Poll: Capitalism VS Communism VS Socialism
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Socialism is great in all the practices that I've seen... Which are pretty limited. But every socialist community I've been in (namely kibbutzim in Israel) are happy, thriving, and dedicated communities. I say dedicated because they all work towards production of some common product, share most everything between them, and are the friendliest community I've ever been privy to.
All these societies have one thing in common, one fatal flaw that prevents them from ever functioning...
They tolerate failure.
Windows Vista is crap? why don't you rebel by getting Windows XP, a product made by the exact same company, sold for the exact same price.
The entire concept of a monopoly is that whenever someone gets one, they ultimately use it to produce cheap products that fail.
Thus, regardless of whether you live in a socialist system, a communist system, or a capitalist system, there will always be monopolies, and there will always inevitably be failure.
The cultural change needed to make human societies function better is simple.
Stop tolerating failure.
It's a screw up and die philosophy that would have killed everyone in the Bush administration nearly a decade ago.
They tolerate failure.
Windows Vista is crap? why don't you rebel by getting Windows XP, a product made by the exact same company, sold for the exact same price.
The entire concept of a monopoly is that whenever someone gets one, they ultimately use it to produce cheap products that fail.
Thus, regardless of whether you live in a socialist system, a communist system, or a capitalist system, there will always be monopolies, and there will always inevitably be failure.
The cultural change needed to make human societies function better is simple.
Stop tolerating failure.
It's a screw up and die philosophy that would have killed everyone in the Bush administration nearly a decade ago.
Anarchy = pointless. Having no government is stupid, and if by Anarchy we mean the "decentralised power" type of anarchy, that's also stupid.
Communism = I think it needs another chance.
Socialism = Well, that's Old Labour for us Brits, and I think we need it back.
Capitalism = The problem here is that we've had capitalism for thousands of years, and it's thousands of years out of date. The idea of capitalism is the harder you work, the more you earn, which might have worked when we were all labourers, but in modern society people are put at a disadvantage the moment they are born because of class, race and background. Not only that, but the jobs which have the hardest workers are usually at the bottom, and it's the poncy toffs who haven't done an honest day's work that are at the top.
So let's all be like Nietzsche, say screw the modern society that is being crushed by millenia of crap and start afresh, in my opinion with communism, and if that doesn't work socialism is a viable alternative.
Communism = I think it needs another chance.
Socialism = Well, that's Old Labour for us Brits, and I think we need it back.
Capitalism = The problem here is that we've had capitalism for thousands of years, and it's thousands of years out of date. The idea of capitalism is the harder you work, the more you earn, which might have worked when we were all labourers, but in modern society people are put at a disadvantage the moment they are born because of class, race and background. Not only that, but the jobs which have the hardest workers are usually at the bottom, and it's the poncy toffs who haven't done an honest day's work that are at the top.
So let's all be like Nietzsche, say screw the modern society that is being crushed by millenia of crap and start afresh, in my opinion with communism, and if that doesn't work socialism is a viable alternative.
Anyone think that maybe the reason all the governments are imperfect, is because they are trying to govern too large a body of people? Before, the Native Americans were mentioned. Yeah they faught with each other, yes they had their problems, and yes they were further back in technology. But they only had to rule a small number. The fewer people you have, the fewer you have to please, and the fewer problems you have.
We have governments because everyone wants to 'own' something. Instead of helping your neighbor, we want our neighbors to help us, to give us things. Countries can still have a common interest and get along, while not being under the same government. I honestly think if our populations were split into smaller groups, and those who wanted certain styles of government all lived together, they'd all be much, much happier.
We have governments because everyone wants to 'own' something. Instead of helping your neighbor, we want our neighbors to help us, to give us things. Countries can still have a common interest and get along, while not being under the same government. I honestly think if our populations were split into smaller groups, and those who wanted certain styles of government all lived together, they'd all be much, much happier.
I have to say that the best system to me seems to be a social democracy that is slightly shifted to the right. Meaning that the state would provide enough for a minimal existence (enough to eat and heat off) but so much that (without a good reason) you had to work. Pretty much what we have in the UK, the benifit (for as much as the conservatives moan about it) isn't enough to live off, come on, 60 quid per week? Maybe, provided your not paying for accommodation
In other words: social-democracy, the same political movement where among others the Brittish Labour Party, the German SPD and the Dutch PvdA belong to. Personally I call myself something between a (relatively progressive) social-democrat and a social-liberal. The social part of socialism had actually proved to work really well, the original economic ideas however failed miserably.Joeshie said:
I wouldn't have said what I said if I didn't know what it was!Ragdrazi said:
Anarchists believe that without a government, people would come together through common sense and form a effective society.
What would that do? Create a new government that would essentially turn into a form of government that the people were trying to get away from in the first place.
I don't really view Anarchy as a form of government, more like hitting the reset button on the current government. I also believe that hitting a reset button on a government would be opening the door for all the animals we call people to have free reign to do what they want until a new government is established. I'm not saying this would happen with small scale governments but in a larger picture, like US cities such as Detroit or Los Angeles where people are already out of control, it would result in chaos.
Well saidartician said:
/thread
Communism never happend because you still needed a ruling class to guide in the transition (I forget the actual name for them)
Pure Capitalism would never happen because then people would be over exploited and the government needs to step in and protect them. Also the government doesn't want to give up its power
All countries are socialist to some degree.
