Poll: D&D or Pathfinder?

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JMeganSnow

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I'm not that wedded to system, particularly. I liked 3.0/3.5 and Pathfinder.

I don't like 4e at all, though, it feels like Dungeons and Dragons: The Gathering to me. Every character I built wound up being basically identical except for, say, damage-type descriptors because there is absolutely no reason to build outside the model of: pick a class. Pick two stats that are good for that class. Those are your main stats. Pick a race that gets bonuses to those two stats. Pick abilities that use those two stats. Pick feats that make those abilities better. Pick gear that makes those abilities better. The end. 4e is geared toward absolutely everything falling within a VERY narrow range of possible outcomes, so if you are as much as -2 off of what the game expects your numbers to be for your level, you are screwed. (Granted, if you can get as much as +2 ABOVE the expected numbers, you're pretty well-off.)

That, and the modules released for 4e are godawful. Bad writing. Bad editing. Every single one we played had MAJOR errors in it that any half-competent editor would fix, from two maps of the same area not matching (which left us all scratching our heads, let me tell you) to several mobs appearing in a fight but not being named or described anywhere so who knows what they were supposed to be. That and no individual attack does much damage, so fights are a *grind*. I hit. I do 40. I hit. I do 40. Oh, it has 800 hit points. Yay. Even our GM nearly fell asleep from boredom during the sessions.

Of course, now we're playing Scion (Storyteller system) which I like EVEN LESS. I detest Storyteller. Half the rulebook goes all out telling you how epic and tortured and awesome and weird and angsty and cool your child-of-a-god character is going to be, and then when it comes time to do something epic . . . you really can't. Part of this comes down to plain dice rolls--I mean, how much sense does it make when you have about a 33% chance per die to get one success to have it average out so that in order to HIT IN COMBAT, you, on average again, will need ONE SUCCESS PER DIE. You'll need a stack of over-successes to have a chance to do damage, too. Ugh.

I actually prefer games where there's lots of interesting character and world interaction, but I'll take this dry mechanical crap too as long as it's interesting. Often times, however, it ain't.
 

Bara_no_Hime

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Aethren said:
No idea. They're both expensive as all hell to get into, and I don't know of anyone around here that plays them.
Actually, Pathfinder is free (as long as you don't mind using the internet).

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/

That's official and legally free.
 

Scars Unseen

^ ^ v v < > < > B A
May 7, 2009
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I haven't been able to get a gaming group together since before 4E came out. I have the books(well the original 3, so I'm way behind) but I have no way to get a feel for the new edition. I like the way some of it reads, and not so much other parts, but I imagine it's all outdated anyway, so whatever.

I was actually starting to get interested in the Fate system. It has a lot of interesting concepts that I would love to use in a game.

http://www.faterpg.com/
http://zork.net/~nick/loyhargil/fate-srd-rest/Fate-SRD-2005-03-31.html
 

JMeganSnow

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Electrohydra said:
Rule 0 is the rule that states that the DM is always right, and in any conflict between rule 0 and another printed rule, rule 0 wins. I'm not sure if it's actually called rule 0 in the books, but it IS in the dungeon master's guide, and an unwritten rule in most systems. It basically comes from the fact that it's the DM's job to make sure everyone is having fun, and that fun is more important than rules, so rule 0 is there to make sure he can.

So yeah, rule 0 basically takes care of most blatant unevenness of D&D 3.5 when used correctly.
This is NOT Rule 0. Rule 0 is that any rule that gets in the way of the fun gets scrapped. Including an overbearing asshole GM who insists he's "always right". The GM is not the ruler of the game, he is the setter of the scene and the arbitrator of difficulties.

In a tactical, high-threat game, in fact, the players NEED to be able to argue rules with the GM and not just have the GM say "whatever I say, goes", because being able to point to a rule in the book that says your character didn't just die is about the only grounds for arguing that the players HAVE. I mean, seriously, if the GM really wanted to, why not just dump an ancient red dragon on you and call it a day. :p (My group refers to this kind of behavior as "cow from orbit"--you are suddenly and inexplicably struck by a cow. From orbit. Moo.)

The people in my group have between 12-20 years of PnP experience each and have seen just about everything. It makes them hard to impress, but they have decent conflict resolution skills.
 

Aethren

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Bara_no_Hime said:
Aethren said:
No idea. They're both expensive as all hell to get into, and I don't know of anyone around here that plays them.
Actually, Pathfinder is free (as long as you don't mind using the internet).

