Poll: Dark Souls isn't hard, its just douchey with its checkpoints

[Ilikemilkshake]

WARNING: Long post ahead, there will be a tl,dr for you lazy folk

EDIT 3:

Also, I think it's funny that the only thing the fans have to say is "you suck, it's your fault you died." Okay, even if it is my fault that I died, does that make it any less repetitive, boring, and obnoxious to have to replay all the easy stuff again? I say no, it doesn't. I need practice at the part where I died, but I can't get it because I spend more time replaying easy shit than actually being challenged. Playing Demon's Souls is more often than not a test of your tolerance for pointless repetition, not a test of your skill at the game.

You can almost entirely ignore my original post, because this quote above tells you what im trying to say.

Original post:

Im just gonna start by saying I do infact like this game. So far Ive played for 13 hours, im level 23 (ive not leveled up at all in the past 6 hours) and im at the point where I have to defeat the Carpa Demon before i can go into the depths. Now I have no idea if thats good or not compared to the average player but that isnt the point because I can tell you've ive actually only played maybe 2 hours of content, if this were any other game.

The reason this game is so "hard" is not because it requires a great deal of skill to master, its because in my 13 hours of playing, i have only came across 4 checkpoints. FOUR. Spread out about 10-15 minutes away from one another (it takes even longer if you're earlier on and you havent unlocked the shortcuts and/or cant kill the early enemies with 1 hit yet)

So far in the game I have killed something like 4 bosses, each one has taken me roughly 3 hours to beat because i'll spend 15 minutes carefully fighting towards the boss area, trying my hardest to loose no health before the boss. Then i'll enter the boss area where i'll immediatly get analy raped by a 20ft long sword or something and have to start again.

And before you say it, yes I did know what game I bought, I knew it was going to be hard BUT the thing that most people were saying about the diffuculty, was that the game was never cheap or unfair. But how is making me replay the same 10 minutes of gampeplay over and over and over and over again not just a cheap way of padding the gameplay? I wouldnt even mind if i was actually gaining some levels out of this constant grinding.. but because i die at the boss every time, meaning I NEVER progress. I could actually travel back in time 3 hours and i'd be in the exact same position, which i think IS unfair.

For me there are four possible ways of fixing this.
1. Gain xp aswell as souls.
This xp wouldnt be lost on death. But this would need to be made fair, possibly by making it so you only gain this xp via exploration or achieving certain things rather than just for kills. This would mean players still feel like their character is progressing, even if they've been stuck for a while.

2. Having a checkpoint outside each "white door".
These white doors usually lead to a boss area or somewhere extremely dangerous, meaning its highly likely you'll die here at least once. Having a checkpoint would mean you dont need to replay the last half an hour just to get to a point where you'll probably die in 2 hits. This could be balanced by making these "white door" areas completely unsafe, if you die you lose your souls for good and wont be able to pick them up again.

3. Just have more frequent bonfires or having an easier way to travel between them once you've cleared an area.

4. Have an added difficulty levels with one or more of the above, so people can have the game as originally intended or with one of these.. uh features

TL,DR: Basically im sick of having to spend 10-15 minutes fighting my way to a boss i know is going to kill me meaning i have to do it all again, read the 4 suggestions above and tell me if you think they sound fair.


EDIT: okay escapist ate my poll =/

EDIT 2: Some posts in the thread that pretty much sum up what im getting at:

While it's true that giving dying a consequence is part of the tension, I do not want to have to redo fifteen minutes worth of gameplay that I've already proven that I can do! Seriously, there must be a better way of setting up tension than putting you back fifteen minutes of gameplay. It's not fun, it's just annoying.

...So, basically what you're saying is that it's hard?

No. VVVVVV is a hard game, this is fake difficulty.

If you haven't played it, VVVVVV is a platform hell game which has challenges that are just as difficult as any other game, but the one major difference being that you have a checkpoint before literally EVERYTHING apart from the intentionally impossible challenges (e.g. Veni Vidi Vici. Google it). This maes it an incredibly hard game, but also one that is never frustrating.

