Poll: Dark Souls isn't hard, its just douchey with its checkpoints

[viranimus]

Ehh honestly I do not mind dieing and having to go do a corpse run (though I hate dying on a Boss where you have no choice but to beat the boss or give up on your corpse.)

But seriously the long trek back I actually love. I love it the game makes me pay for my mistakes. Honestly it gives me time to strategize exactly what I am going to do to avoid the death this time instead of rushing in and essentially single player zerg rushing everything because you got a check point 4 feet from the bosses toilet. right next to the fog.

Even if that werent there, you have to look at it on the bright side. Every one of those deaths means that mobs were respawned for you, and as such you have a means to gain more XP. Its like banking up a treat for when you get beaten by a boss and in that "Its either me or you" popisition. So You might have "lost" 10k souls, but by the time you get back to your stain, you have another 5k on top of that and with how miserly the game is about giving up souls for you to use, you can use every last one you get.

Honestly I think that system is just fine. Yes its "repeating" the same content, but I know I have never felt that frustration specifically in this game (or demon's souls for that matter)

 

[Ragsnstitches]

OP's problem:
Looks at game, sees levels and bosses as separate entities.

That is not the case.

The boss and it's corresponding route is ONE entity. The difficulty is not just in pattern reading, but remaining patient and being cautious. If your getting frustrated after each successive beat down on you, the game is winning against you. Not because of the beatdown, that is ignorable since you have infinite lives, but because you are gradually losing patience.

How many times would you have bolted through an area for the 4th/5th time breaming with confidence or in a hurry to see new things, only to fuck up due to your cocksure approach? Or to finally get back to the boss only to get hammered by him again in a rush to beat him/collect your lost souls? Whatever the reason, that's what adds to the difficulty... not detracts from it.

Patterns are always easy to read, you're not special for seeing them, but your completely blind if you think that's what the public tout as difficulty. This game is PUNISHING, which is the more apt word to describe it. More often then not you also deserve it. The game advertises it's challenge from the get go... if you die it's due to lack of caution/skill/preparation.

You seem to fall short on patience which these games demand. That seems to be the source of your displeasure.

 

[Pearwood]

Honestly I think that system is just fine. Yes its "repeating" the same content, but I know I have never felt that frustration specifically in this game (or demon's souls for that matter)

World 5 in Demon's Souls sure as hell made me feel that frustration. It got easier when you remembered the enemies were weak to fire but still fuck Valley of Desolation. And fuck Blight Town for that matter. I still need to go back there as well to finish exploring that tree and the Demon Ruins

 

[Feylynn]

I think any alteration is pretty unnecessary, you should re-examine the path you're taking to get back to that boss because there is a shortcut hidden off to the side allowing you to get there in a minute or two from the firelink shrine.

Most of the bonfires of true convenience or shortcuts between them are hidden in order to reward exploration in an environment that would otherwise only punish you for spending extra time and risk outside of your normal path.

Also of note is that the reason most consider it fair? If you take every path, slowly, cautiously, attentively, and with respect. Treat every moment like it's your one and last life against a worthy foe, then you should very rarely die in this game.
It feeds off of frustration, don't let it win like that, set it down and come back with a fresh head if you are truly unable to do something.
I noticed getting worse the longer I played because every death is another run through the same thing that keeps making you sloppier.

On the note of checkpoints as difficulty themselves.
The skill to play extended sections flawlessly is mastery of something, that is what distant checkpoints look for in a player.
Dark Souls knows that any fool can pick of a controller and kill these common enemies some of the time, it wants you to kill them all every time. If you've ever died to any enemy in the game then that is proof you have not mastered it, it is still a threat to you, and has just as much business continuing to kill you as any boss in the game does.
Shorter checkpoints would require less focus and mastery to do a segment without mistakes.
More often then not those shortcuts I mentioned earlier will be your reward for doing these sections and you'll be able to then bypass areas entirely.

There is times when I agree with you that the game is just unfair, but that's because I'm busy being terrible and dying 50 times in the same level and just want to be done with it.
Other times I'm convinced the game is to easy but I know NG+ will wipe that thought out of my head.

 

[Kopikatsu]

The bosses are the easiest part of Dark Souls, though...

Cast Iron Flesh and you win...and Iron Flesh is a Pyromancy spell, so it doesn't even have any stat requirements.

 

[Aeonknight]

Oh the capra demon. That was annoying. You want hard, wait until you get to ornstein/smough.

Checkpoint isn an issue, boss battle is.

Ornstein/smough weren't that bad.

Four Kings however.... Stupid hard.

 

[Madara XIII]

TL,DR: Basically im sick of having to spend 10-15 minutes fighting my way to a boss i know is going to kill me meaning i have to do it all again, read the 4 suggestions above and tell me if you think they sound fair.