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/

That's official and legally free.
But what about miniatures, dice, artbooks, maps, nipple tassels, and soda? I doubt that's free.
 

Bara_no_Hime

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Aethren said:
But what about miniatures, dice, artbooks, maps, nipple tassels, and soda? I doubt that's free.
Miniatures) You can print out free paper ones from the internet. You can also buy paper ones, but I have no idea why any sane person would do so when they're free (and easy to make in Paint).

Dice) Actually, there are a number of random-number generators online. So if you really don't want to use dice, you can keep your web browser open to that page and roll digitally. Free.

Artbooks) Why would you need one of those when Google Images exists?

Maps) See Artbooks above. Also, a sheet of graph paper will do you if you like to make your own.

Nipple Tassels) Optional unless you're in one of my games, and in that case they're provided by the DM along with hand-cuffs, whips, and riding crops.

Soda) ... drink tap water? Or make your players bring it.
 

Aethren

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Bara_no_Hime said:
Aethren said:
But what about miniatures, dice, artbooks, maps, nipple tassels, and soda? I doubt that's free.
Miniatures) You can print out free paper ones from the internet. You can also buy paper ones, but I have no idea why any sane person would do so when they're free (and easy to make in Paint).

Dice) Actually, there are a number of random-number generators online. So if you really don't want to use dice, you can keep your web browser open to that page and roll digitally. Free.

Artbooks) Why would you need one of those when Google Images exists?

Maps) See Artbooks above. Also, a sheet of graph paper will do you if you like to make your own.

Nipple Tassels) Optional unless you're in one of my games, and in that case they're provided by the DM along with hand-cuffs, whips, and riding crops.

Soda) ... drink tap water? Or make your players bring it.
I wish I could join your games, I've thought out my perfect character: A shirt-less dwarven berserker with a heavy beard dyed a vibrant pink, silver nipple tassels, and an extremely hairy chest. He likes hammers and elven wine, and is quite good at bellydancing.
 

Bara_no_Hime

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Aethren said:
I wish I could join your games, I've thought out my perfect character: A shirt-less dwarven berserker with a heavy beard dyed a vibrant pink, silver nipple tassels, and an extremely hairy chest. He likes hammers and elven wine, and is quite good at bellydancing.
**blinks**

Oh gods, my eyes! Oh gods, my BRAIN!

Anyway, I should probably mention that my spouse and I run lots of Pathfinder games for one another.

Currently, my spouse is playing my Mass Effect Pathfinder conversion. ^^ My spouse's Shepard decided to romance Tali. So I practiced the accent, learned her romance dialog options, and one thing led to another.

No whips or handcuffs in that one (although I won't rule out the rest). Last time we used the whips was that Drow game....
 

Smiles

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I started with fourth as my only DnD experience, and I had no idea it was not the DnD my father grew up with. I loved it at first, but couldn't quite place what it was missing. then one of my friends invited me into their 3.5 game, and I have to say at first I was extremely confused, what with the enormous ammount of official books out there and 3rd party suppliments. I never had a clue where to start when making a character, but the roleplaying was so fun that it didn't seem to matter that my character could do crap all. then a friend of mine comes along, saying he wants to run a Pathfinder game, specifically Kingmaker. I look over the pathfinder stuff, and have an epiphany.

its like after a rainstorm, the clouds parted and I saw light.

Pathfinder was a 100 times easier to get into than 3.5 for me, there was when I started playing simply the players handbook and thats all I needed. I didn't even have to buy it, its all online!

sure my character may not be super awesome powerful sorceress still, but at least I haven't gimped myself in any fashion and I love the world and its history.

anyone in the vancouver area looking to buy some fourth ed books? I am selling my collection, which is in perfect condition for only half price!(or tradsis!)
 

Indecipherable

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JMeganSnow said:
Electrohydra said:
Rule 0 is the rule that states that the DM is always right, and in any conflict between rule 0 and another printed rule, rule 0 wins. I'm not sure if it's actually called rule 0 in the books, but it IS in the dungeon master's guide, and an unwritten rule in most systems. It basically comes from the fact that it's the DM's job to make sure everyone is having fun, and that fun is more important than rules, so rule 0 is there to make sure he can.

So yeah, rule 0 basically takes care of most blatant unevenness of D&D 3.5 when used correctly.
This is NOT Rule 0. Rule 0 is that any rule that gets in the way of the fun gets scrapped. Including an overbearing asshole GM who insists he's "always right". The GM is not the ruler of the game, he is the setter of the scene and the arbitrator of difficulties.