I reviewed it [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.257229] if you want some more detail. Once you've proven you can do a stage, you've done it. You never have to do it again. Demon's Souls makes you redo everything about 50 times, removing all sense of accomplishment.

OP you are wasting your time with these ones. This game makes them feel hardcore for playing it so they will defend it to the death.

You can't have tension without consequence. That's the fundamental design philosophy behind this series. If dying is nothing but an extremely temporary inconvenience, what's to fear?

That's the OP's entire point, dying before the boss and having to redo the entire section is nothing but an extremely temporary inconvenience. The enemies have no real threat, just the boss.

 

[the spud]

I don't think they did that to be "cheap" or tot pad the game, but to increase the tension and keep you on your toes. They don't want to trivialize death by putting checkmarks outside the door.

 

[Vigilantis]

So you want a checkpoint/spawnpoint at every boss door? So unlimited boss tries until you win... that's not very fun.

I can say that this game is built the way it is for a reason but you seem to already know this and yet still complain. Simply put I do not think you are playing this game correctly, if you know a boss is going to wipe the floor with your ass don't go kill it, farm up your current souls for your next level and spend them, then after you don't have a pouch full of xp you can go attempt your boss fight which you may or may not lose. The game is all about being careful/trial and error.

I carry around the homeward miracle on me just in case something goes wrong in one of my dungeon crawls and Id rather not 1)die and potentially lose my souls trecking back to this spot or 2) I simply want out of this place.

Also after you explore an entire dungeon you get the basics of what and where you can skip over, second time through blighttown and it was absolutely cake. Not much else I can say as I do not agree with your changes one bit, but who knows you could be one of those guys I summon for a bossfight and roll off a cliff 10 seconds upon entering the White Fog

 

[Ilikemilkshake]

I don't think they did that to be "cheap" or tot pad the game, but to increase the tension and keep you on your toes. They don't want to trivialize death by putting checkmarks outside the door.

The checkmarks are already there, you have to go through big immersion breaking white doors that have bosses on the other side, all that im suggesting is that you respawn outside them again, instead of 10 minutes away.
As for making death trivial, well death is already trivial to me, im not losing anything apart from time, fights arent tense they're just a MASSIVE time sink because even if i manage to kill 50 enemies on the way to a boss without even being hit, 10 seconds into fighting a boss i'll be back at square one, i'll have to kill 50 enemies again, and i wont even have my souls to show for my previous effort.

 

[hypovolemia]

There are a lot of shortcuts in this game, which reduce traveling time quite a bit. Example: Near the door to the Depths is a shortcut to the Firelink Shrine. There is also another door leading back to the bonfire beneath the dragon. When using the shortest ways you often have to fight against very few enemies. (Firelink Shrine to Capra Demon has only those few weak enemies on the way to the Undead Burg and 5 in the Lower Undead Burg.)
So yeah, I'm completely fine with the placing of the bonfires.
Traveling between the Firelink Shrine and Blighttown takes quite long for me at the moment, though.

As for XP as another ressource: No, I'm fine with the status quo. What I like about Demon's and Dark Souls is that when you have a lot of souls, you are actually encouraged to spend them (or risk losing them very soon). I'm SL 21 now and have killed 6 bosses so far (including the tutorial boss). I just like to spend most of my souls on spells, upgrades and items instead of stats. (After killing that sixth boss I put 5 points into Endurance so that I could equip a slightly heavier shield and still move around quickly.) It's a viable tactic to keep your SL low and just improve your equipment. That's why I like the system the way it is now.

 

[Jack O'Shea]

why not instead of going off to your death against a boss you know your going to lose to, you could grind somewhere else and try to raise your level or go looking for better equipment

 

[bakan]

If you looted an area and only have the boss left you can usually skip 90-100% of all enemies until you are back at the boss.

