Poll: Could you play an MMO if...

[80Maxwell08]

Um you realize this game exists right? Or at least it did when I still played though I doubt they did all the radical changes required for there to be an economy. It's called AQ Worlds.

EDIT: I just logged onto it to see and yep it's still like this.

No, I didn't realise, that's why I put the Edit at the bottom.

But thank you though, I really appreciate it. I'm going to look at that now.

Actually I didn't see the part about you asking that question until a second read through your post. Sorry. Also happy to help. Some quick notes though I wouldn't say the game is even remotely good but not because no trading though I can give you some examples of problems caused right now.

I was in the beta testing for the game and one of the things I got from it was a rare sword that would never be available again. I stopped using this sword because EVERYONE IN THE WORLD KEPT ASKING WHERE TO GET IT. Because there's no trading or auction house or economy at all to get anything you have to ask the person what their item is and where to get it. In the case of rare items you have to go through the infinite pain of telling a thousand people they can never get your awesome weapon.

Oh but my best story is this. One day upon repeating this same message to some hapless person they actually asked where "beta" was. I told him the beta wasn't a place but a time period and that he couldn't get it anymore. This didn't stop him FOLLOWING ME FOR HALF AN HOUR ASKING WHERE THE BETA FOR THE GAME WAS.

I have so many experiences like this it's insane. Simply put if you do this "no economy" thing you should never in existence add rares. Honestly I don't even use the rares I got from that game anymore because people just wouldn't shut up.

 

[Lunar Templar]

*shrugs*

depends on the MMO, i already barely interact with other players to things like the auction house are just 'dump stuff here for a random amount of money' NPC vendors to me.

and since i generally don't worry about farmers i tend to base weather I'll play something or not on mechanics that matter to me, like, combat

 

[Nazulu]

Sure I could play it. Aside from having to find your own stuff, it'd be pretty much the same game. Dividing loot would probably cause more arguments though, maybe. I don't think its a good solution as its curing a disease by killing the patient but I could play it.

Didn't think about the loot system either. Maybe certain loot only drops for certain classes in groups. That's a very good point.

Um you realize this game exists right? Or at least it did when I still played though I doubt they did all the radical changes required for there to be an economy. It's called AQ Worlds.

EDIT: I just logged onto it to see and yep it's still like this.

No, I didn't realise, that's why I put the Edit at the bottom.

But thank you though, I really appreciate it. I'm going to look at that now.

Actually I didn't see the part about you asking that question until a second read through your post. Sorry. Also happy to help. Some quick notes though I wouldn't say the game is even remotely good but not because no trading though I can give you some examples of problems caused right now.

I was in the beta testing for the game and one of the things I got from it was a rare sword that would never be available again. I stopped using this sword because EVERYONE IN THE WORLD KEPT ASKING WHERE TO GET IT. Because there's no trading or auction house or economy at all to get anything you have to ask the person what their item is and where to get it. In the case of rare items you have to go through the infinite pain of telling a thousand people they can never get your awesome weapon.

Oh but my best story is this. One day upon repeating this same message to some hapless person they actually asked where "beta" was. I told him the beta wasn't a place but a time period and that he couldn't get it anymore. This didn't stop him FOLLOWING ME FOR HALF AN HOUR ASKING WHERE THE BETA FOR THE GAME WAS.

I have so many experiences like this it's insane. Simply put if you do this "no economy" thing you should never in existence add rares. Honestly I don't even use the rares I got from that game anymore because people just wouldn't shut up.

Yeah, I hope didn't come of as a smart ass. I do that sometimes.

Anyway, great post, I wouldn't of thought of that. I mean, it happens in all the MMO's from what I've seen but it would be a lot more common I guess if you couldn't trade 'em.

The only solution I can think of for now is to let all the players know that the drops could fall of any monster. Of course the higher the level the better the drop. Hopefully there's a better way to deal with it though.

 

[xemnahort]

Any way, Could you play an MMO if you couldn't trade items with other people?