In a tactical, high-threat game, in fact, the players NEED to be able to argue rules with the GM and not just have the GM say "whatever I say, goes", because being able to point to a rule in the book that says your character didn't just die is about the only grounds for arguing that the players HAVE. I mean, seriously, if the GM really wanted to, why not just dump an ancient red dragon on you and call it a day. :p (My group refers to this kind of behavior as "cow from orbit"--you are suddenly and inexplicably struck by a cow. From orbit. Moo.)

The people in my group have between 12-20 years of PnP experience each and have seen just about everything. It makes them hard to impress, but they have decent conflict resolution skills.
If someone's justification for a ridiculous rule was 'because I'm the DM' was used in our group then they would be the DM for the next 5 seconds while everyone decided who would run the next group instead of them.
 

Aethren

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Bara_no_Hime said:
Aethren said:
I wish I could join your games, I've thought out my perfect character: A shirt-less dwarven berserker with a heavy beard dyed a vibrant pink, silver nipple tassels, and an extremely hairy chest. He likes hammers and elven wine, and is quite good at bellydancing.
**blinks**

Oh gods, my eyes! Oh gods, my BRAIN!

Anyway, I should probably mention that my spouse and I run lots of Pathfinder games for one another.

Currently, my spouse is playing my Mass Effect Pathfinder conversion. ^^ My spouse's Shepard decided to romance Tali. So I practiced the accent, learned her romance dialog options, and one thing led to another.

No whips or handcuffs in that one (although I won't rule out the rest). Last time we used the whips was that Drow game....
That's ironic, I gave my Dwarf the same accent as Tali. He's like a Scottish Russian. Or Russian Scot. No mask or bodysuit though, just 300 lbs of Dwarven bellydancing glamour. With tassels. And he sometimes rides his warhammer like a witch rides a broom, and makes "Swoosh" noises as he prances over the corpses of recently-slain enemies.

Tali's pretty much every geek's dream-girl it seems, she's like the ideal woman. Soft-spoken with an amazing accent and small curves on a slender frame.
 

Thaa'ir

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I started on 3.5 DnD but sometimes we had to use 3.0 books...it ended up getting weird. My friends are hostile towards 4.0, but I've never played it.
 

SSX-BlueFlames

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I've so extensively house-ruled D&D that I effectively use a custom edition now. Edition 3.5 was the basis, but a Second Edition player would feel right at home with my character creation and leveling rules. Then there's the completely original stuff I've sprinkled on top, like the nautical combat rules. The amount of effort invested in this was absolutely ridiculous, but I'm pretty proud of the end result.

Also, not really sure what poll option that represents.
 

King of the Sandbox

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Jan 22, 2010
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As a long time 1st and (mostly) 2nd Edition Revised player, I recently got into 4th. Though a lot of people at the hobbyshop/nerd hangout here in town were praising the shit out of Pathfinder. But from what I've gleaned, it's more the munchkins game (a la 3 and 3.5; the money-grubbing, thanks for beta testing for us Edition) where as 4th puts more emphasis on basic characters, with more flaver in basic race choices (like adding Teiflings and Dragonborn as starter races).

4th edition is also very tactical, and the level advancement is kind of video-game like in it's progression trees, allowing new players to get into it and start being strategic very quickly.

If I can say nothing else about 4th, it's the first game I've played where noobs don't spend the whole campaign saying "I guess I attack the monster.", instead opting for more flavorful, "I summon my Flames of Phlagathras to burn the hobgoblin from the inside out!" or "I use Cleave to swing my bastardsword in an arc to gut both of the goblins flanking me!" type attacks.

To sum up;

Haven't played Pathfinder, but munchkins I've spoken to praise it as the second coming. Perfect for your "I want to be a half demon, half drow, half dragon warlock fighter with wings and firebreath and an armor class that borders on offensive to read aloud." type games.

4th Edition D&D is more accessible, with the options in further suppliments to Goku your characters if you so choose, while focusing on battle tactics, role-playing and even, balanced gameplay.
 

A Distant Star

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I choose you Exalted!

Also World of Darkness

also 7th Sea

also Legend of the 5 Rings

also Plaris

Never played Pathfinder, and while I dont hate DnD, there's a lot of games I like a lot more.
 

A Distant Star

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Aethren said:
Bara_no_Hime said:
Aethren said:
I wish I could join your games, I've thought out my perfect character: A shirt-less dwarven berserker with a heavy beard dyed a vibrant pink, silver nipple tassels, and an extremely hairy chest. He likes hammers and elven wine, and is quite good at bellydancing.
**blinks**

Oh gods, my eyes! Oh gods, my BRAIN!

