Poll: Capitalism or Communism?

Da pyro man 999

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Aug 24, 2009
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Jak23 said:
I was wondering what the general consensus is, please comment and tell us why.
My vote goes to Capitalism, because imo if you say Communism, you haven't seen/been in a Communist country.
Here is my theory, for it is a subject i quite enjoy talking about. First, what we saw in Russia during the soviet union is not what i would call communism, i would call it either Stalin ism or Leninism (depending on what time period we are talking about). And if you want to find a form of communism that worked, look no further than Cuba, it has worked well for decades and the people seem to be happy with it.

A small addendum, china is no where near communistic as well.(I would probably call it Maoism)
 

Pain Is Inevitable

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Social democracy. Capitalism is a necessary, but ruthless force that must be tempered by government oversight, progressive taxation and social services to prevent the rich from turning into barons and the poor into serfs.
 

gnordsiek

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Communism or socialism never work and you can look to history and current European conditions for proof. Capiltalism could be improved by hammering the greedy and corrupt when they get caught. That statement would cover both politicians and the business types.
 

gnordsiek

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Da pyro man 999 said:
Jak23 said:
I was wondering what the general consensus is, please comment and tell us why.
My vote goes to Capitalism, because imo if you say Communism, you haven't seen/been in a Communist country.
Here is my theory, for it is a subject i quite enjoy talking about. First, what we saw in Russia during the soviet union is not what i would call communism, i would call it either Stalin ism or Leninism (depending on what time period we are talking about). And if you want to find a form of communism that worked, look no further than Cuba, it has worked well for decades and the people seem to be happy with it.

A small addendum, china is no where near communistic as well.(I would probably call it Maoism)
How does Cuba work if they have to rely on outside help? Russia in the past and currently Venezuela. I have also heard that they are considering bring back capitalism by encouraging tourism like it was in the 50's.
 

MrTub

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gnordsiek said:
Communism or socialism never work and you can look to history and current European conditions for proof. Capiltalism could be improved by hammering the greedy and corrupt when they get caught. That statement would cover both politicians and the business types.
Really? I didn't know that Norway&Denmark&Finland&Sweden had gone bankrupt or removed their socialism policies...


I guess you learn something new every day.
 

Da pyro man 999

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gnordsiek said:
Da pyro man 999 said:
Jak23 said:
I was wondering what the general consensus is, please comment and tell us why.
My vote goes to Capitalism, because imo if you say Communism, you haven't seen/been in a Communist country.
Here is my theory, for it is a subject i quite enjoy talking about. First, what we saw in Russia during the soviet union is not what i would call communism, i would call it either Stalin ism or Leninism (depending on what time period we are talking about). And if you want to find a form of communism that worked, look no further than Cuba, it has worked well for decades and the people seem to be happy with it.

A small addendum, china is no where near communistic as well.(I would probably call it Maoism)
How does Cuba work if they have to rely on outside help? Russia in the past and currently Venezuela. I have also heard that they are considering bring back capitalism by encouraging tourism like it was in the 50's.
You have a good point, but i was thinking more along the lines of communism in it's most succesful form , as i'm sure you'll agree that it works better than any other form seen so far.
 

Rottweiler

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"An existing example of society that holds the most things in common with Communism is the internet society."

The internet is available only to those who can reach it. Reaching it requires Money/Resources to do so, and therefore is not, by any real definition, Communist.


"Most users hold equal status (though levels of subjective credibility can vary). Not because any central authority decrees it to be so; they just do. There is no distinction in status between American users and others, or males users and female users, employed or unemployed. Those distinctions only exist subjectively in the minds of individuals."

I might argue- since any Site you attend is owned by someone, who ultimately decides what you can and cannot do. However, you seem to be confusing 'free-form' with 'Communist'.



"It is governed by consent of the various communities. You can move to preferable rules of another community (or create your own) if you wish."

Where does this equate with Communism? Any reasonable person could take the above and apply it to a number of systems- and Communism wouldn't be high on my list of examples.



"You can make videos, articles, mods and blogs, and show them on public platforms like youtube if you desire. You don't need to prove credentials to obtain and be tied to an employment contract to do so. Other youtube videos and users are not your competition unless you subjectively perceive them to be."

...and this applies how to an example of 'Communism'? You are confusing me a great deal.



"There is complete freedom to pursue passions and interests at will. You can consume as much from the internet as you wish (or can)."

...or can. Or can Pay For. Since we've established you require A) a Computer and B) an internet connection. You *might* try to argue that free Wi Fi is becoming more common, but that doesn't take care of A).



"You don't have to work like a drone to acquire the capital to buy the freedom to make and do what you wish (at a pace and vigour determined by the market), or to keep up with Moviebob's latest vid."

Communism. Not seeing where you're making any kind of connection.



"Sites and free services would be ad-less, internet security and other digital software would all be free and torrent sharing of popular works would be legal and a good thing... if people's livelihoods didn't depend on the Capitalist outside world."

And in your opinion, the levels of quality would of course be the same, if everyone not only did it for Free but were, in fact, *required* to do so for Free?



