Poll: Classes -- Do you like them?

[Eipok Kruden]

I'm talking about class systems in role playing games. All role playing games, not just MMORPG's. Personally, I don't like classes much. I find them restricting. I much prefer systems like EVE's, although I do occasionally like them when they're done well, which is mostly just in single player games. I hate systems like WoW's where if your group needs a healer, but you don't have any clerics, someone will have to start a new character and train him up to the necessary level for whatever your group is trying to do. I prefer a system in EVE. If you need a scout, then just get someone to spend a week or two training for a covert ops frigate. If you need a "healer," get someone to spend a week or two training for repair drones. In EVE, you can fill any role without having to start another character. This lets you grow with your character and become attached to your character, it lets you get truly immersed in the game.

So, what do people here prefer? You've heard my opinion, now share yours.

 

[Serenegoose]

I think it really depends on the game. There are loads of games where classes would just seem wrong to me. Arcanum, Fallout, games of that ilk. the character you create should reflect their approach in all things, not their basic job description. On the other hand, sometimes I think that the depth that you can achieve in a hard class system is greater than one you can achieve without - this is because in a game without a hard class system it is almost too easy to create a jack of all trades, and in an effort to stop such an approach being completely unviable, the depth of each skill/profession/spell/whatever choice can be slimmed down. with a class system, you ultimately end up, admittedly due to coercion, with a truly badass example of the archetype, which can make the player feel good in and of itself. Both approaches work depending on how the game is structured to cope with the consequences of it.

If I was FORCED to choose, however, I may admit a bias for the freedom a non-class based system allows. could just be because I love zweihander wielding magi though.

 

[Rossmallo]

I really liked how FFX's one was. A system that SORT of made you have classes to begin with, but when it got to the end of the game you could really start to mess with the classes and get characters with moves they "shouldnt" have. Would you beleive me if I tolf you "my" Yuna could hit 99999 with melee?

 

[rossatdi]

I always thought it makes sense to have them in multiplayer games and not in single player games.

In mutiplayer it facilitates easy identification and provides structure.

In single player they reduce options unnecessarily.

 

[Eipok Kruden]

I think it really depends on the game. There are loads of games where classes would just seem wrong to me. Arcanum, Fallout, games of that ilk. the character you create should reflect their approach in all things, not their basic job description. On the other hand, sometimes I think that the depth that you can achieve in a hard class system is greater than one you can achieve without - this is because in a game without a hard class system it is almost too easy to create a jack of all trades, and in an effort to stop such an approach being completely unviable, the depth of each skill/profession/spell/whatever choice can be slimmed down. with a class system, you ultimately end up, admittedly due to coercion, with a truly badass example of the archetype, which can make the player feel good in and of itself. Both approaches work depending on how the game is structured to cope with the consequences of it.

If I was FORCED to choose, however, I may admit a bias for the freedom a non-class based system allows. could just be because I love zweihander wielding magi though.

Well, EVE Online prevents players from being able to be the "Jack of all Trades" by adding tons of specialized skills that take a long time to train. Someone can be able to fill any role, but it's only possible for someone to be really good at a few. It would take over a decade to learn every skill.

 

[RRilef]

Personally I couldn't care either way. Some games work better with class systems, others work better without. It all depends on how well implemented the class/open-class is.

 

[JemJar]

In general:

Class based in non-solo games, it helps to establish party roles.

Non-class based in solo games, it allows players to pick their destiny, especially Morrowind-eque "learn as you use" systems.

 

[WillSimplyBe]

I'd have to say that I love class systems. It can give characters in RPGs a unique element that seperates them from others. Even if you can multi-class, making a character very flexible, they are more expanded upon their class than totally changing it. I think the biggest example of a bad system was FFXII's license system. The characters became entirely identical to eachother in all but aesthetics. A system where evveryone can learn, get, and use totally everything, In fact, you didn't have to wait too long to learn a ton of that board either.