Anyway, I should probably mention that my spouse and I run lots of Pathfinder games for one another.

Currently, my spouse is playing my Mass Effect Pathfinder conversion. ^^ My spouse's Shepard decided to romance Tali. So I practiced the accent, learned her romance dialog options, and one thing led to another.

No whips or handcuffs in that one (although I won't rule out the rest). Last time we used the whips was that Drow game....
That's ironic, I gave my Dwarf the same accent as Tali. He's like a Scottish Russian. Or Russian Scot. No mask or bodysuit though, just 300 lbs of Dwarven bellydancing glamour. With tassels. And he sometimes rides his warhammer like a witch rides a broom, and makes "Swoosh" noises as he prances over the corpses of recently-slain enemies.

Tali's pretty much every geek's dream-girl it seems, she's like the ideal woman. Soft-spoken with an amazing accent and small curves on a slender frame.
Once played a Dwarven feminist who rebelled against the oppressive male dominated society by growing in her beard.
 

thewaever

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Mar 4, 2010
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The thing that makes me laugh about Pathfinder is that every single problem I have ever heard leveled against 4E was said against 3E. That being said I much, much, MUCH prefer 4E to 3E (in whatever form you want to put it in).


That's not to say that I don't have my problems with 4E, especially this most recent wave of books. But, let me put it to you this way: 4E makes for fun games, while 3E was so bad it inspired me to quit playing D&D altogether & write my own gaming system. Which I did. And it was fun. And we played the homebrew for 10 years.


Here's my 3E/4E experience in a nutshell:
-3E-
Me: I want to {insert any action here}
DM: Ok, let's check the book & see what penalties you get.

Not only did I get penalties for doing something that my character was designed to do, but the DMs (this was multiple, independent DMs playing in multiple, independent games on multiple, independent continents, btw) didn't even know what kind of penalties to expect & so had to waste time looking them up each time.


Meanwhile...

-4E-
Me: I want to {insert any action here}, & I get bonuses just because the game system is pure awesome!
DM: Nice!
 

Canadish

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I've managed to get a group going with Pathfinder, and none of us have any previous role playing experience.
It's a pretty nice rule set from what I've played with it, and give it a thorough recommendation, from my limited experience.
 

Zer_

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Feb 7, 2008
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thewaever said:
The thing that makes me laugh about Pathfinder is that every single problem I have ever heard leveled against 4E was said against 3E. That being said I much, much, MUCH prefer 4E to 3E (in whatever form you want to put it in).


That's not to say that I don't have my problems with 4E, especially this most recent wave of books. But, let me put it to you this way: 4E makes for fun games, while 3E was so bad it inspired me to quit playing D&D altogether & write my own gaming system. Which I did. And it was fun. And we played the homebrew for 10 years.


Here's my 3E/4E experience in a nutshell:
-3E-
Me: I want to {insert any action here}
DM: Ok, let's check the book & see what penalties you get.

Not only did I get penalties for doing something that my character was designed to do, but the DMs (this was multiple, independent DMs playing in multiple, independent games on multiple, independent continents, btw) didn't even know what kind of penalties to expect & so had to waste time looking them up each time.


Meanwhile...

-4E-
Me: I want to {insert any action here}, & I get bonuses just because the game system is pure awesome!
DM: Nice!
Pretty much. 3.5 is just cluttered with so many damn rules. I feel that 4E allows for a lot more improv without having to sift through books just to find out whether or not I can use my pants as a makesshift weapon for example.

In the end, though; the playing experience has a lot more to do with who you play with rather than what you play. I run 4E DnD games, and I always make it clear that the core combat rules are the most important part to maintain, anything else isn't set it stone. Custom classes, custom spells, abilities and even a few custom races come together to give us a unique experience.

Spell weaving is one thing I've been working on. When a caster reaches a certain level of arcane acuity, he or she may weave new spells on the fly. I haven't laid down the specific rules yet, but the first roll is a roll to determine if the spell is even casted. Another roll to determine whether it hits, and the last to determine damage. Overall, the rolls receive penalties depending on how powerful (read: difficult to cast) the spell is. Once the spell is cast, the caster remembers it, and the next cast only receives a small penalty in damage. Subsequent casts after the 3rd do not receive any penalties. Casters can only weave one spell per day. (Having him weave them all night would take forever, after all. :p)
 

h0ll0w0ne

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Nov 12, 2009
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I find most classes more fun to play in pathfinder.
And by most I mean anything that is not a prestige class.