"I concede that the internet requires support from Capitalism in the outside world. But inside the digital world; there is no such need for a Capitalist system to manage it."

I don't agree. I also don't know why you seem to blame Capitalism like it's some kind of Sentient Being.



"Though it is advocated as a system based on nothing more than the notion of free, voluntary and universally beneficial trade; the system demands a proportion of unemployment and scarcity (artificial if need be). No matter what you try to do, the misery has to go somewhere."


And though Communism is advocated as a system based on nothing more than the notion of Equal Resources for Everyone- it also promotes a system wherein Merit ceases to be relevant. There is no motivation to Exceed, when the reward is the same as for those who produce nothing.

Capitalism, at least, motivates people by offering very real and very reliable rewards for doing more. When there is no reward, few will do anything but the required minimum.
 

BaronUberstein

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Anoni Mus said:
BaronUberstein said:
Anoni Mus said:
BaronUberstein said:
orangeban said:
Communism! Seriously, it may not of worked for the other countries who tried it, but if you get honest leaders and slowly (slowly!) transistion the country, then shit'll be just fine.

Capitalism is morally unjustifiable.
Communism is morally unjustifiable. So no matter how hard I work, no matter what I invent, create, imagine, I get no more than the guy hitting stuff with a hammer? I call BS on that.
Wrong.
It has been proven that people create and invent things not because of the money but because they want to feel themselves fulfilled.
There's a study that shows that for non intellectual work, the more money you get the better and more you produce. However if you have worker that has as his job to create something, the more you pay the worse he does. Because the stimulation doesn't come from money.
Here it is better explained - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

Also, to everyone here. Start learning that in Communism doesn't mean everyone should get the same thing, that's absurd. But it does mean that everyone has the right to live and have good life conditions no matter where or what type of work he does. Besides in Communism the means of production aren't owned by private corporations, so there's no exploitation.
Reward or adequate return is necessary for most people. Be that return friendship, money, or some other item or service, people do things for something back.

Communism doesn't work, and if I ever found myself in a Communist society I'd be the first to take up arms. Communism economically doesn't work, we've seen that repeatedly. Even Lenin was forced to introduce elements of private industry early on in the USSR just to keep it from collapsing in it's beginning. Using thousands of bureaucrats to determine prices instead of the free market is criminally inefficient. But if you're a communist, it's clear that you have refused to learn from both history and economic theory and I doubt I can do anything to convince you that communism doesn't work. But communism is the idea that everyone gets what they NEED, not "frivolous" things beyond that. Communal farms were hardly luxurious. It's the idea that nobody should be above anybody else no matter what, and that idea is what I am so against. If somebody works harder or creates something people want, they deserve more. They deserve something for their time, effort, and creativity.

Corporations aren't perfect, but one must understand that the administration of a company is made up of people just as much as the non-administrative staff. Corruption should be addressed on an individual basis, as that is how at least western society works, individualism, individual rights.

I won't even get started about trade unions asking for more money and benefits when the entire industry is in a downturn and nobody is getting raises.

Also, Youtube is hardly a valid source. I'll take my econ textbooks over any youtube video any day.
Talk to me when you've watched the video. If you don't want to watch on youtube because you're full of preconception search this site http://www.thersa.org/

Yes I've learn history, I love history, and I had economy for 2 years. Not much, but it doesn't matter.
The truth I know what Capitalism is about and what Communism is. And I put Communism over Capitalism any time.
Well then we have nothing to discuss, because as far as I'm concerned you must be delusional to think Communism would work or even be something to work towards.

Have a good day. No ill will is meant towards you, I simply don't see the point of discussing it with you.
 

LilithSlave

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Communism seems flawed. It may be a misinterpretation, but it seems flawed. If Left Communism is the only form of real Communism, I'd say I agree with it, though.

Capitalism, on the other hand, is sheer exploitation.
 

alrekr

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Rottweiler said:
Everyone is 'equal' in Communism...except, well someone needs to be in charge of things, right? And someone needs to make sure everyone is on the same page...and that someone needs to have the power to enforce it...and...and...
Incorrect!

In a true communist society there is no one person of supreme power. In the socialist stage (different to what many people know as socialism) there is a dictatorship of the people that function to adjust economic working and such other items in order to create the conditions where no authority figure is required.

When wealth is shared people will eventualy ask why the power is not shared it is at this point the need for said authority is no longer needed or wanted; thus it will cease to be.

Communism is more focused around sharing the means of production and co-operative ownership.

Look read up on Karl Marx and actual commusim before making statements like that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism
http://www.marxism.org.uk/
http://www.marxists.org/subject/students/index.htm


I would also say that this book is rather good at providing a easy to understand explanation:
http://www.introducingbooks.com/book/view/marxism

The one on capitalism was also quite good.
 

bismarck55

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Capitalism. Too bad it doesn't exist in North America anymore. It died with corporate welfare and bank bailouts.

You people who are advocating more tightly controlled capitalism are being duped into supporting socialized corporate losses and privatized corporate profits.
 