Also, In MMOs, it has always just seemed better with people in defined roles. Even if you dont go by classes, building a character for a role is basically like creating a class. It adds a whole social aspect, needing to find other people for groups who can fill certain roles. the tanks, the damage dealers, nukers, healers, and the jack-of-all trades classes. All have a special task to do that the rest of a group rely on them for.

I just think a system like that is quite nice.

^_^

 

[DYin01]

About WoW, some classes can fulfill multiple roles. Druids can do every role and paladins can do everything but ranged DPS (mostly people don't care wether DPS is melee of ranged, so in practice paladins can do everything too) or more than just one.

Anyway, I think it's only good that a person has to choose. However, you can't compare WoW to EVE. They're completely different games with different systems. If you want to get good at repairing in EVE you still have to wait an eternity. In that time, you can also make a new character and level it up to where it needs to be in WoW; especially with WotLK. Players get more XP at lower levels now so they level quicklier.

 

[Eipok Kruden]

Anyway, I think it's only good that a person has to choose. However, you can't compare WoW to EVE. They're completely different games with different systems. If you want to get good at repairing in EVE you still have to wait an eternity. In that time, you can also make a new character and level it up to where it needs to be in WoW; especially with WotLK. Players get more XP at lower levels now so they level quicklier.

True, but in EVE, you don't have to create a new character. In EVE, you can become attached to your character instead of managing many characters at once. It helps with immersion, at least in my opinion. That's the reason I like it more than WoW's system. I mean, yes, it does take around the same time as WoW's system, but unlike WoW's, you can stick with one character from beginning to end.

 

[Avatar Roku]

I always thought it makes sense to have them in multiplayer games and not in single player games.

In mutiplayer it facilitates easy identification and provides structure.

In single player they reduce options unnecessarily.

I agree completely. I liked Fallout 3 for many reasons, among them that I could pick any skills without being hemmed in. That said, there is almost a class system in that game: your Tag skills.

 

[WillSimplyBe]

"About WoW, some classes can fulfill multiple roles. Druids can do every role and paladins can do everything but ranged DPS (mostly people don't care wether DPS is melee of ranged, so in practice paladins can do everything too) or more than just one."

Anyway, I think it's only good that a person has to choose. However, you can't compare WoW to EVE. They're completely different games with different systems. If you want to get good at repairing in EVE you still have to wait an eternity. In that time, you can also make a new character and level it up to where it needs to be in WoW; especially with WotLK. Players get more XP at lower levels now so they level quicklier."


Yeah, but pallies and druids still do the job in a more pally/druish way, if my limited memory of WoW serves. Anyway, you can still have a set job system that is rather open ended, letting people do what they want. Many games have systems where you can change a secondary job to further define how you play your certain class. Other games have ways of job promotions, becoming one of a few different things, changing and specifying your role.

*EDIT*
sorry, I dont know the / commands for quoting, lol. ^_^

 

[Eipok Kruden]

sorry, I dont know the / commands for quoting, lol. ^_^

Just press the "quote" button next to the "reply" button. Couldn't be easier.

 

[WillSimplyBe]

sorry, I dont know the / commands for quoting, lol. ^_^

Just press the "quote" button next to the "reply" button. Couldn't be easier.

I couldnt because I was editing a post that I already made, so I meant the text slash commands for quoting or other things. Anyway, pressing it let me know them, lol.

 

[Madshaw]

They can be far too rigid, i end up building my character into what i think would be the coolest "class" for that game

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

It honestly depends. Virtually any game enforces a class sytem or at least a role from moment to moment so the question is kind of moot. In Eve online for example, though I can literally learn to do any particular action or role with a single character, I can only do one at a time. And while one can certainly make a multi-purpose vessel, the general consensus is that the multi-purpose approach is a bit risky at best.

That said, I tend to prefer a classless system. I don't like the idea of re-rolling a character just because I want to try out a different skill set.