Wait, you can trade items with people in MMORPGs? Astonishing.

 

[Nazulu]

Any way, Could you play an MMO if you couldn't trade items with other people?

Wait, you can trade items with people in MMORPGs? Astonishing.

Yeah, some people have already brought that up but I mean something like WoW and Diablo.

 

[Gatx]

No matter what I can or can't do, the game has to be good anyway for me to want to play it.

 

[Erana]

Well, I wouldn't mind if regular trading systems were abolished in order to try to promote more interaction. Perhaps have a service-based economy? Have certain circumstances in which PC interaction promoted drops and the like?

...Or, you know, don't have the game be equipment-based? That'd work, too.

 

[NathLines]

I see pretty much no problem with it. Then again, I'm the guy that's waiting for multiplayer games(not MMOs though) to stop using chat systems.

Why would you ever need a chat system in MOBAs or FPS games? Are they expecting me to have insightful discussions with other people? Really?

 

[Sonic Doctor]

Snip

I like auction halls in MMOs when they are reasonable(which isn't very often). I would like to see MMOs that regulate their auction halls. I heard that Star Wars: TOR has a very regulated market, in that they supposedly stop people from getting edges in the market to make extra money by buying up everything and selling it for high prices.

I admit I did that a few times when I played WoW, but I did it because I always ended up undercut on my prices usually by five levels to the effect that people were doing it to a point that they were taking losses by how low they were selling their stuff.

I would say one of the worst action halls I've used is in Lord of the Rings Online. Now you catch it at a good time you can get stuff at good prices, but 90% of the time everything is way overpriced usually 1000% or more over a reasonable price.

Example:

Dyes are created by players that are scholars as part of their three professions. Items to create the dyes are acquired by the farming and prospecting professions, plus things found out in the world and on enemies. With just a tiny bit of effort, all can be got easily.

On the server I'm on, even the basic color dyes are being sold for 100 to 150 silvers per single use dye bottle. So for low level characters, it can take at least an hour or more of play to get the money to get one.

The higher the tier dye the more expensive it is. There was a certain blue dye I wanted for my Lore-Master's outfit and I needed five for all the pieces I wanted to dye. It turned out that it was 300 silvers per bottle, so it was 1 gold 500 silvers to get those five bottles. To give a relation, in WoW's currency system, that would be 15 gold.

The most expensive dyes I've seen on the LotRO's auction hall are black at 500 silvers per bottle and crimson at 1 gold per bottle. If you were to work to get a whole crimson outfit in the beginning, 5 to 6 pieces, it will take at least a week of play at low levels to get the 5 to 6 gold to get it. That estimate factors in at least 3 hours of gameplay a day.

Finally, comparatively, all other items on the AH are sold like that. I'm not saying people shouldn't have to work for what they get in MMOs, but it shouldn't take a week to get one small section of items, especially cosmetic items. If that week was cut in half, I think it would be much more reasonable.

 

[Spitfire]

Lets think about it though. It's a lot of trouble controlling farmers and bots, they exist to either make money and cheapen the experience by avoiding a lot the challenges.

Maybe so, but they cheapen the experience for themselves, and no one else, so it's not such a pertinent issue that would justify removing the ability to trade.

Then there are those who are capable of breaking into other peoples accounts to steal their stuff, it's happened in all MMO's I've played.

Yeah, and by that logic, online banking should be dismantled, because it's always possible for someone to hack into your account, and use your money. It's ludicrous.

Two things that almost every MMO needs, are rewards (because you need a reason to advance in the game), and a way to dispense of your goods (because that backpack/pouch/cargohold can only fit so much), and the most effective way of realizing both of those, is by having economics in the game, to allow you to trade the items that you wish to.

What say you Escapist? Look back on your favourite MMO's and imagine if you couldn't trade.

Well, for a start, I think that my 2 month tenure in World of Warcraft would'be been cut severely short, and Eve Online would probably not even exist if it didn't have the marketplace.