Well that isn't all I know about I just summarized... A whole bunch. If you want to share you're views on it I would be happy to read them. If not, then don't worry about it.Ragdrazi said:
If you posted this poll in Russian or Chinese, or Polish, you would get very different results. Whatever-ism is just a label, all of them has lost all of their meaning in today's world.
What is Capitalism?
An apple is worth whatever a buyer is willing to pay for it. You produce the apple because you A) you believe you can sell it at a profit, and B) you have the money to buy the seed and land, and employ labour. The fact the apple can feed people is irrelevant; if you could make a profit selling shit, you would (just look at EA).
What is Communism?
An apple is worth whatever the state says it is worth. You produce the apple because the Economic Planning Bureau has calculated it is the best thing to produce in order to feed the people. The fact your land is totally unsuitable for growing apples, and you have no farming knowledge whatsoever, is irrelevant; if the Bureau decides the people need to eat apples, then you will grow apples.
What is Socialism?
An apple is worth whatever the buyer's willing to pay AND whatever the state is willing to allow you to sell an apple for. You produce the apple because you like to have apple trees in your garden, if you make a profit it is shared among everyone by taxes, if you make a loss and goes bankrupt the state will make sure you live just as well as everyone else. The fact you might be better at computer programming than growing apples is irrelevant; if you like growing apples and hate programming, then you will grow apples because it doesn't matter if you make a loss doing it.
What is Anarchy?
An apple is worth whatever the guys with the biggest muscles and fanciest guns say it is worth. You produce the apple because someone else is holding a gun to your head and telling you to produce it. The fact the producers of the apple may never get to derive any benefit from producing those apples, is irrelevant; if you don't want to be shot, or starve to death, then you will grow that apple.
I live in the UK, where income tax and National insurance is 33% to 51% of an average person's income. Council housing is provided to everyone who needs it, healthcare, education and motorways are free, unemployment, incapacity, single parent, etc benefits, are more than enough to live on. The government uses subsidies, quotas, grants, import / export duties, corporate and Value Added Taxes, minimum wage laws, and hard coded regulations; all of which has a huge effect the price of goods. So, do I live in a Capitalist or Communist or Socialist society?
In the 21st century we need some new politics beyond this old left wing - right wing stuff of the cold war.
What is Capitalism?
An apple is worth whatever a buyer is willing to pay for it. You produce the apple because you A) you believe you can sell it at a profit, and B) you have the money to buy the seed and land, and employ labour. The fact the apple can feed people is irrelevant; if you could make a profit selling shit, you would (just look at EA).
What is Communism?
An apple is worth whatever the state says it is worth. You produce the apple because the Economic Planning Bureau has calculated it is the best thing to produce in order to feed the people. The fact your land is totally unsuitable for growing apples, and you have no farming knowledge whatsoever, is irrelevant; if the Bureau decides the people need to eat apples, then you will grow apples.
What is Socialism?
An apple is worth whatever the buyer's willing to pay AND whatever the state is willing to allow you to sell an apple for. You produce the apple because you like to have apple trees in your garden, if you make a profit it is shared among everyone by taxes, if you make a loss and goes bankrupt the state will make sure you live just as well as everyone else. The fact you might be better at computer programming than growing apples is irrelevant; if you like growing apples and hate programming, then you will grow apples because it doesn't matter if you make a loss doing it.
What is Anarchy?
An apple is worth whatever the guys with the biggest muscles and fanciest guns say it is worth. You produce the apple because someone else is holding a gun to your head and telling you to produce it. The fact the producers of the apple may never get to derive any benefit from producing those apples, is irrelevant; if you don't want to be shot, or starve to death, then you will grow that apple.
I live in the UK, where income tax and National insurance is 33% to 51% of an average person's income. Council housing is provided to everyone who needs it, healthcare, education and motorways are free, unemployment, incapacity, single parent, etc benefits, are more than enough to live on. The government uses subsidies, quotas, grants, import / export duties, corporate and Value Added Taxes, minimum wage laws, and hard coded regulations; all of which has a huge effect the price of goods. So, do I live in a Capitalist or Communist or Socialist society?
In the 21st century we need some new politics beyond this old left wing - right wing stuff of the cold war.
Why is everyone all bogged down by black & whitism? no one choice is the best, a mixture of capitalism and socialism, is probably the best, anarchy would be interesting but.... yeah.
Well, I'll say that you definitely don't have your brain turned off. I admit that comment was directed to the chaos craving punk band Anarchists, and that the comment I made was a rash generalization. You have obviously done plenty of research about true Anarchism and have thought quite a bit of how it could work, given everyone understands the concept and goes along with the plan... But I don't believe people could come together and establish that sort of effective anarchist system in a state that already has an established government. This is my opinion and obviously can disagree. I realize I'm feeding directly into your closing quote... I guess I can't see putting that much faith into mankind for that sort of change. Thanks for the information!Ragdrazi said:
You live in the UK which is considered to be economically mixed, or socialism. I should know, I lived there for the first 16 years of my life.
Note: 33% to 51%? How much money are you making?
Note: 33% to 51%? How much money are you making?
33% is 22% income tax plus 11% national insurance. 51% is 40% income tax plus 11% national insurance. Most of the working population is in one of these two tax bands. I'm not working.Fondant said: