interprets from its surroundings. Nothing we think we know may in fact be true.

But how else would we know?

How can we prove any different?
 

Chrinik

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klakkat said:
Epitome said:
Chrinik said:
snip
Strictly speaking, "nothing" does exist; though it is a concept that is about as difficult to understand as "infinity." The two are reciprocal concepts; understanding one necessarily implies some understanding of the other.

However, the notion that the universe can expand is a matter of definition only. If the universe is all matter/energy, then it can expand as the matter/energy moves farther away from other matter/energy. If you define the universe as "everything that exists" then it cannot logically expand; it already encompasses everything, so there is no thing that it can expand to contain that it does not already contain. As such, whether the universe is expanding or not is merely a matter of definition.
Yes, nothing can exist, practically, nothing is the absence of everything.
But the concept, as you said, is pretty hard to grasp and even harder to explain.
Logically speaking however, nothing cannot "exist" nothing is "non-existance" in it´s truest form...

In the easiest way, the best example of nothing would be the space between atoms and their neutrons...
 

Nimbus

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The only thing in life that is certain, is that questions like that are fucking stupid. If we are assuming something to be true, we probably have a damn good reason to do so.
 

StarStruckStrumpets

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I don't know whether I exist or not, this could be one very highly evolved computer game in which the NPCs are given free-will, or not. All I know is, I enjoy whatever existance this is, so I get on with it.

I believe this answer pretty much kills all questions you have to ask.
 

Dr Ampersand

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We don't know as our senses could be flawed and our ability to think could easily be flawed and incorrect. What we see and feel as a chair in reality could easily actually be a table. Thus we pretty much say fuck it and assume our way of thinking is correct which allows us to use logic to prove and justify stuff. E.g
A "The Earth is spherical"
B"How can you be sure?"
A"I can use my knowledge of planets as well as my telescopes and satellites to prove they are"
B"How can you be sure that they actually show you what actually is?"
A"Because I used logic to prove the theory behind how they work as well as experiments to prove that they do so"
B"But how can you prove that what they gave you wasn't a fluke?"
A"Because the Theory I created was proven true by my experiments which I did multiple times for reliability"
B"But how can you prove that your theory was created in a way to give you the correct theory?"
A"Because I'm capable of logic and justification of my statements"
B"But how do you know that your logic is correct?"
A"Because lots of other people agree and we all got the same result"
B" But how do you know that everyone's logic isn't flawed and that we're all wrong?"
A"Because we all said so and if you can disagree you can damn well get the fuck out of our universe, besides, what I'm hearing you say and what your hear me say could be different for all I know"
 

Jekken6

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w@rew0lf said:
Well if we know that we don't know but we know that we can't know anything. Then what do we really know? Nothing? Or everything?
*plays X-files music*

On topic: I try not to think about this sort of thing much
 

Deacon Cole

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Ameatypie said:
You must recognize knowledge as something that is a) specific to individuals, and b) attached to emotion.
Emotion is not a basis for knowledge. Emotions are irrational. They are chemical reactions to stimuli that compels an individual into certain behaviors. Thought never enters into it. Hence why I said they are irrational.

This is why scientific method was developed. It helps to weed out emotion and other human fails so that the truth can be found and, more importantly, confirmed. Careful speakers will couch any scientifically confirm knowledge as "based on the currently available evidence" or something similar. I think that would be a bit much for everyday conversation.

I don't think your definition of knowledge quoted above is knowledge but belief. Beliefs are specific to individuals and attached to emotion. People did not know the Earth was flat. They believed the Earth was flat.

Knowledge and belief often go hand in hand, but they are distinct concepts.

Knowledge is just the raw facts. By facts I do not mean things that are true. For instance, I know that god created man out of the dust in its own image and created woman out of one of the man's ribs. However, I do not believe a word of this. Knowledge is distinct from belief. You should not confuse the two as it will make your life difficult.

Do we REALLY know what we know? How can you be certain that, say, you are reading this? What is telling you that you are reading this? How do you know your computer is the color that it is? How do you know who your mother is? How do you know that you look as you do? How do you know the earth is round?
Golly. That really does not follow from the previous paragraph about knowledge/belief. You seem to be mixing solipsism into it here, which is an unrelated topic. So I won't address that.

As for the knowledge/belief items here, I can see two that we can work with. The shape of the Earth and the identity of my mother.

The shape of the Earth I'll discard because I honestly do not care and no reason for anyone else to care unless they travel. Most people do not travel. Many do not even leave the town or city they were born. The shape of the Earth is a trivia question, so it is moot.

That leaves the identity of one's mother, which is more pragmatic. We tend to accept the person who identifies herself as our mother is the woman for gave birth to us. But this is not always true. Many are adopted. Some come to find out that the woman they thought was their mother is actually their grandmother and their older sister is really their mother.

When we learn something, we tend to accept the first facts we receive and then resist changing them. That's where emotion can impede progress. By and large, it makes sense to retain the knowledge we gain until there is a reason to question it. There is no reason to think you are adopted unless you notice a lack of familial resemblance or something similar. Perhaps not even that as adoptive parents often tell their children they are adopted.

This is the nature of knowledge. We take what facts we find until new facts are discovered.

The nature of belief is to resist new facts, regardless of how poorly justified the old facts and how well justified the new facts. This is why emotion is dangerous and should be guarded against. Otherwise we would still be praying over black plague and small pox victims.
 

Spacewolf

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Ameatypie said:
Being an epistemology (a branch of philosophy) student, I naturally ask questions. The main question, the main focus of the course is around "how do we KNOW what we know?". Here is a little background knowledge to help you out when it comes to answering this...

Plato, an ancient philosopher, defined knowledge as a "justified true belief." This is the definition of knowledge that is commonly accepted as THE definition of knowledge by almost all philosophers today. You must recognize knowledge as something that is a) specific to individuals, and b) attached to emotion. Back in the day, people KNEW that the earth was flat because it was justified (they could see!), true to individuals, and people believed it. They KNEW, this was their knowledge. The reason there cannot be knowledge without emotion is because believing something requires emotion as a backing force.

Anyways, the question! Do we REALLY know what we know? How can you be certain that, say, you are reading this? What is telling you that you are reading this? How do you know your computer is the color that it is? How do you know who your mother is? How do you know that you look as you do? How do you know the earth is round?

I have formulated my own answer to this and will update here soon, so keep checking back!
no one thought the earth was flat for about 1000 years before columbuses time in fact the radius of the earth had been calculated to a fairly acrate degree, columbus actually thought the world was pear shaped and the reason he couldnt get funding for his trip was that his calculations where obviously wrong. as for how do we know now well we have satalites and even in a normal plane you can see the curvature of the earth
 

Red Right Hand

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Feb 23, 2009
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Personally, I think it would be cooler if I was the only person who truly existed and everyone else were just figments of my imagination.