Edit: Please mention any MMO's that have done this already, because I don't know any.

I think Battlestar Galactica Online did that. If I'm not mistaken, the only things you can purchase are upgrades for your ships, and there no items in the game to trade with other players. I could be wrong, however, as I haven't played the game since beta, and I have a fuzzy memory of it to begin with.

Edit: I think APB Reloaded doesn't have trading either. It's free-to-play, so you could check that one out as well.

 

[Nazulu]

Finally, comparatively, all other items on the AH are sold like that. I'm not saying people shouldn't have to work for what they get in MMOs, but it shouldn't take a week to get one small section of items, especially cosmetic items. If that week was cut in half, I think it would be much more reasonable.

I guess I'm the only one crazy enough to always go looking for my own ingrediants. The further this thread goes the more I agree that there probably should be at least trading for little things. Even though you could make it so you can buy a lot of the ingrediants. Or even do quests to get those ingrediants.

 

[Rack]

It would need an in-depth and balanced crafting system to let you take advantage of dropped items, and a game that worked without much itemisation. Ironically I think Diablo III comes closest to this.

Edit: I've just realised the only MMO I played for any length of time was City of Heroes and that had almost no itemisation at all.

 

[Nazulu]

Lets think about it though. It's a lot of trouble controlling farmers and bots, they exist to either make money and cheapen the experience by avoiding a lot the challenges.

Maybe so, but they cheapen the experience for themselves, and no one else, so it's not such a pertinent issue that would justify removing the ability to trade.

Then there are those who are capable of breaking into other peoples accounts to steal their stuff, it's happened in all MMO's I've played.

Yeah, and by that logic, online banking should be dismantled, because it's always possible for someone to hack into your account, and use your money. It's ludicrous.

Two things that almost every MMO needs, are rewards (because you need a reason to advance in the game), and a way to dispense of your goods (because that backpack/pouch/cargohold can only fit so much), and the most effective way of realizing both of those, is by having economics in the game, to allow you to trade the items that you wish to.

What say you Escapist? Look back on your favourite MMO's and imagine if you couldn't trade.

Well, for a start, I think that my 2 month tenure in World of Warcraft would'be been cut severely short, and Eve Online would probably not even exist if it didn't have the marketplace.

Edit: Please mention any MMO's that have done this already, because I don't know any.

I think Battlestar Galactica Online did that. If I'm not mistaken, the only things you can purchase are upgrades for your ships, and there no items in the game to trade with other players. I could be wrong, however, as I haven't played the game since beta, and I have a fuzzy memory of it to begin with.

Actually, many players always complain about farmers and bots because they believe they should have to play it fair as well. It's the fact that they pass honest players with minimal effort that people find annoying, and they are sometimes known for the increase in prices as well.

As for the comparison between gaming and not so big money making MMO's, they work differently. I can understand though, but I, and I'm sure many others could play mainly for the game play and not so much the rewards and trading. We still get the rewards though, and instead you could trade small items still but nothing epic, would that still be OK?

And thanks for mentioning one. I'll go check it out.

 

[Nazulu]

I'm not trying to troll but it's a pretty weak question. I don't think any MMO would consider doing that, but if they did it would feel intensely second-rate. Just bad design, not intentional farmer-combating.

I won't play any more MMOs, I tried TOR and it failed to keep my attention.

Mate, I have an option that recommends I go back to the looney bin, it's alright.

Plus I've been recommended some MMO's that supposedly have something similar. You never know, it might be even more effective.

And what do you bad design and not intentional farmer-combating?

 

[Madman123456]

[x]depends.

This would have to be a game where trading or dropping wouldn't be needed for some Reason. I can't imagine a System in which i can not grind some "money" to do something for my Clan, my toon or something. No helping noobs out with little items that are immensly useful to them but are scraps for your highleveltoon?

No getting any stuff to create something useful?

I can't imagine such a game with nothing to "have" for you. Even if you made a tetris mmo you'd wanna have straightline blocks.