Korolev

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Jul 4, 2008
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My problem with communism is how often it degenerates into a one-party system. Communists (and I was one of them once, before I turned 18) are some of the LEAST tolerant people I have ever met. I am serious. You'll never met another bunch of people who are so argumentative about the slightest thing. The vast majority of communists that I've met hate each other more than they hate the capitalists. Every single one of them thinks that "their" interpretation of communism is the "right" interpretation, and they vehemently despise anyone else who disagrees with them even by a small amount.

Communists, as a general rule, believe that THEY AND ONLY THEY are fit to run the world. They have this immense ego in which they literally believe that they are the literal saviours of the world, destined by the forces of history itself to lead the nation and "liberate the people". To a communist, the world is completely black-and-white: Capitalism is wholly evil, Communism is wholly good.

When you have such a world view, isn't it natural that you'd want to ensure that only communists are in charge? Communists cannot, and will not, accept even the very existence of alternative views and economic/political systems because they are a "threat" to their vision of the future. Communists are also very paranoid: Constantly seeing threats and "hidden imperialists" lurking in every corner.

You need to understand the way a communist thinks: They are consumed by the three psychological demons of dictators - which are: "Absolute Certainty", "Belief in Manifest Destiny" and "Rank Paranoia".

Communists are ABSOLUTELY certain about their ideology. Their ideology is PERFECT. Despite being atheists, Communists are actually very religious - they just put ideology on the pedestal, instead of religion. They are supremely unflexible - if reality contradicts their beloved ideology, reality is dismissed. If their great "Five Year Plans" fail, it wasn't because the plan itself was garbage, they think, it's because THERE MUST BE WRECKERS! AND IMPERIALISTS! AND SABOTEURS! AROUND EVERY CORNER! This fundamentalist mentality of "The Party is ALWAYS RIGHT, our ideology is ALWAYS RIGHT" leads to a system in which any failures are blamed on everyone else. Introspection, doubt and self-reflection are almost forbidden for Party Members - they are taught to never doubt the Party, never doubt the State.

Communists also belief in a version MANIFEST DESTINY. A communist sincerely believes that communism is the literal end-state of human social development. They believe that a true communist state is a LITERAL PARADISE WHERE NOTHING EVER GOES WRONG AND EVERYONE IS ALWAYS HAPPY ALL THE TIME. Just look at the nauseating propaganda produced by the Soviet Union, Maoist China (during the 60's) and the current government of North Korea - they produce a constant barrage of propaganda involving nothing but smiling families and farmers laughing at huge crops. It VERY closely resembles some of the water-paintings I've seen Jehova's Witness people produce to depict what they imagine Heaven to be like. When you sincerely believe that you are destined by history no less to rule over everything to bring about a literal paradise on Earth and end literally every single bad thing ever, you start getting a little zealous. You start thinking that the ends justify the means. You start thinking that sometimes you might have to break a few "eggs" to make an omelet. It's for the future right? It's for the greater good, right? After all, we're the GOOD GUYS right? So what if we have to sent people to siberia, or "interrogate" a few people - it's for the people, right? It's for the future, right? So goes the thinking of a communist.

Communists are also consumed by RANK PARANOIA. It's not hard to understand why: They were, and are, persecuted. Not as much today as they used to be, but they still are. Communists view themselves as outcasts, outsiders, as people on the fringe, divorced from the way society works. They constantly see people trying to subvert them, deny them a platform, or insult them. I mean, for a communist, their ideas make perfect and total sense to them: which is why they believe that insidious forces MUST be preventing them from achieving victory. They view themselves as the smartest people in the entire world, and all their plans are absolutely brilliant... which is why they are damn damn damn quick to blame everyone else, even fellow colleagues, whenever anything goes wrong. They are absolutely intolerant of any criticism - please, if you are a university student, go to a communist meeting. I have. They are the biggest bunch of hissy-fit throwing whiners that I have ever seen. They CONSTANTLY denounce each other, constantly throw barbed comments at each other, constantly berate each other over the SLIGHTEST difference. They believe that almost everyone is out to get them, and that they and they alone have the TRUE interpretation of Marx and Lenin and that everyone else is trying to prevent them from achieving their GLORIOUS vision! When communists think that way about each other, is it any wonder why they become paranoid basket cases when they get into power?

True communists don't want competition. They don't want competing ideas. They want obedience. They want to run things their way, which they believe to be the only way. They are so consumed by a passion to protect the GLORIOUS REVOLUTION that they will go to any lengths to protect it. Communism is perfect, therefore the party is perfect - thus, any criticism of the party is interpreted as criticism of communism, which is interpreted as "backsliding" or "capitalist roading" or "latent imperialism" WHICH MUST BE WEEDED OUT. Communists always talk about the "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" - and since they are the self-appointed true representatives of the proletariat, it means a dictatorship by the party.

It's funny how often communists kill people in order to protect "THE PEOPLE". It's almost as if communists have a political concept of "The People" which is divorced from the flesh-and-blood people on the streets.
 

Corocan

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Apr 3, 2010
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http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080413154856AAMCSzq


This can pretty much explain why communism is worse than capitalism.
 

thylasos

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Aug 12, 2009
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Secular social democracy with nationalised utilities, public transport, and healthcare.