I actually do think it's fair. I've played plenty harder games than this, but however I will make a brief comparison to sustain my argument.
If you've ever played Devil May Cry 3 then you know that game is about as cheap as cheap can get while still being reasonable.

I say this because

1.) Health is scarce and you're pretty damn lucky to kill an enemy who coughs up green orbs

2.) Finding free heath to use for later is even more difficult. (Such as Devil Stars)

3.) The more Health Items you buy, the more expensive the next one gets.

Yes I mean it. It sucks IMO because I need that money to buy weapon upgrades and when I need a small devil star to help me make it through the next boss Inflation hits you like a *****!

4.) Little to no saves. If you want to save your progress you have to clear the mission, btw there's only 20 missions in game. So good luck not dying.

5.) F*CKING VERGIL!!!!!

Basically Dark Souls it taking its formula from predecessors such as DMC and Ninja Gaiden where it truly challenges the player through endurance and adding little to no room for error.

That formula may not always work well with every Hack and Slash game, but for all of the ones I've played so far it's quite cozy if you ask me.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Oh the capra demon. That was annoying. You want hard, wait until you get to ornstein/smough.

Checkpoint isn an issue, boss battle is.

Ornstein/smough weren't that bad.

Four Kings however.... Stupid hard.

Ornstein and Smough are hell on Earth.

Four Kings is literally the easiest boss in the game if you have any kind of endurance. Just equip a suit of armor that has high poise and you win. (Try Havel's set)

If you're a caster, throw on Iron Flesh. You win. Actually, if you aren't a caster, cast Iron Flesh anyway and you still win.

 

[Krion_Vark]

That's the OP's entire point, dying before the boss and having to redo the entire section is nothing but an extremely temporary inconvenience. The enemies have no real threat, just the boss.

Yeah, no.

Having a checkpoint right before the boss would take all the sting out of dying on the boss. That would be the "temporary inconvenience". It's obviously NOT a temporary inconvenience when the player spends several hours redoing a boss because each death costs him/her considerably more time than a quick reload (the player also sorta sucks, but that's another issue).

If you don't want that sort of experience, fine. Don't play it. The game sets out to kick you in the nuts. This was the developer's stated goal. Virtually all of these frustrating features were known well before release. To play the game now, discover this design philosophy, and then complain about it? Even after all the pub? It's like buying a pizza and complaining about all the cheese and tomato sauce.

If I were a meaner person, I'd say this kind of behavior qualifies a person as a complete fucking idiot. Thank god I'm nice.

If the game sets up to kick you in the nuts then why OH WHY WAS THE MAGE CLASS SO FUCKING BROKEN IN THE FIRST GAME. I mean I just stopped playing because I found no particular challenge in the "brutally" challenging game. I like playing my distnace characters and everytime I would bring up oh I play a mage people would quote me and say I had to play a melee character to get the full feel for the game. No you do not. Its a fucking RPG you SHOULD NOT need to not play a specific class to get the difficulty of a game.

Also I have not played Dark Souls yet and currently do not plan on buying it because of my experience with the last not being well rounded. Is there a mage class in Dark Souls and is it ridiculously broken like in Demon Souls?

 

[Aeonknight]

Oh the capra demon. That was annoying. You want hard, wait until you get to ornstein/smough.

Checkpoint isn an issue, boss battle is.

Ornstein/smough weren't that bad.

Four Kings however.... Stupid hard.

Ornstein and Smough are hell on Earth.

Four Kings is literally the easiest boss in the game if you have any kind of endurance. Just equip a suit of armor that has high poise and you win. (Try Havel's set)

If you're a caster, throw on Iron Flesh. You win. Actually, if you aren't a caster, cast Iron Flesh anyway and you still win.

Iron Flesh is the only reason I beat Four Kings. But it was still annoying when they'd do that Grab move of theirs and eat away at the duration timer.

 

[LeonLethality]

High-5 if you got Veni Vidi Vici

Do I get like, a thousand high fives?

Also on the topic of this, I think that Dark Souls is completely fair in its system, but that could be the "hardcore" in me talking since I love games that require a ton of player skill to beat such as Monster Hunter or God's Eater.

I have not actually played Dark Souls, but I've seen a few people playing it and so my opinion on it based on purely observation and experience in the skill based department.

 

[mjc0961]

*snip*

TC, I agree with you and everything that the people you quoted said. Demon's Souls was already hard enough because the enemies were challenging, the combat system allows for multiple ways to tackle things, and because of the traps. But then it adds in all this cheap bullshit about no checkpoints, wasting more time going through parts you mastered than letting you practice the part you failed at, and not even letting you pause the game.

Also, I think it's funny that the only thing the fans have to say is "you suck, it's your fault you died." Okay, even if it is my fault that I died, does that make it any less repetitive, boring, and obnoxious to have to replay all the easy stuff again? I say no, it doesn't. I need practice at the part where I died, but I can't get it because I spend more time replaying easy shit than actually being challenged. Playing Demon's Souls is more often than not a test of your tolerance for pointless repetition, not a test of your skill at the game.