But i can't discount the possibility. Maybe that "trading" is done in a way that wont require items to change hands. Maybe we'll just operate on each other and put ability enhancing into each others Asses. I dunno.

 

[Spitfire]

snip

Actually, many players always complain about farmers and bots because they believe they should have to play it fair as well. It's the fact that they pass honest players with minimal effort that people find annoying, and they are sometimes known for the increase in prices as well.

Players can complain all they want, but unless the rules of the game specifically forbid farming, then technically, farmers are playing the game exactly the way it was meant to. If anything, that speaks about the nature of the game in question, not about the notion of MMO economy.

As for the comparison between gaming and not so big money making MMO's, they work differently. I can understand though, but I, and I'm sure many others could play mainly for the game play and not so much the rewards and trading.

I have to admit that I generalized a bit in my post.
I'm certain that there are many people who like to play MMOs just for the gameplay, and that's great, but most MMOs are heavily reliant on Skinner's Box techniques, which players are usually very responsive to. It's only recently that the genre has started to break from its mold somewhat, with games like Star Wars: The Old Republic, or The Secret World, which have a very strong emphasis on story, and the economics in those games can be ignored entirely. However, that, in and of itself, is not a selling point for most people. Just because you can drop every single item in your inventory, and still reach the end game, doesn't necessarily mean that you should, and it certainly doesn't mean that the developers of the game should remove your ability to trade items.

We still get the rewards though, and instead you could trade small items still but nothing epic, would that still be OK?

Depends on the game. I'm not against changing the economics of MMOs, I'm just saying that that aspect of the genre won't go away any time soon.

 

[Nazulu]

[x]depends.

This would have to be a game where trading or dropping wouldn't be needed for some Reason. I can't imagine a System in which i can not grind some "money" to do something for my Clan, my toon or something. No helping noobs out with little items that are immensly useful to them but are scraps for your highleveltoon?

No getting any stuff to create something useful?

I can't imagine such a game with nothing to "have" for you. Even if you made a tetris mmo you'd wanna have straightline blocks.

But i can't discount the possibility. Maybe that "trading" is done in a way that wont require items to change hands. Maybe we'll just operate on each other and put ability enhancing into each others Asses. I dunno.

I guess it's inevitable, trading and dropping is an important factor I'm pretty sure I'm under-estimating.

You can still gather ingrediants to create items and trade with your new toons though.

Also, I was thinking earlier that maybe you could trade over an email or something, have a seperate account for trading or something. Enchanting ones ass is tempting.

 

[Nazulu]

snip

Actually, many players always complain about farmers and bots because they believe they should have to play it fair as well. It's the fact that they pass honest players with minimal effort that people find annoying, and they are sometimes known for the increase in prices as well.

Players can complain all they want, but unless the rules of the game specifically forbid farming, then technically, farmers are playing the game exactly the way it was meant to. If anything, that speaks about the nature of the game in question, not about the notion of MMO economy.

As for the comparison between gaming and not so big money making MMO's, they work differently. I can understand though, but I, and I'm sure many others could play mainly for the game play and not so much the rewards and trading.

I have to admit that I generalized a bit in my post.
I'm certain that there are many people who like to play MMOs just for the gameplay, and that's great, but most MMOs are heavily reliant on Skinner's Box techniques, which players are usually very responsive to. It's only recently that the genre has started to break from its mold somewhat, with games like Star Wars: The Old Republic, or The Secret World, which have a very strong emphasis on story, and the economics in those games can be ignored entirely. However, that, in and of itself, is not a selling point for most people. Just because you can drop every single item in your inventory, and still reach the end game, doesn't necessarily mean that you should, and it certainly doesn't mean that the developers of the game should remove your ability to trade items.

We still get the rewards though, and instead you could trade small items still but nothing epic, would that still be OK?

Depends on the game. I'm not against changing the economics of MMOs, I'm just saying that that aspect of the genre won't go away any time soon.