 

[ProfessorLayton]

Well I think that classes in shooters are pretty much crap unless you do it right, like Team Fortress 2. Unless it's strictly class based, then it can be absolute crap.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Classes make games stupid and unbalanced. What we need is a more ElderScrolls-like customization system, but more mainstreamed, to keep MMOs and RPGs alive in the future.

One could argue that class based systems actually help enforce balance. If you know specifically what a character's job is, it's far easier to create a balance. In The Elder Scrolls, there is nothing to stop me from wearing nearly impenetrable god armor while casting spells of armageddon. In most MMO's, a classes direct lethality is balanced agains their durability. In general, the more lethal a class is the more vulnerable it is to attack. Using the Elder Scrolls approach, you'd quickly find that if Everyone is a tank in terms of durability and certain attacks or spells are the most lethal that everyone would become a tank wielding those most awesomely powerful spells.

You can see this trend in games like Eve Online. When I started, most of the hardcore PVP crowd flew the supremely lethal gallentian battleships. With their combination of staggering close ranged firepower, powerful drones and wide assortment of devices that could make for a bad day they were nearly unbeatable in 1v1 combat. As the game was rebalanced, and new featurse were added, it was found that smaller, more agile ships could be forced to fly at such incredible speed that they were nearly invulnerable to direct attack and could quickly escape any bad situation. Thus, much of the pvp crowd hopped into the fastest Heavy Assault Ships and flew them in this fashion.

Adding rules that force particular roles seems to lead to an easier balance in my experience. But, as a player, I still prefer the idea that I do not have a class forced upon me. In any single player RPG, I would certainly take the classless approach because to paint yourself into a corner with one of your very first choices annoys me to no end.

 

[WillSimplyBe]

Classes make games stupid and unbalanced. What we need is a more ElderScrolls-like customization system, but more mainstreamed, to keep MMOs and RPGs alive in the future.

One could argue that class based systems actually help enforce balance. If you know specifically what a character's job is, it's far easier to create a balance. In The Elder Scrolls, there is nothing to stop me from wearing nearly impenetrable god armor while casting spells of armageddon. In most MMO's, a classes direct lethality is balanced agains their durability. In general, the more lethal a class is the more vulnerable it is to attack. Using the Elder Scrolls approach, you'd quickly find that if Everyone is a tank in terms of durability and certain attacks or spells are the most lethal that everyone would become a tank wielding those most awesomely powerful spells.

I'm with dreck here. Generally classes are a much more balanced system than just letting someone get everything they want. Also, when everyone is aloud to get EVERYTHING they want, then what happens to the originality of the character? They are just the same as every other character, because no one is special anymore.

Also, Classes don't have to be incredibly limiting at all. There are many games, MMOs and otherwise, where a class is viewed more as the first step on the road of your character, instead of a brick wall, defining completely where you start and where you stop. Diverse and controllable stat progression, expansive diverse skill systems, equipment. All these are things presented in many games that can allow you to control how your character develops.

I think a great example of one such system was Ragnarok Online, where by controlling your stats, skills, and gear, (oh, and job system too) you could create things like a combat fighting sage, battle priests, and knights who cast magic while wailing on somebody's face with a giant sword. lol.

In many ways, a class is just a stepping stone, and not a ceiling for a character. At least in my experiences.

 

[Naeo]

No classes.

While the third option is a nice one- giving you a few bonuses here and there but not restricting your gameplay options/doing so minimally- I prefer no classes at all. It's a freer form of gameplay with the training wheels all off. If I want to be a heavy armour lichen monster casting spells with a 500 point magic penalty then let me do it. If I start out with spells but decide "Well I should probably be using a sword/ax here and there", let me keep my proficiency with spells but also become proficient with axes/swords.

This is why I like Oblivion/Morrowind. I don't consider those "class" games as the classes are just a set of bonuses to skills you think you'll be using throughout the game which can be totally ignored if you so please. The classes restrict nothing- I can have level 10 blade and all my major skills are magic, and still go kill stuff with the blade.