Oh, and one last thing, it's usually not my fault that I died. It's usually the game developer's fault, because they failed to include a pause button. Sorry that I have a life outside of your game From Software, but sometimes I get an important phone call or can't avoid not running to the bathroom unless I wanted to soil myself. And you're going to make me replay 30 minutes of the game because of that?! Fuck you and fuck Demon's Souls.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Also I have not played Dark Souls yet and currently do not plan on buying it because of my experience with the last not being well rounded. Is there a mage class in Dark Souls and is it ridiculously broken like in Demon Souls?

There are three different mage classes and none of them are particularly 'broken'. Actually, they're harder to use than melee classes until you get the really good spells. The REALLY good spells are broken, but by the time you get them, melee people have ridiculously awesome armor. So it kind of evens out.

For one thing, you only get a limited number of casts per 'trip' and you have to rank up attunement slots if you want to be able to even use spells. Then comes increasing int/faith...

 

[Harry Mason]

I'm going to have to agree and say that the "Souls" series is not difficult, it's cheap.
There's a difference between the satisfaction of getting really good at something and moving through a game with grace and precision, and the act of slamming your head against a wall until you manage to break it.

I actually love the combat in Dark Souls, and given some less cheesy dying mechanics, the game could carry some real challenge and weight. I like that it forces you to be careful and manage your resources, but hate that that's the ONLY THING THE GAME KNOWS HOW TO DO. That's not challenge. It's bad game design.

I just completed a "no kill" run of Dues Ex: Human Revolution on the hardest difficulty setting. It was an incredible challenge, and by the time I was near the end of the game, I was ducking and weaving between cover, hitting the invisibility timer with flawless timing before rolling into base just as a guard turned his head, managing my incredibly scarce non-lethal resources diligently and precisely, and lining up shots with a flawless plan for hiding unconscious soldiers from their comrades already formulated in my head. It was hard as balls, but when I got good at it, it felt great!

Corpse Dragging is not fun, and smacking your face against a wall is not fun, but a good developer knows how to find that sweet spot between punishment and reward that kicks your ass but also makes you feel, on occasion, like YOU are kicking ass.

 

[TilMorrow]

What I find annoys me the most about Dark Souls is not the difficulty (which is annoying) but actually the fact the game seems really, and I mean really, short if you weren't dying every other second. There aren't that many bosses in the game making the slog seem pointless. But all the same the game is fun and thats why I keep playing. Oh yes I also hate the fact you mess up majorly and you have to start again... [sub]BLoody undead burg merchant showing off his katana[/sub]

 

[viranimus]

Honestly I think that system is just fine. Yes its "repeating" the same content, but I know I have never felt that frustration specifically in this game (or demon's souls for that matter)

World 5 in Demon's Souls sure as hell made me feel that frustration. It got easier when you remembered the enemies were weak to fire but still fuck Valley of Desolation. And fuck Blight Town for that matter. I still need to go back there as well to finish exploring that tree and the Demon Ruins

SHHHHHH your making me want to play and I cant right now due to midterms, or else that is all I will end up doing. Do you really want me t... /hears chime of PS3 starting up... DAMNIT!

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

I'll just link you to my post on a similar thread.

From here. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.316605-Dark-Souls-is-hard-only-because-its-tedious?page=4#12872859]

Right, so you bought into a franchise that is not only renowned for, but it's actual main selling point is, brutal difficulty. And you're pissed off that they delivered?

Stay classy, Escapist.

It's selling point is difficulty. It does not deliver that, and instead delivers cheap frustrating bullshit. I suppose it's hard in that it's hard to keep stomaching such nonsense, but that's not the kind of difficulty that a game should be praised for.

I think you have a strange definition of difficulty. Let's do a quick google search of the word, eh?

Noun:

1. The state or condition of being difficult.
2. A thing that is hard to accomplish, deal with, or understand.

I'd say cheap frustrating bullshit is covered under that. Is it hard to beat Dark Souls? Yes. Yes it is. Ergo, difficult. Whether or not that's something you enjoy is irrelevant, it still delivered on its promise.

 

[JoesshittyOs]

It seems like everybody thinks they're making a bold unheard of statement when they claim the game isn't hard.

The games hard. Take away the shitty checkpoints (which are there on purpose) and you still have a normal enemy that can kill you in two hits, a completely unforgiving death system, and bosses that will pretty much insta-kill you if you do not know the correct pattern.

Hard as it is to believe, (and don't take this as an insult, because I assure you it's not) you are not good at this game. There are people who play this that are instinctively learning the paths and patterns to take, going about the checkpoints very cautiously. Dying actually means something and has weight. You are to take steps to actively avoid dying as much as possible.

Finding doucehbag ways to get into a position where they can't hurt you is actually the point in this game.