It's actually not a bad complaint. Just to make sure, I'm talking about the farmers that either bot everything or sell money over ebay and what not. These have never been legal, not in any MMO I've played any way.

I'm not necessarily saying developers should drop trading altogether, I just wanted to see if it would be a problem for any one. I'm sure you already knew that though.

Never heard of the Skinners box technique before, looked it up and was pretty interesting. I thought the skinners box technique would still be in effect if the items still drop though. Or is it a combination of finding and doing what ever you want with it?

 

[80Maxwell08]

Yeah, I hope didn't come of as a smart ass. I do that sometimes.

Anyway, great post, I wouldn't of thought of that. I mean, it happens in all the MMO's from what I've seen but it would be a lot more common I guess if you couldn't trade 'em.

The only solution I can think of for now is to let all the players know that the drops could fall of any monster. Of course the higher the level the better the drop. Hopefully there's a better way to deal with it though.

Oh no you didn't come off that way at all. Don't worry about that.

 

[Sonic Doctor]

I guess I'm the only one crazy enough to always go looking for my own ingredients. The further this thread goes the more I agree that there probably should be at least trading for little things. Even though you could make it so you can buy a lot of the ingredients. Or even do quests to get those ingredients.

Don't know if you've played any of the game, but I'll explain where I'm coming from.

The way crafting is set up in LotRO is that after all the intro/tutorial stuff is done, you will run into a quest to pick your character's vocation from one of seven, each vocation is made up of a mix of three professions from a list of ten. Two of the professions in a vocation will compliment each other in creating ingredients for the other.

Armourer: Prospector--Metalsmith--Tailor
Armsman: Prospector--Weaponsmith--Woodworker
Explorer: Forester--Prospector--Tailor
Historian: Farmer--Scholar--Weaponsmith
Tinker: Prospector--Cook--Jeweller
Woodsman: Farmer--Forester--Woodworker
Yeoman: Farmer--Cook--Tailor

Now, since Scholar is the profession that makes dyes, you have to pick the Historian vocation since it is the only one that has Scholar. Several of the ingredients to make dyes comes from farming, so that is covered, but there are some ingredients that come from prospecting. Some of the dye colors that need ingredients from prospecting are, umber, sienna, olive, rust, Rivendell green, Ranger green, white, crimson and black. That is 9 dyes out of the 25 dyes there are in the game. Problem is that the five at the end of that list are the most sought after/used dyes in the game.

List of 25: http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Dyes

I didn't know this, but while looking up how to make every dye, I found out that black dye doesn't have a recipe. Black dye can only be made when the Scholar gets a critical success when creating the rust dye. Now that I know this I call bull crap stupid, since black will usually be the most popular/used color in a game. Of course, black dye is sold in Turbines in game store for 100 Turbine points a bottle(basically one dollar a bottle). All other dyes are sold in such a way, but there is no reason to actually spend money on those, because they are easier to make and not as rare.

My point is though, unless you have friends or kinship members that are prospectors(who won't hoard the rare ingredients for themselves), you will have to make an alt character with prospecting and get the character near max level, since dyes like black and crimson are tier 5 and tier 6 respectively, and so are the ingredient are needed for them.

Also, you can't just set the scholar as your alt and the prospector as a main, then get all the ingredients together to pump up your low level scholar to top tier crafting, because most professions have two to three situations where the player can't advance to the next tier unless they go finish a special quest that will be the level that the character should be when they reach that crafting tier. Those two/three situations are usually set at unlocking tier 3, 4, and sometimes 5 or 6.

Don't get me wrong, I love the LotRO crafting system, but there are some major glaring problems.

If you are a solo player, you would have to max at least 4 characters get all things you need for all situations. So if you play at a reasonable pace/amount of time using your method of finding your own ingredients, it would take a year or more of playing almost every day to get what you need to be totally self-sufficient.

Okay, time to take a break. That turned out to be longer then I intended.