Btw, there is absolutely no need for extra xp as you can beat everything even with a lower soullevel, there is just less room for mistakes and if you think you are too weak for a certain encounter, go somewhere else and gain some soullevels/equipment and come back later.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

You can't have tension without consequence. That's the fundamental design philosophy behind this series. If dying is nothing but an extremely temporary inconvenience, what's to fear?

Is it frustrating and even stressful at times? Very much so. But no other game keeps me so consistently on my toes. Knowing that I might die any given minute, and that this death will actually cost me something (souls, time, or both), creates a very palpable intensity that is sorely absent from most games.

There are plenty of games that checkpoint you to death - and by "plenty", I mean virtually every other modern game in existence. Why not just go play one of those?

 

[Something Amyss]

What do you expect? Actual challenge? Difficulty is usually an illusion anyway.

 

[lacktheknack]

Maybe you should let the hardcore difficulty enthusiasts have a bone for once.

 

[Phlakes]

...So, basically what you're saying is that it's hard?

 

[AlternatePFG]

The worst checkpoint (That I've encountered so far) is inbetween the Taurus Demon and the Undead Parish, but aside from that, I disagree. The bonfires are spaced out from each other, but the game gives ample shortcuts and alternate routes for you to take. If you cleared out an area of enemies, you shouldn't have that hard of a time doing it again, plus you benefit from the souls.

Some of the checkpoints are extremely generous, like the one right before the Moonlight Butterfly or the 30 second shortcut to the boss in Depths. (You have to have cleared it first, but literally on subsequent attempts, you can get to there only having to fight one or two enemies.)

 

[Phlakes]

...So, basically what you're saying is that it's hard?

No. VVVVVV is a hard game, this is fake difficulty.

If you haven't played it, VVVVVV is a platform hell game which has challenges that are just as difficult as any other game, but the one major difference being that you have a checkpoint before literally EVERYTHING apart from the intentionally impossible challenges (e.g. Veni Vidi Vici. Google it). This maes it an incredibly hard game, but also one that is never frustrating.

I have played it, and difficulty is subjective and all that. The only difficulty I think is actually fake is when it's not the player's fault, and I'm assuming getting killed in Dark Souls is always because of the player's mistakes/inexperience. If that's not true, then sure.

 

[anthony87]

Sounds just like my initial experience with Demon's Souls.

Once you get the feel for it, it'll be cake.

 

[chadachada123]

...So, basically what you're saying is that it's hard?

No. VVVVVV is a hard game, this is fake difficulty.

If you haven't played it, VVVVVV is a platform hell game which has challenges that are just as difficult as any other game, but the one major difference being that you have a checkpoint before literally EVERYTHING apart from the intentionally impossible challenges (e.g. Veni Vidi Vici. Google it). This maes it an incredibly hard game, but also one that is never frustrating.

I have played it, and difficulty is subjective and all that. The only difficulty I think is actually fake is when it's not the player's fault, and I'm assuming getting killed in Dark Souls is always because of the player's mistakes/inexperience. If that's not true, then sure.

I've only had one death that was out-of-left field. I stepped onto an elevator, and it went straight up into a bunch of spikes. That isn't to say that there aren't any clues to warn you, though. The elevator itself is covered in blood, and its motions are...suspicious. Had I been more careful, I would have easily survived. I don't see any of the "fake" difficulty caused by bullshit or unpreventable deaths in Dark Souls. It is, at least to me, genuinely hard, and a nice relief from games like CoD where any difficulty lies in the fact that enemies can kill you faster than normal human reaction time.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

OP you are wasting your time with these ones. This game makes them feel hardcore for playing it so they will defend it to the death.

Was that really necessary? Because a lot of us like the game, it's because we think we're hardcore for playing it?

Heaven forbid it's because we think it's a great game that's difficult, but never feels unfair. It never holds our hand and it never panders to us.

It's completely honest in what it is and isn't trying to be anything else.

 

[ImperialSunlight]

Play Demon's Souls and tell me Dark Souls is cheap with its checkpoints. In Demon's souls, you had to fight a boss to get a checkpoint or go through the whole level again. In this there are usually bonfires halfway through general "levels".